Don't Write Us Off

[damienc]

This is what the Herald Sun is saying about our season and we are yet to play a game:


" ST KILDA is the slider of 2013. The Saints won 12 games under Scott Watters last year but it’s hard to see them replicating that feat, and they could have their worst season since the Malcolm Blight debacle a decade ago. Brendon Goddard is gone and the likes of Lenny Hayes, Nick Riewoldt, Leigh Montagna, Nick Dal Santo, and co aren’t getting any younger. The gulf in the Saints list is similar to the Dogs, who were exposed in 2012 for that reason. The fixture looks OK, so that should help secure a handful of wins, but it could be a while until the core group of talented teenagers the Saints are starting to assemble clicks. Tom Lee and Tom Hickey are raw but come with high hopes, and while the Saints are on the right track long term, you just get the feeling there could be a stack of pain to bear first."

If you break it down, the opinion appears to be based on BJ's departure and our aging stars. Our stars are getting older but they've still got plenty of fight left. BJ had not played well for the Saints for at least two seasons. In any case the team never revolved around him. I don't know about you but I'm not ready to throw in the towel. Our 2012 was neither fantastic nor a disaster. We didn't make the finals and granted we lost more than a few games by a handful of points that we should have won. But I would have thought that was cause for optimism not pessimism.It just isn't all doom and gloom. Lee, Hickey, TDL and Roberton are all battle hardened and ready to go.

No-one expected Sydney to win the flag in 2012 and they did. We had a new coach and a radically different game plan which takes time to implement properly. I'll join the chorus and say we have been waiting far too long for a flag. I'm sure everyone else on this forum shares that opinion but I see us going forward not backward in 2013. Quite frankly the Herald Sun's so called footy experts should stop interviewing their computer screens.

[St Ick]

All good, let us be the underdog. Its always easier to go out there with little external pressure and expectation.

[plugger66]

This is what the Herald Sun is saying about our season and we are yet to play a game:


" ST KILDA is the slider of 2013. The Saints won 12 games under Scott Watters last year but it’s hard to see them replicating that feat, and they could have their worst season since the Malcolm Blight debacle a decade ago. Brendon Goddard is gone and the likes of Lenny Hayes, Nick Riewoldt, Leigh Montagna, Nick Dal Santo, and co aren’t getting any younger. The gulf in the Saints list is similar to the Dogs, who were exposed in 2012 for that reason. The fixture looks OK, so that should help secure a handful of wins, but it could be a while until the core group of talented teenagers the Saints are starting to assemble clicks. Tom Lee and Tom Hickey are raw but come with high hopes, and while the Saints are on the right track long term, you just get the feeling there could be a stack of pain to bear first."

If you break it down, the opinion appears to be based on BJ's departure and our aging stars who keep getting older sadly. Our stars are getting older but they've still got some fight left. BJ has not played well for the Saints for at least two seasons. In any case the team never revolved around him. I don't know about you but I'm not ready to throw in the towel. Our 2012 was neither fantastic nor a disaster. We didn't make the finals and we lost more than a few games by a handful of points that we should have won. But I would have thought that was cause for optimism not pessimism.It just isn't all doom and gloom. Lee, Hickey, TDL and Roberton are all battle hardened and ready to go.

No-one expected Sydney to win the flag in 2012 and they did. We had a new coach and a radically different game plan which takes time to implement properly. I think we have waited far too long for a flag just like everyone else on this forum but I see us going forwards not backwards in 2013. Quite frankly the Herald Sun's so called footy experts should stop interviewing their computer screens.

So a person who is paid to have an opinion cant have an opinion that is negative to our club? what he says is pretty much common sense and I dont think more than one or two football commentators will have us in the 8 this year. Common sense suggests losing BJ and Gram and with our stars getting older we will slide down the ladder. Recruits look OK but there would have been threads in 2009 saying the same thing. Now none from that year are at the club. yes we can go on with who we have recrited but so have other clubs above and below us who have at least a few mid aged players with AFL experience. We have bugger all at the age they should be due to a pathetic 3 years of recuiting. And that will hurt the club for at least the next 5 years IMO.

I hope i am completely wrong. It will make 2013 more fun to watch.

[saint6709]

HS clueless on this one - saints will be the 'suprise' performers of 2013 - I think we will go on a 2009 style rampage

[borderbarry]

I expect we will have a "middle of the road" season in 2013, finishing somewhere between 7th and 11th. We need to get experience into our youngsters. Maybe we should rest some of our older players early.

[bergholt]

I expect we will have a "middle of the road" season in 2013, finishing somewhere between 7th and 11th. We need to get experience into our youngsters. Maybe we should rest some of our older players early.

Rest them for what? They'll be gone soon enough, they can rest in front of the TV then.

Finishing just outside the eight would be the worst possible result for us. No decent draft picks, no finals. Unless we get a clear picture of the transition to the next generation then we may as well finish 15th.

[QuestionOfAccuracy]

This is what the Herald Sun is saying about our season and we are yet to play a game:


" ST KILDA is the slider of 2013. The Saints won 12 games under Scott Watters last year but it’s hard to see them replicating that feat, and they could have their worst season since the Malcolm Blight debacle a decade ago. Brendon Goddard is gone and the likes of Lenny Hayes, Nick Riewoldt, Leigh Montagna, Nick Dal Santo, and co aren’t getting any younger. The gulf in the Saints list is similar to the Dogs, who were exposed in 2012 for that reason. The fixture looks OK, so that should help secure a handful of wins, but it could be a while until the core group of talented teenagers the Saints are starting to assemble clicks. Tom Lee and Tom Hickey are raw but come with high hopes, and while the Saints are on the right track long term, you just get the feeling there could be a stack of pain to bear first."

If you break it down, the opinion appears to be based on BJ's departure and our aging stars who keep getting older sadly. Our stars are getting older but they've still got some fight left. BJ has not played well for the Saints for at least two seasons. In any case the team never revolved around him. I don't know about you but I'm not ready to throw in the towel. Our 2012 was neither fantastic nor a disaster. We didn't make the finals and we lost more than a few games by a handful of points that we should have won. But I would have thought that was cause for optimism not pessimism.It just isn't all doom and gloom. Lee, Hickey, TDL and Roberton are all battle hardened and ready to go.

No-one expected Sydney to win the flag in 2012 and they did. We had a new coach and a radically different game plan which takes time to implement properly. I think we have waited far too long for a flag just like everyone else on this forum but I see us going forwards not backwards in 2013. Quite frankly the Herald Sun's so called footy experts should stop interviewing their computer screens.

So a person who is paid to have an opinion cant have an opinion that is negative to our club? what he says is pretty much common sense and I dont think more than one or two football commentators will have us in the 8 this year. Common sense suggests losing BJ and Gram and with our stars getting older we will slide down the ladder. Recruits look OK but there would have been threads in 2009 saying the same thing. Now none from that year are at the club. yes we can go on with who we have recrited but so have other clubs above and below us who have at least a few mid aged players with AFL experience. We have bugger all at the age they should be due to a pathetic 3 years of recuiting. And that will hurt the club for at least the next 5 years IMO.

I hope i am completely wrong. It will make 2013 more fun to watch.

Couldn't agree more.

Go to any football club's fan forums at this time of the year and they all will tell you that their recruits are really exciting, and are awesome. The proof will be in the pudding, and it isn't right to expect much from this year's recruits in 2013.

I'm not foreshadowing a huge slide from the side in 2013, but I think it's completely reasonable for people (including the media) to predict a negative year.

[St Ick]

I agree with you guys, but the recruitment of Roberton, Saad, Milera, Lee and Hickey does help us make up some ground for those wasted years of recruiting. Not enough to realistically win the big one but I still think we are a big chance to make the 8. BJ will be the only player we lost this year that will be missed.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

All good, let us be the underdog. Its always easier to go out there with little external pressure and expectation.

Agree. There will be almost no external expectations or pressures on us this year (because that HS view is the same one that seems to be shared by almost everyone who doesn't follow us) and I think that will be another reason on top of all those I've listed recently why we could easily enough improve this year on what we did last year (when not a whole heap went super-well for us).

I believe the pressures have gotten to us at times in the past few years, with all the expectations of winning a premiership and so on, and eventually I think the group were crushed by them, but this year there will be almost none of that (at least externally, initially at least) and I think it will be like a weight off the shoulders of the playing group, especially the ones that have been through it all.

That may be a curse, if they take the attitude of "well no-one expects anything of us, so we can just cruise and take it easy until retirement", or it may be a blessing, if they are highly motivated again and desperate to have one last crack at it with this group (which it appears they are- having a crack at it that is), because we may be able to get under a lot of guards and before anyone knows what's going on we are right back in the mix and hell-bent on staying there (especially off a relatively easy draw to start the year).

That is what it will all come down to for me (along with what sort of run we have with injuries, which is looking pretty good so far, touch wood). How we handle that lack of expectation and how motivated the group (especially the older ones) are to go super-hard and climb that mountain again. If they are not, we will slide without a doubt. If they are and they really believe that they are a chance again, as the club appears to believe they are (even if it's a slim one, that would need almost everything to go right) then I absolutely believe they still have a really good season in them as a group (as long as Lenny and Milney don't hit the wall this year), especially with many of the younger ones looking ready to shoulder more of the load at last (eg McEvoy, Steven, Stanley, Simpkin, Siposs, etc- plus those we've added).

As I've said recently, even with BJ gone, we still definitely enough "top end talent" (as long as none of those we really rely on hit the wall this year, or get bad injuries) to be able to mix it with the "big boys" (as evidenced by us finishing 4 close wins off the top 4 last season, after losing 4 games by 8 points or less, having the 5th best %, being the 4th highest scoring team and being ultra competitive in all our matches against the teams that finished in the top 4 (except for the last quarter against Hawthorn, when they finally broke us and our ridiculously undermanned backline), but I expect that this will be the first year in a long time that we start to get a decent number under 25 really starting to step up and carry their share of the load, which may be what the older group have been subconsciously waiting for since the 2010 GF loss, when they probably realised they weren't able to do it alone and without adequate support.

If they realise it's probably "now or never" with this group and give it everything they've got and get a bit of luck, then we can go far. Unlike teams like say Richmond, Essendon, or North (who have a brutal draw BTW) we know how to handle being right in the mix and aren't likely to be tentative when the whips are really cracking because of a lack of experience in big games and big situations. Half our team have spent most of their careers in finals teams and up at the pointy end of the ladder and that ought to be in our favour if we get off to a good start and go on with it.

Of course things may not go that well, and the competition for spots in the 8 will be absolutely fierce, but even if they don't, I find it extremely unlikely that we will be like the Bulldogs were this year. They were pretty much uncompetitive (they lost their last 11 games, by an average of something like 60 points! For us to become that uncompetitive it would require a remarkable turnaround on our season this year, when we were the ones handing out fairly regular thumpings to the weaker teams and were ultra competitive with the top 4 teams). They also had one of the weakest forward lines you'd ever want to see from an AFL club. We, on the other hand were the 4th highest scoring team in the comp this year and our forward line looks extremely likely to be even stronger this year than it was last, given the extra depth and competition for spots there and likelihood of natural improvement from the likes of Stanley, Saad, Siposs (if he plays forward) and Milera (plus of course the addition of Lee, who I'm still very confident will have a Saad-like immediate impact and TDL).

Those who reckon we are like the Bulldogs have not done their homework.

[Megsie]

Its always about BJ. Well here's a tip for the media: BJ was just the " 1st" to go
via free agency. Now it begins for ALL clubs. Let's see what is written about other
clubs in the future.........starting with the pies when they start departing for more money.
Oh yes the saints may be freed up money wise & go the grab.
GO SAINTS. we have unfinished business.

[philtee]

Could finish anywhere 6 to 12 this year. Sam Landsberger makes an early call and says we're heading south, that's OK.
Missing Goddard and Gram won't make a sliver of difference.

[bigcarl]

Let 'em write us off, it could work in our favour.

One thing about guys losing players like Goddard and Gram is that it opens up spots. Let's hope there are a few who recognise the opportunity and really step up.

[plugger66]

Could finish anywhere 6 to 12 this year. Sam Landsberger makes an early call and says we're heading south, that's OK.
Missing Goddard and Gram won't make a sliver of difference.

That is rubbish. We lose 40 games from last year, we lose our 4th B&F and a running HBF who was good enough to play 20 games. And almost APS who in this thread said we are going to be like the bulldogs last season. The article certainly doesnt say it.

And BC how does writing us off work in our favour. Is that like Lenny playing his last season and the players will find extra?

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

And almost APS who in this thread said we are going to be like the bulldogs last season. The article certainly doesnt say it.

If you read what I said carefully you will see that I didn't say it did. My post was just responding to a comment ick made and made very little reference to the article, if at all. They did draw a WB comparison in the article, but most of my post was just speaking generally and there are so many out there that think we are on the exact same path that the WB have gone down it's not funny. I've been hearing it consistently for months and months, especially from those who follow the Bulldogs, but from many others as well.

I was having arguments with some who follow the WB as far back as when we met them in R3 last season and they were convinced that we were in the exact same position that they were and I pointed out to them how we were not and as the year went on that was proved to be more and more correct, as they became less and less competitive, while we remained very consistent and very highly competitive, while managing to get games into many of the younger ones on our list. Our clubs are on very different paths.

As I've been saying, I believe we are on the same sort of path Sydney chose to take after they dropped right out of the finals in 2009 (when they finished 12th, with a % of 90odd, after years in the finals) when they lost all of Barry Hall (who kicked 80 goals the next year), Darren Jolly (who had 680 hitouts that year) and Michael O'Loughlin, at the end of that season and had Brett Kirk going into what was to be his last year (yet they rose to 5th the following year, when all in sundry probably expected them to slide further), whereas the WB look to have gone down more of the "traditional rebuild" path, of "playing the kids", becoming uncompetitive and staring down years out of the finals, with the hopes that they will get enough "gun kids" to be able to get back into strong contention again in a few years.

That is all I wanted to point out, to anyone who think's we're going the same way as the WB, whether it be Sam Lansberger, if he think's that, or all those others that I've heard who think that.

[Eastern]

The PATHETIC 3 (to 5) years recruiting also concerns me and I also see it coming back to bite us over the next 3-5 years. Do we blame Ross Lyon for this? Do we blame John Peake, the recruiting manager who we sacked for this? Or do we blame The Board or someone else for this? No matter which way you look at it, it's done and we have to move forward with what we've got. I think this could have been one of the reasons that the club chased Mitch Brown the way they did.

I believe that if we can hold our 2012 position in 2013 we will exceed expectations. There is every chance we will be sliders in 2013. Let's hope that we don't slide too far !!

[magnifisaint]

It's just an opinion which has as much weight as any other opinion on this site.

What is that saying about opinions?

[Hurricane]

They have been writing articles like this on us for the last few years even after making the Grand Final in 09 not one article or ladder predictor I read said we would be in the top 4 and even a few had us out of the 8. I dont take much stock in these articles. Its just opinion. I am personally of the opinion we could improve and make 5-8 next year and load up for a top 4 finish in 2014.

BANG BANG

[Megamaguire]

Watters seems keen on establishing a fresh ethic amongst the team. It'll be his second chance to coach a full season.
If we are kucky (as Saints fans) Scott will demonstrate the wherewithall to convince this quickly evolving team to bring great performances to each round of the 2013 season. Whether these performances result in wins or losses will no doubt greatly effect our emotions but if they spell a new determination and quality of team performance that inspires us all it could also mark the beginning of an upward climb.

that would hearten me greatly and bring some satisfaction that we are well and truely headed in the right direction.

I'm looking for wins but also something else as well.


Go Watterman!

GO SAINTS!

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

For anyone who is wondering who Sam Landsberger is, watch this video of Mason Wood and then tell us how much stock you put in his opinion of us after you see who is he is (he comes into it at the 58 sec mark). He looks like he is about 17 years old and that they've grabbed him from here or BigFooty to write articles for them. http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/pickme/ ... 6513291422

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

The PATHETIC 3 (to 5) years recruiting also concerns me and I also see it coming back to bite us over the next 3-5 years. Do we blame Ross Lyon for this? Do we blame John Peake, the recruiting manager who we sacked for this? Or do we blame The Board or someone else for this? No matter which way you look at it, it's done and we have to move forward with what we've got. I think this could have been one of the reasons that the club chased Mitch Brown the way they did.

I believe that if we can hold our 2012 position in 2013 we will exceed expectations. There is every chance we will be sliders in 2013. Let's hope that we don't slide too far !!

Many refer a lot to those bad years of recruiting and they were relatively bad, as I've pointed out myself, especially 2009, which was horrid, but it's not all bad news, as we did get the likes of David Armitage, Ben McEvoy, Jack Steven, Tom Simpkin, Rhys Stanley, Arryn Siposs out of them and they all look likely to be able to play a lot of footy for us going forward, but since Pelchan (who built Hawthorn's premiership list- he is extremely highly regarded by many in the industry, including the AFL itself, I hear) and co. took over late in 2011, I believe we have done terrifically well with the picks we've had, to undo a lot of that bad work and help us to avoid bottoming out like we would have if we'd not had a good year or two of trading/drafting.

It all started out last year when we turned pick 20 into Ahmed Saad (who I reckon is going to have a ripper career and this year was just a taste of what he will do once he builds his tank more and learns the game more- remember that it was only his 4th full season of Aussie rules footy in his life and he made a LOT of mistakes this year, yet was still good for almost two goals a game, playing 2nd fiddle to Milne), Terry Milera and Seb Ross and we then looked to unearth someone with both of our next picks as well in Daniel Markworth (who many expected to go in the first round of that draft and who, despite being injured now, showed a lot in his first year and would have been a very strong chance of playing seniors this year) and then Jack Newnes (who the club really rates) and then we also got Beau Wilkes, who could have a good year next year and go on with it, if things go his way, or at worst be good depth. Then we got Sam Dunell in the rookie draft and he also showed a lot in his brief appearances this year, and is another that ought to improve immensely once he gets another preseason or two under his belt, as he went from playing ammos to senior AFL within 12 months. He apparently has a fantastic attitude and work ethic and so on, so will give himself every opportunity to have a very good career. He's apparently come on a hell of a lot in a brief period of time, after he shot up in height. We also got Darren Minchington, who is another that looks like he could be a terrific and who some have a very high opinion of, thanks to how he started off this year and his speed, skills, "x-factor" and the fact he went from playing club footy to senior VFL in less than a year, at 18yo.

I'm not super confident of Webster, Lever, Shenton, or Staley, at this stage and I'm also not sure what to expect of Jacko Ferguson (although it won't surprise me in the least if he ends up being pretty good, due to how he's performed to a high level at a very young age in the VFL), but I am very confident that all of Saad, Newnes, Ross, Milera, Dunell, Markworth and Minchington have what it takes to make it and I also believe that Wilkes is only a couple of really good games against strong opposition away from being confident enough to go on with it at senior level.

Then there was this year and I'm even more confident that we have done well with our drafting and trading this year, as you would expect, given we had higher picks to work with.

We turned picks 12, 13, 37 and 57 into Lee, Hickey, Wright, White, Saunders and TDL, and while I was pretty confused with the TDL selection, I like the others a lot, having followed the draft closely this year and having also been told a lot about them by someone who really knows their stuff when it comes to all this. Some, like Sam Lansberger might have thought we did badly out of the Lee deal, for instance, but the likes of Emma Quayle and Kevin Sheahan beg to differ (as does Matt Rendell) and I know who I'm going to go with on this one, as they have about 1000x more credibility and contacts at the clubs when it comes to this sort of stuff than he does.

We also picked up Brodie Murdoch and Lewis Pierce and the ready-to-go Dylan Roberton, so we have a heap of "youth" on our list going forward and ample just at this stage who are in that 20-25 age group who can play immediately (Mac, Steven, Armo, Rhys, Siposs, Saad, Lee, Simpkin, Roberton, Hickey, TDL). For those that don't realise it, we have 29 on our lists who will be 26 or younger at the start of next season and then there are those we will pick up in the next couple of years, as the likes of Roo and co. wind down, plus all those we could get through trading or free agency in the meantime, so I'm not worried at all. I believe we've righted the ship very well in the past 15 months and that it will enable us to stay very competitive, somewhat like Sydney did after they dropped out of the finals in 2009.

We'd probably be in trouble if all the older ones on our list were going to retire at the exact same time (although Sydney went from 12th to 5th after losing all of Hall, Jolly and O'Laughlin in one hit and with Kirk in his last year, on the back of one really good trade/draft period), but it is far more likely that they will be staggered over a 4-5 year period, so that gives us ample time to transition the next generation in, as Sydney have done and to bring in anyone we pick up through trading and now free agency in the meantime.

[plugger66]

Sam landsberger had Lee as the 6th best impact of players drated last season so I doubt he thinks we did badly. Unlike most on here though he probably doesnt rate our picks any better than any other clubs so on top of losing BJ and Gram and our stars getting older he has come to the logical conclusion that we will drop down the ladder.

I will say it again and again. You cannot lose basically 3 years of recruiting and have stars who are getting older and still hope to climb the ladder. Comparing us to Sydney is only relevent if they had 3 years in the late 2000's when they basically got not one star player. Pretty sure in that time that got 2-4 star players depending on your view of what a star is.

[saintspremiers]

Sam landsberger had Lee as the 6th best impact of players drated last season so I doubt he thinks we did badly. Unlike most on here though he probably doesnt rate our picks any better than any other clubs so on top of losing BJ and Gram and our stars getting older he has come to the logical conclusion that we will drop down the ladder.

I will say it again and again. You cannot lose basically 3 years of recruiting and have stars who are getting older and still hope to climb the ladder. Comparing us to Sydney is only relevent if they had 3 years in the late 2000's when they basically got not one star player. Pretty sure in that time that got 2-4 star players depending on your view of what a star is.

Spot on plugger my friend (often fiend!).

It's just that there are too many rose coloured deluded flag dreamers on this site.

We may make the eight if everything goes right. But it's a big if.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Sam landsberger had Lee as the 6th best impact of players drated last season so I doubt he thinks we did badly. Unlike most on here though he probably doesnt rate our picks any better than any other clubs so on top of losing BJ and Gram and our stars getting older he has come to the logical conclusion that we will drop down the ladder.

At the time we picked up Lee, Sam apparently bagged the s*** out of the club for "throwing away another first round pick on a nobody" or words to that effect (either in an article, or on Twitter). Our recruiting team were furious with him and I'd say let him and/or the HS know about it in no uncertain terms and I imagine that after that he probably did some actual research into him and found out that he is a lot better than he thought he was and consequently has changed his tune on him. If you have any contacts at all at the club, especially anyone close to the recruiting team, ask them what the club thought of his comments about the Lee deal when it first happened.

I will say it again and again. You cannot lose basically 3 years of recruiting and have stars who are getting older and still hope to climb the ladder. Comparing us to Sydney is only relevent if they had 3 years in the late 2000's when they basically got not one star player. Pretty sure in that time that got 2-4 star players depending on your view of what a star is.

You can say it as many times as you like, but that doesn't make it true. If these things were that easy to predict you would be retired off your sports bet winnings.

As for Sydney in the late 2000's, on top of losing all of Hall, Jolly and O'Laughlin at the end of 2009 and and having Kirk coming into his final year in 2010, their "youth" was apparently bloody ordinary. Someone bumped an old thread on Sydney, on BF, from late 2009 (by someone who followed Sydney, who was saying that they would be OK, when pretty much everyone else said they were GOING DOWN HARD) and it has a list of the "kids" they had on their list at the time and it was one of the most ordinary lists you'd ever want to see (prior to that year's draft). Like looking at a list of everyone we drafted from 2008-2010, maybe even worse. Hardly any of them are still at their club and most I'd never even heard of. I think you'll find that by far most of their good drafting has been done since the 2009 draft (and on the back of it and their good trades that year they went back up to 5th the next year) and prior to that they didn't have anyone that everyone was expecting would be a "star", that I'm aware of, so we probably have as much chance of 2-4 of ours from our recent years getting to that level as they did. I'm already happy to say Siposs will reach that level and Steven may as well, if he stays out of trouble and really knuckles down. Rhys Stanley? Who knows?

(Don't forget that Sydney only had one in their GF team this year that was drafted in the top 10 of a national draft (Jude Bolton, in the 1990's!) so most of their "stars" came from much higher picks, or the rookie draft or whatever, so you don't need to have a list full of top 10 or 20 picks (they only have 4 of them on their whole list) to win a flag, especially now that free agency is here.)

Then there are all those we've picked up through trading and drafting in the past two years, so if Sydney could turn it around that much from 2009 to 2010, after finishing 12th in 2009 and losing all of Hall, Jolly and O'Laughlin after that season and with Kirk in his final year, then we can sure as s*** climb up the ladder next year.

It doesn't mean it will happen, as a lot would have to right for it to, but to suggest it "can't happen" is ridiculous and incorrect.

[plugger66]

Sam landsberger had Lee as the 6th best impact of players drated last season so I doubt he thinks we did badly. Unlike most on here though he probably doesnt rate our picks any better than any other clubs so on top of losing BJ and Gram and our stars getting older he has come to the logical conclusion that we will drop down the ladder.

At the time we picked up Lee, Sam apparently bagged the s*** out of the club for "throwing away another first round pick on a nobody" or words to that effect (either in an article, or on Twitter). Our recruiting team were furious with him and I'd say let him and/or the HS know about it in no uncertain terms and I imagine that after that he probably did some actual research into him and found out that he is a lot better than he thought he was and consequently has changed his tune on him. If you have any contacts at all at the club, especially anyone close to the recruiting team, ask them what the club thought of his comments about the Lee deal when it first happened.

I will say it again and again. You cannot lose basically 3 years of recruiting and have stars who are getting older and still hope to climb the ladder. Comparing us to Sydney is only relevent if they had 3 years in the late 2000's when they basically got not one star player. Pretty sure in that time that got 2-4 star players depending on your view of what a star is.

You can say it as many times as you like, but that doesn't make it true. If these things were that easy to predict you would be retired off your sports bet winnings.

As for Sydney in the late 2000's, on top of losing all of Hall, Jolly and O'Laughlin at the end of 2009 and and having Kirk coming into his final year in 2010, their "youth" was apparently bloody ordinary. Someone bumped an old thread on Sydney, on BF, from late 2009 (by someone who followed Sydney, who was saying that they would be OK, when pretty much everyone else said they were GOING DOWN HARD) and it has a list of the "kids" they had on their list at the time and it was one of the most ordinary lists you'd ever want to see (prior to that year's draft). Like looking at a list of everyone we drafted from 2008-2010, maybe even worse. Hardly any of them are still at their club and most I'd never even heard of. I think you'll find that by far most of their good drafting has been done since the 2009 draft (and on the back of it and their good trades that year they went back up to 5th the next year) and prior to that they didn't have anyone that everyone was expecting would be a "star", that I'm aware of, so we probably have as much chance of 2-4 of ours from our recent years getting to that level as they did. I'm already happy to say Siposs will reach that level and Steven may as well, if he stays out of trouble and really knuckles down. Rhys Stanley? Who knows?

(Don't forget that Sydney only had one in their GF team this year that was drafted in the top 10 of a national draft (Jude Bolton, in the 1990's!) so most of their "stars" came from much higher picks, or the rookie draft or whatever, so you don't need to have a list full of top 10 or 20 picks (they only have 4 of them on their whole list) to win a flag, especially now that free agency is here.)

Then there are all those we've picked up through trading and drafting in the past two years, so if Sydney could turn it around that much from 2009 to 2010, after finishing 12th in 2009 and losing all of Hall, Jolly and O'Laughlin after that season and with Kirk in his final year, then we can sure as s*** climb up the ladder next year.

It doesn't mean it will happen, as a lot would have to right for it to, but to suggest it "can't happen" is ridiculous and incorrect.

Firstly I doubt a reporter would change their mind on a player because the club were furious because I doubt the club would even bother contacting the writer but I do know a couple of people in recruiting so I could find out if I could be bothered which I cant.

Now you want to compare us to Sydney and to me the important years of trading were in the late 2000's because those players will now be coming into their prime.

I went through the drafts, trades, rookies and rookie elevation in 2008 and 2009 and in the time we have got Stanley and Ray and that is it I believe. Happy to be shown to be wrong. In that time the Swans have got Johnston, Hannebery, Pyke, Smith, Shaw, Mumford, McGlynn, Kennedy, Rohan, Jetta and reid. I think all bar one played in the 2012 premiership time. Now this doesnt mean the players we got in the last 2 years cant be as good, but it does mean we are a good 2 to 3 years from coming good again even if our players are as good. My point stands, 2 to 3 years of crap recruiting puts us miles behind the Swans. I think all we can do is read and weep about those pathetic recruiting years.

What that says is you can trade your way out of trouble but it also says we need to hope we traded and drafted as well as Sydney and we also need to wait. And to see how hard it is to successfully recruit, our 2010 draft which many on here have said was a very good one has only had one player still at the club to have played over 5 games so in hindsight it doesnt look the answer either.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

the thing i find strange is the link to us going down to the depths of 2002 ... in 2002 we finished 2nd last so does the reporter really think we are going to finish bottom 2 in a comp with GWS GC Port and the WB ?? we will more than likely slide but to the depths of 2002 i dont think so ...