The Moment I Saw

[damienc]

The other day I had an epiphany. One of the those moments of extreme clarity when you know that something just wasn't right. I was thinking about the legacy of Ross Lyon and BJ. I know it's a topic that has been done to death on this forum.

But I just reckon we are so much better off without them.

I say that with absolutely no malice intended. People think the both of them betrayed us.

But I reckon the biggest problem with Ross Lyon is not that he is a bad bloke but he is a coach who only knows how to come second. He will never coach the Fremantle Dockers to a premiership IMO in the same way he was never going to deliver with the Saints.

He just doesn't have it in him to coach an AFL team to a premiership.

For a while his largely negative tactics worked: flood the backline, choke possession etc.

But then the Opposition coaches figured out what he was doing and put two or three players on Nick and our forward line became a reboundathon for our opponents. Plus he made that uttterly unforgiveable error of allowing Luke Ball to walk away from the club for zero compensation. To add copious salt into the wounds Ball ended up at the filth. Lyon should have started Ball in that Grand Final. I reckon he would have helped us win it. These were serious blunders of the unforgiveable kind IMO.

Similarly BJ was a good player in the Ross Lyon era but he was not a good fit for the Watters game plan. I reckon he knew it. Deep down the club knew it and that's why he left plus he got paid a heap of money to do so. So what is my point?

That I think we finally have a coach who will win us a premiership. It would be great if it was this year but I'm not getting too excited.

I like his ideas. I like the way he has reshaped the team. I like the way he talks. I like the personnel he and the club has invested in. On and off the field. In short he is the right man for the time.

I think he has given our aging stars a new lease of life. They know time is running out. So they have nothing to lose and everything to gain. That can be a big motivator. If Sydney can come from nowhere and win a premiership against the odds so can we.

If we can destroy other teams in the way we destroyed Adelaide ( I know they were missing all their stars etc) in that first NAB cup game then we have a lot of reasons to be optimistic, hopeful call it what you like about this year.

[joffaboy]

But I reckon the biggest problem with Ross Lyon is not that he is a bad bloke but he is a coach who only knows how to come second. He will never coach the Fremantle Dockers to a premiership IMO in the same way he was never going to deliver with the Saints.

He just doesn't have it in him to coach an AFL team to a premiership.

What unmittigated revisionist garbage.

What complete and utter bollocks.

Heres a hint Einstein. 7.7 to 7.1 in GF v Geelong halftime. If the players could kick straight, if Milne, running into an open goal from 30 metres out shanks it and dribbles it along the ground, if Schneider misses an open goal 10 metres out right in front, if Clarke doesn't get run down from behind, costing us a sham goal, we would have won easily.

Once again a simpleton lets the players off the hook.

2010 - we, like everyone else in the comp, are getting flogged by Collingwood in the GF. Four goals down at halftime and we could have been 8. Lyon throws Blake and Kosi in the ruck, Ray onto Swan, Gilbo up forward and if not for the bounce of the ball in the final minute we would have won it from nowhere.

I hate this simpletons proclimations three years after the event.

Where was this wonderful analysis after we won 19 in a row? After Roo went down for three months and we still got to the big dance?

Just a fluke? We didn't have a coach? What complete and utter GARBAGE.

Stupid, ignorant, banal, vacuous TRIPE.

Just incredibly embarrassing and dumb

[Austinnn]

what happened to "with respect I must disagree"? did someone run over your cat today?

[desertsaint]

Today?
Some bastard ran over his cat SEVEN years ago!

For gawds sake, someone get Joffa a new cat!

[whiskers3614]

Lyon lovers will accept no criticism of "master coach" writing it off as revisionism.
fact is some of us were expressing concerns right in the middle of that supposed golden era.
EG the Hawthorn game late in 2009, I wonder if we hadn't have won would it have been subject to tanking enquiries?

[saintspremiers]

Great OP.

In some respects, RL was a one trick pony like GT.

It's just that RL's game plan was very solid and took a while to crack.

[Wrote for Luck]

I think more people like Watters than Lyon. He is more likeable, maybe more astute, and less likely to desert his players.
Goddard no doubt bought into the career coach philosophy as a player and went for the salary. And now look.
Reckon Lyon secretly misses Victorian footy and press. And I think with Goddard, he knows he lost integrity and is now seen as a bit of a joke.
Lyon nearly won us a grand final though. There is no doubt about that. And if Goddard didn't get a double injury in the 2009 grand final, we would have won it.
But but but. So so so.

[skeptic]

I love the revisionist argument

Apparently because the players missed some shots in the 1st half, RL couldn't have coached better!!!

Esp in the second half.

Moves like keeping Luke Ball on the bench or playing Dempster as a forward, not manning up on Chapman successfully don't mean anything coz we missed some shots.

And of course in 2010 there was the brillance of playing persevering with donuts McQualter for 15 games for a return of 15 possessions but he did "his role", Jason "I'm too unfit to run" Gram, Dempster who was unestablished and average at that point, and of course Clint "I can't tag anymore or kick the ball" Jones to name a few... though yes he did coach well in game 1.

Would have been nice if he tried developing a few players DURING the season

You have also inconveniently ignored letting Ball go for FREE which was a major failure no matter what spin you put on it

All of that said, I don't really u/s the op - just didn't care for the response
I don't get the point RE Goddard and I doubt RL will coach Freo to a flag if he doesn't get it this season. That's coz I think RL is overrated as a coach and relies too much on his stars.
Don't get me wrong RL ain't no dummy but at the same time quite a few historical strugglers at the Saints blossomed quickly after he left. And the Saints drop in fortunes coincided with Roo's fall away

[Dave McNamara]

what happened to "with respect I must disagree"? did someone run over your cat today?

Today? Some bastard ran over his cat SEVEN years ago! For gawds sake, someone get Joffa a new cat!

I recommend you get a Burmese Joff.

Burmese are vocal like the Siamese but have softer, sweeter meows. They are very affectionate and enjoy company, being a people-oriented breed who form strong bonds with their owners and gravitate toward human activity. Burmese need a reasonable amount of human attention, are not as independent as other breeds and are not suited to being left alone for extended periods of time. The Cat Fanciers' Association (CFA) breed information on the Burmese implies that all survival instinct of flight or fight seems to have been bred out of them.[5] However, other sources[6] note that, while rarely aggressive with humans, Burmese cats can defend themselves quite well against other cats, even those larger than themselves.

Burmese maintain kitten-like interests and energy throughout their adulthood. They have a number of dog-like characteristics, often learning to play fetch and tag.[5] Burmese are good with children and dogs. They are suitable as an indoor breed of cat, will usually stay more affectionate if kept indoors and are comfortable travelling in cars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmese_(cat)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwlCGZn7 ... detailpage
How cute is that? And check those eyes at the end.

Actually Joff, as they are known for having absolutely no road-sense, and can be too friendly for their own good, perhaps your departed cat was a Burmese?

[howlinwolf]

I think Ross Lyon could easily coach a side to a premiership.
If he ever does depends on which club offers him the most money.
If that club has the cattle then it will happen.

I think we over achieved in 2009/2010 considering our cattle.

[SainterK]

Because Milne and Schneids had never missed easy shots before?

Meh.

I'm over that argument.

They missed shots prior to 2009, after 2009, and I'm sure they will in the future.

It's a part of their game, something Ross would of taken into account when HE selected them.

[whiskers3614]

I think Ross Lyon could easily coach a side to a premiership.
If he ever does depends on which club offers him the most money.
If that club has the cattle then it will happen.

I think we over achieved in 2009/2010 considering our cattle.

People on here use the but for a "cruel bounce &toe poke" we would have gone back to back and Lyon got us there.
How about the argument that we were "lucky" to beat Footscray in either prelim.
Had we finished 4th and 4th would the Lyon worship still go on?

[bobmurray]

I think Ross Lyon could easily coach a side to a premiership.
If he ever does depends on which club offers him the most money.
If that club has the cattle then it will happen.

I think we over achieved in 2009/2010 considering our cattle.

People on here use the but for a "cruel bounce &toe poke" we would have gone back to back and Lyon got us there.
How about the argument that we were "lucky" to beat Footscray in either prelim.
Had we finished 4th and 4th would the Lyon worship still go on?

Good point...

Also the main reason Chris Grant can't stand StKilda.....

Love hearing him bleat

[matrix]

[Old Mate]

Today?
Some bastard ran over his cat SEVEN years ago!

For gawds sake, someone get Joffa a new cat!

7 years since he's had pussy? no wonder why he's always so angry.

[kosifantutti]

I think Ross Lyon could easily coach a side to a premiership.
If he ever does depends on which club offers him the most money.
If that club has the cattle then it will happen.

I think we over achieved in 2009/2010 considering our cattle.

People on here use the but for a "cruel bounce &toe poke" we would have gone back to back and Lyon got us there.
How about the argument that we were "lucky" to beat Footscray in either prelim.
Had we finished 4th and 4th would the Lyon worship still go on?

Well we smashed them in 2010 so I'd say its a stupid argument.

[bobmurray]

Today?
Some bastard ran over his cat SEVEN years ago!

For gawds sake, someone get Joffa a new cat!

7 years since he's had pussy? no wonder why he's always so angry.

Good one...maybe you are on the money

Might be 7 years since he jumped the fence

[bigcarl]

Great OP.

In some respects, RL was a one trick pony like GT.

It's just that RL's game plan was very solid and took a while to crack.

No plan B are you saying?

[Cairnsman]

Done to death...what a deadset understatement of massive proportions.

[whiskers3614]

For what it's worth
Lyon NOT highly regarded by administrative and support staff at St. Kilda fc, not a lot of sadness at his departure!

[bobmurray]

Done to death...what a deadset understatement of massive proportions.

What post are you referring to

[joffaboy]

I fkn hate cats.

[matrix]

[joffaboy]

I love the revisionist argument

Apparently because the players missed some shots in the 1st half, RL couldn't have coached better!!!

Esp in the second half.

Almost as dumb as the stupid OP.

Read it. he makes a definitive statement that Lyon can only ever come second.

7.70 to 7.1 with easy missed shots by the Saints.

Indisputable fact.

Moves like keeping Luke Ball on the bench or playing Dempster as a forward, not manning up on Chapman successfully don't mean anything coz we missed some shots.

Facts not subjective maybes.

7.7 to 7.1 is an indisputable fact. Your crap is subjective BS.

And of course in 2010 there was the brillance of playing persevering with donuts McQualter for 15 games for a return of 15 possessions but he did "his role", Jason "I'm too unfit to run" Gram, Dempster who was unestablished and average at that point, and of course Clint "I can't tag anymore or kick the ball" Jones to name a few... though yes he did coach well in game 1.

So the Lyon moves at halftime didn't get us back in the game? OK

Would have been nice if he tried developing a few players DURING the season

They were primed to WIN a flag. They won 19 in a row in 2009 and 16 or so in 2010. It was to win a flag FFS. You want to experiment and drop players from a winning team.

NOW is the time to develop players when we have very little chance to win a flag. God save me

You have also inconveniently ignored letting Ball go for FREE which was a major failure no matter what spin you put on it

Conviently???? The OP was talking about Lyon not being able to coach. Sure it was a stuff up. But because Lyon stuffed up he couldn't coach????? How fkn bizarre

All of that said, I don't really u/s the op - just didn't care for the response

cry me a river. I dont care for imbicilic BS like "LYON cant coach." as the OP STATED as FACT.

I don't get the point RE Goddard and I doubt RL will coach Freo to a flag if he doesn't get it this season. That's coz I think RL is overrated as a coach and relies too much on his stars.

personally I think Lyon is a parasite that takes over developed lists and squeezes them for all they are worth. He left the Saints in a poor position when he left and Scotty is fixing it.

But that is a seperate argument. To suggest that Lyon cant coach and didn't or couldn't win a flag is just total revisionist BS, considering many factors go into winning and losing a GF.

And who said Lyon couldn't have coached better in 2009? Doesn't detract from the fact that the players killed that game for us by butchering it in front of goal.

Lyon was forced to make changes in 2010 out of desperation and the fact Gardiner was injured. Still those changes almost won us the flag. To blithely dismiss lyons ability like the dumb OP did is sheer ignorance at best, venal vindictive stupidity at worst.

Don't get me wrong RL ain't no dummy but at the same time quite a few historical strugglers at the Saints blossomed quickly after he left. And the Saints drop in fortunes coincided with Roo's fall away

[/quote]

I do agree with this and am happy he is gone. But the OP point balnk STATED like it was a given fact that Lyon couldn't coach which is just complete and absolute BS.

[joffaboy]

Lyon lovers will accept no criticism of "master coach" writing it off as revisionism.
fact is some of us were expressing concerns right in the middle of that supposed golden era.
EG the Hawthorn game late in 2009, I wonder if we hadn't have won would it have been subject to tanking enquiries?

But we did win it

Everyone whinged and b!tched when Lyon rested 10 palyers for a meaningless game in Tassie.

Fact is the team was so well drilled the replacements did exactly what was required.

As for a Lyon lover . Never liked him, never liked the gameplan, but I did like the results.

So even during the 19 straight wins you weren't happy and expressing "concerns".

You must be a sad arsed bastard then

So after Lyon coached us to two consecutive GF, one without the marquee player for 15 rounds, you reckon he couldn't coach?

Yeah OK