Is Billings and co really benefitting from this?

[Moods]

I watched Jack come onto the scene against the Bombers. He was composed, confident, and his skills were great. There was no way he would maintain that standard, I accept that. For the first time, though, in 18mths I am starting to question our drafting/recruiting strategy. Personally I think Jack is going backwards at a million miles an hour and I don't think as a club we are doing him any favours. He is being played in the ones because he's our first round draft pick and we probably don't have anyone much better to come in for him. His confidence is getting smashed every week. If he was playing in a strong team he would be protected and gifted some soft delivery. He would also be up and down b/w the 1's and 2's as almost all 1st year players are. Restoring his confidence, learning a few more tricks in a less pressure cooker environment, then coming back into the team. I've seen him and a few of the young blokes really struggle these last few weeks. I know we're playing the top teams now, so this time of year was always going to be hard.

Just wondering if we had have thrown the baby out with the bath water. We need more senior players playing. Some of these kids simply aren't ready, and I'm not sure just gifting them games every week is helping them at all long or short term.

[BigMart]

No, he should have been spelled. Two weeks ago.

He was rag dolled last week and again this week he copped a physical lesson

He looks to have lost self belief

[savatage]

Just wondering if we had have thrown the baby out with the bath water. We need more senior players playing. .

Such as who?

[SainterK]

More seniors?

Nah.

He is a young kid a couple of games into his career, more senior bodies don't change that...a rest might though.

[Devilhead]

He looks to have lost self belief

What a load of codswallop!!

Did Hayes, Roo and Kosi lose their self belief when we were smashed in thier first few seasons

I am sure Billings understands exactly where the team is at and I have no doubt he also understands that if continues to work hard and learn from these losses then things will turn around

If he has lost self belief this early in his career he may as well hang his boots up

[thejiggingsaint]

Agree! I'm sure Jack will become a GUN! (regardless of the teams current form)

[plugger66]

Dont think it matters really in the long run. Probably the more imprtant thing is he doesnt get into bad habits. The thing is we are likely to be as bad if not worse next season so he going to go through this next year as well as will our number one pick at the end of this season. And we may not have Lenny either to help the young guys. Getting smashed shouldnt matter but bad habits may.

[ChelseaGuy]

Dont think it matters really in the long run. Probably the more imprtant thing is he doesnt get into bad habits. The thing is we are likely to be as bad if not worse next season so he going to go through this next year as well as will our number one pick at the end of this season. And we may not have Lenny either to help the young guys. Getting smashed shouldnt matter but bad habits may.

Interesting, is that something you are noticing?

My concern with beatings like what we are suffering is that players go into survival mode and stop thinking about the team thing.

[plugger66]

Dont think it matters really in the long run. Probably the more imprtant thing is he doesnt get into bad habits. The thing is we are likely to be as bad if not worse next season so he going to go through this next year as well as will our number one pick at the end of this season. And we may not have Lenny either to help the young guys. Getting smashed shouldnt matter but bad habits may.

Interesting, is that something you are noticing?

My concern with beatings like what we are suffering is that players go into survival mode and stop thinking about the team thing.

They certainly do IMO as well. No I havent spotted anything yet about Billings. Im sure tecoaches look much closer at things than I ever could. Anyway i think its moot point regarding Billings and resting because I think he will be rested or dropped, probably dropped, this week.

[perfectionist]

...Did...Roo and Kosi lose...self belief when ....smashed in thier first few seasons...

Neither Nick nor Kosi were smashed in their first few seasons. Kosi won best first year player in 2001, and Nick was injured for most of the year. In the next year, Nick won best first year player and collected 11 Brownlow votes. Kosi was injured most of that year. In fact, the thing which distinguished both of them was how quickly they became stars. Lenny took a bit longer, but with Robert Harvey and Nathan Burke in the team, that was understandable. Lenny was never blessed with speed, so he had to develop the tank to become a star.

Both Lenny and Nick will be able to talk to Jack Billings about the light at the end of the tunnel, but we will need at least two or three high picks in the next few years. Back in the early 2000s, the priority pick shortened the timeline. Now, that tunnel is just a little bit longer - like five years at least. In the meantime, he can look forward to earning some serious money.

[Beno88]

Hayes, Riewoldt, Dal Santo, Kosi, Ball, Milne, Montagna, etc started out in a rubbish team. They turned out ok.

So did a few players called Lockett, Harvey, Loewe and Winmar.

[Cairnsman]

He looks to have lost self belief

What a load of codswallop!!

Did Hayes, Roo and Kosi lose their self belief when we were smashed in thier first few seasons

I am sure Billings understands exactly where the team is at and I have no doubt he also understands that if continues to work hard and learn from these losses then things will turn around

If he has lost self belief this early in his career he may as well hang his boots up

Bang on the money I reckon. I couldn't agree more that he understands exactly where things are at based on the fact that I do so why wouldn't someone that was drafted at no. 3 and is being selected to play AFL. THEY ARE NOT STUPID!

I reckon although he is playing in a team that is getting some beltings I reckon every weekend he would be waking up on match day and pinching himself that he is playing in a team alongside players like Roo and is playing against some of the greatest players in the country.

Yes it will probably wear thin if we are still getting flogged in 2016 but by then he will be expected to be frustrated and take a bit more of an emotional hit. Agree with P66 also that hopefully in that time he doesn't learn any bad habits.

[Bluthy]

Richo is on record saying that its important to get AFL games into players when they are young. I think that's based on the Port model where they copped some big hidings but just kept playing them until they hit that 50 game mark and started to be consistent.

[Bunk_Moreland]

Richo is on record saying that its important to get AFL games into players when they are young. I think that's based on the Port model where they copped some big hidings but just kept playing them until they hit that 50 game mark and started to be consistent.

Think there needs to be a balance drawn between BigMarts thoughts and the quote above.

While getting AFL games into a young player is vital, it cant be to his physical detriment. Billings is not built like Dunstan who will be a tank.

Might be time for a rest

[Moods]

Some predictable replies as I expected. Having said that not saying those replies are wrong. I really hope that I'm wrong. I'm trying to think back to the early 2000's and can't recall us ever being this bad. My point is that for periods of games I would expect us to be competitive, and then at some stage get blown away - much like the Port Adelaide game.

What I saw on Sunday was completely disheartening. Save for the first 20 seconds, the cats literally ran around doing what they like. The fact that we scored one further goal in perfect conditions till the 4th quarter was indication of their dominance. They even started experimenting with players on the ground!

My concern stems from the fact that Jack missed a straightforward shot at goal in the 1st quarter. I've seen his kicking deteriorate in the last few weeks which suggests to me his confidence is shot. I actually hope that P66 is correct and that he does get dropped. I guess that was my concern. That some of these kids have lost all confidence but we're playing them anyway cos we have no-one else. They need to be rotated and if they are then there might be some hope that they will improve to the level that we need them at. I shudder at the prospect of Lenny and Roo retiring soon.

[Bluthy]

Richo is on record saying that its important to get AFL games into players when they are young. I think that's based on the Port model where they copped some big hidings but just kept playing them until they hit that 50 game mark and started to be consistent.

Think there needs to be a balance drawn between BigMarts thoughts and the quote above.

While getting AFL games into a young player is vital, it cant be to his physical detriment. Billings is not built like Dunstan who will be a tank.

Might be time for a rest

I thought they would rest these young players too but its meant to be a production line model. By end of next year if Billings and Dunstan Acres, Eli play virtually every game they should have enough games under their belt to be more consistent which lets you move some of the older/fringe players on while you get the next batch of completely green draftees in. If you don't play them you slow the system down.

[evertonfc]

He'll actually benefit from it, for the hard work and grind is what made Riewoldt and Hayes so proud of being associated with the club - fighting through the tough times.

[Bluthy]

\I've seen his kicking deteriorate in the last few weeks which suggests to me his confidence is shot.

Or his legs now feel rubbery half way through the season and he's carrying some niggles from being smashed around by big bodies and he's breathing hard with the pace of AFL and he gets shut down much quicker and feels the perceived pressure of players baring down on him. This is the big show with the big boys and he's gotta get used to the pace and intensity where there is very little space and time.

[bigcarl]

Can't see how getting hammered by 50+ points every week benefits anyone. It leads to a defeatist mentality which is hard to turn around.

We need to be as competitive as we can be during the rebuild, which means pick our best team, even if it includes Clint Jones or Beau Maister.

[Moods]

\I've seen his kicking deteriorate in the last few weeks which suggests to me his confidence is shot.

Or his legs now feel rubbery half way through the season and he's carrying some niggles from being smashed around by big bodies and he's breathing hard with the pace of AFL and he gets shut down much quicker and feels the perceived pressure of players baring down on him. This is the big show with the big boys and he's gotta get used to the pace and intensity where there is very little space and time.

Except the missed shot on goal was a set shot 30m in front of goal within the first 5 minutes of the game. Not sure his legs would be rubbery at that stage of the game or that he would be feeling perceived pressure from anyone. My feeling is that confidence isn't great. The last few weeks his kicking for goal from set shots and on the run has gone south. He's a finisher with beautiful skills. Much like a Steele Sidebottom.

[thequarry]

Can't see how getting hammered by 50+ points every week benefits anyone. It leads to a defeatist mentality which is hard to turn around.

We need to be as competitive as we can be during the rebuild, which means pick our best team, even if it includes Clint Jones or Beau Maister.

It works for some and it works for others. There's obviously endless variables about how to do it and which players are best to play in a team and leave out regardless if you're going the tank/development line, somewhere in between to be competitive or just playing as many senior guys as possible to get the wins. It's about finding a balance - would those wins mean more than a kid playing in CJ's or Maister's spot? Difficult because we're measuring something intangible here - it's about the perceived psychological benefits, rather than whether it will cost us a finals spot (and obviously we're not privy to the psychological ins and outs of the players and mechanics of playing in these teams and so on).

The tank and playing kids didn't work for Melbourne, as for so long they had the wrong personnel in the coaches' box and across development and recruitment roles. Port bottomed out but have come roaring back with probably less high picks than Melbourne but assembling what appears to be a pretty good off-field set up over the past couple of years, and they were able to weather absolute hammerings in those down times (including back-to-back losses of 138 and 165 in late 2011). The Gold Coast and GWS will be examples of that to a point also, but they've also been gifted everything the AFL could throw at them.

If we're good enough as a club to recruit and develop the right people, then the kids will be able to carry themselves enough that they're better for these experiences.

As for Jack, he's had problems kicking for goal literally from his first kick. Right now, a whole nine games into his career, I'm more concerned about that in his game more than anything else.

[CURLY]

When he get's to his ideal size he will have these thrashings in the back of his mind as motivation.

[bergholt]

Just wondering if we had have thrown the baby out with the bath water. We need more senior players playing. Some of these kids simply aren't ready, and I'm not sure just gifting them games every week is helping them at all long or short term.

Shane Savage played his first 56 games in a team that was going pretty well. 41 wins in 56 games. As far as I can tell, that taught him to run ahead of the ball, and that he didn't have to work because someone else would do the hard stuff.

Society these days likes to mollycoddle kids and pretend that the world is all nice and fluffy. I'm not sure that gets particularly good results. Billings and co need to understand what it takes to succeed in the AFL and that will make them stronger players for it. And stronger people too.

[Cairnsman]

Some predictable replies as I expected. Having said that not saying those replies are wrong. I really hope that I'm wrong. I'm trying to think back to the early 2000's and can't recall us ever being this bad. My point is that for periods of games I would expect us to be competitive, and then at some stage get blown away - much like the Port Adelaide game.

What I saw on Sunday was completely disheartening. Save for the first 20 seconds, the cats literally ran around doing what they like. The fact that we scored one further goal in perfect conditions till the 4th quarter was indication of their dominance. They even started experimenting with players on the ground!

My concern stems from the fact that Jack missed a straightforward shot at goal in the 1st quarter. I've seen his kicking deteriorate in the last few weeks which suggests to me his confidence is shot. I actually hope that P66 is correct and that he does get dropped. I guess that was my concern. That some of these kids have lost all confidence but we're playing them anyway cos we have no-one else. They need to be rotated and if they are then there might be some hope that they will improve to the level that we need them at. I shudder at the prospect of Lenny and Roo retiring soon.

Gotta be cautious that the people in charge don't jump at shadows like us supporters. Not having a crack Moods but your claims seem a bit subjective based on a missed shot on the weekend and a claim his kicking has deteriorated over games before the weekend...has someone got some stats on his kicking efficiency since his debut just to put it into perspective? Not sure we have enough raw data to be able to pigeon hole Billings right at the moment. He also kicked a beauty later in the game on the run so why are we focusing on the one he missed. He's played bugger all games and was in front of a fairly intimidating home crowd when taking that set shot. As I say Moods not having a crack but I think in times like these the hardest thing to do is hold your nerve and just ride it out and not be too reactive, if it can helped that is.

[FQF]

Just wondering if we had have thrown the baby out with the bath water. We need more senior players playing. Some of these kids simply aren't ready, and I'm not sure just gifting them games every week is helping them at all long or short term.

Shane Savage played his first 56 games in a team that was going pretty well. 41 wins in 56 games. As far as I can tell, that taught him to run ahead of the ball, and that he didn't have to work because someone else would do the hard stuff.

Society these days likes to mollycoddle kids and pretend that the world is all nice and fluffy. I'm not sure that gets particularly good results. Billings and co need to understand what it takes to succeed in the AFL and that will make them stronger players for it. And stronger people too.

I think you're onto something there about Savage. It was glaringly obvious from round 1 that he simply did not know how to put the hard yards in and expected to be fed the ball on a silver platter. I don't think that's a blight on him, and it's also something that can't be fixed with one stern dressing down from the coach, or being dropped to the ressies for a week and then brought back up. Bad habits become deeply entrenched and extremely hard to break.

Savage has been out of the team for some time now, and I imagine the coaching staff have had to resist the urge to pick him despite our horrendous injury list. If this weekend is anywhere to go by, judging of the reports and his stats, Savage might be coming around. I wouldn't give up hope on him yet.