The Coach or the List?

[spert]

Five years is long enough in any field to achieve some form of success- if not then basically, you are doing it wrong. The coach has been found wanting, as have some of the playing list.

Much of our problem is above the shoulders, and I firmly believe that the list can play better team football than it is playing now, and some players individually can do a lot better, but seem to be playing with little incentive.

The talent is there to a degree, so really that's where coaching needs to take responsibility for the current trend of under-achieving both this season and the latter part of last season.

[rodgerfox]

Five years is long enough in any field to achieve some form of success- if not then basically, you are doing it wrong. The coach has been found wanting, as have some of the playing list.

Much of our problem is above the shoulders, and I firmly believe that the list can play better team football than it is playing now, and some players individually can do a lot better, but seem to be playing with little incentive.

The talent is there to a degree, so really that's where coaching needs to take responsibility for the current trend of under-achieving both this season and the latter part of last season.

Interestingly, the OP was written about a year ago.

So even back then, people had identified problems. I found this OP relevant because Richardson and others like to point back to last year as evidence that we're a good team that's just going through a bad patch - however as per this thread, not everyone felt we were traveling all that well last year either!

If last year is the benchmark we're striving for, we're screwed.

[Saint wagga]

My response to the original post, Coach or List...Both (so recruiting also cops a whack) but way more blame on the current predicament on the coach (all of them, Cox, Richo. Assistants) butvthe buck stops with Richo...

Some points...
2014 Draft - our bottom out draft. Current 2018 Output, almost zero! That is so damning! Picks 1, 19 and 21/22...giving us absolutely nothing like the output needed, and this filters down to the whole list putting more pressure to expect too much from rookie picks, smokies etc...

So many players have gone backwards in their development - this is the most glaring indictment on our coaching dept.

Confusing/baffling selections indicate to me a completely divided/rooted match committee...this adds to poor development and if we don’t fix it and get it right done, not all of course, but certainly some young promising careers will be ruined.

The curse of the leadership group - note to players, if you get nominated, turn it down!! Seriously, that whole young crop of leaders form has suffered since being added to the leadership group...Newnes, Bruce, Weller...it’s like a poisoned chalice at the moment!

As I mentioned in another post; this current patch of terrible conversion/yips has the potential to ruin careers. That would be a tragedy. Billings, play him off half back exclusively for a while. Gresh more midfield time...he’s a midfielder ffs, members, just persevere, he’s a high forward.

Strewth theres more, but I’ll leave it at that for now. We need a new head coach, a proven winner, the best gun for sale...applicants with unproven credentials need not apply!

[samoht]

We don't have enough spread and run, and this has been our problem for years; and yet our recruiters keep recruiting inside midfielders (plus a heap of half back flankers and ruckmen).
Most of the players we've recruited have average to poor skills - again, who do we blame - the coach or the recruiters?

The coach or the list = the coach or the recruiters (ultimately)? ... and I firmly believe it's the recruiters. They are not recruiting strategically or with an overall plan (with team balance in mind).

[bigcarl]

We don't have enough spread and run, and this has been our problem for years; and yet our recruiters keep recruiting inside midfielders (plus a heap of half back flankers and ruckmen).
Most of the players we've recruited have average to poor skills - again, who do we blame - the coach or the recruiters?

The coach or the list = the coach or the recruiters (ultimately)? ... and I firmly believe it's the recruiters. They are not recruiting strategically or with an overall plan (with team balance in mind).

I thought Gresham showed a big at the centre clearances. He has great vision and seems to be able to open up play ahead of him. Sinclair also adds a bit of outside run and skill.

But you are right, we’ve too many inside grunt players who cannot run and spread. But the big difference tonight was they have blokes who are dangerous around goal and can consistently hit the scoreboard. Like De Goey.

A player like that can transform a team as he seems to have done with Collingwood this season.

Who was the last player to kick six straight for us?

[lefty]

Coach is done. Time for someone fresh to come in. Forward line structure is completely s*** house. The players can't all be s***. You gain confidence through the coach and the game plan. I keep hearing the bs about A Graders. We should have them. Billings is an A Grader, but at this point in time, he's a D.

Gresham was not good tonight, first quarter that kick split the two saints players up forward. Geary tried to do a 30m handpass instead of a left foot kick from the pocket. Armo looks overweight. Billings has lost all confidence. Membrey, what's the point of having him as a forward when he can't kick, that last shot was a pass kick. Rice well beaten, too slow. Clarke looks like he needs a spell, too slow. Marshall doesn't do enough.

Lonie cops a lot of s***, but at least he bloody chased. He and Newnes were basically our forward line. They both had decent games.

Hats off to our midfield, thought they won most clearances.

Coach either needs to find new life, confidence in his players, or it's going to be very tough at the end of the year.

[congorozides]

I am starting to believe Clarkson might be available.

He took one last risk on JOM in the hope he could sneak one more flag from Roughie + Burgoyne this season. But that aint going to happen and JOM is not the superstar he might have hoped for.

He now knows the Hawks are a long way off their next flag. Maybe a decade.

Time for him to move on on mutual and good terms with the Hawks while the relationship remains positive.

[saintadamski]

I firmly believe that even Clarko couldn't get a win out of this list.
Our recruiting has been so incredibly poor over the last 8-10 years, that we are now reaping what we have sewed.
As for Richo - he continues to play the same duds week in week out....which brings me to my next point...
It is difficult for me to write about Billings, given that the very thought of this dud makes my hands shudder - makes it difficult to type.
One of the most frustrating things for me is that the Saints coaching and recruiting staff seem to live in some ridiculous bubble, where rational thought, and the bleeding obvious cannot penetrate.
Billings is: SLOW, WEAK, DUMB, COWARDLY. He has ABSOLUTELY NO fierceness or aggression at the ball or player. The fact that he was taken by pick 3 by the Saints ahead of Bontempelli shows us the ineptitude, and incompetence of our recruiting staff.
The fact that he is played week in , week out..insipid performance after insipid performance, disappoints me as to the fruitless trust and faith by our coach....which inevitably will be his undoing and the end of his career.
Richo still has time to change. He still has time to stop playing Billings, Newnes, Savage, Marshall etc - the duds. Does ANYONE see any of these guys as players to take us to a premiership....the very thought is absurd!!!
Please Richo....change what you're doing, and save your career at least.

[rodgerfox]

Don't get me wrong, I like Newnes. He tries hard, is pretty tough and is durable.

He's just very overrated by Saints fans.

His skills aren't great, and his decision making is awful. He's a long kick with a nice action - which sucks people in to thinking he's a great kick. He's not.

Never polled a Brownlow vote either in 100 games FWIW. That stat is usually reserved for taggers and/or stopping defenders - not guys that go through the midfield.


I think we all thought he'd be a gun early in his career - and some seem to have clung onto that thought. Unfortunately the results say different.

He's a reasonable defender - but a terrible on-baller.

Fair call.

[SaintPav]

Come on Fox. Having to bump one of your posts is bad enough but 3?!

Please..

[maverick]

100% coach and coaching group
Clarko would have this list where the Hawks are now.
Have a look at their team and tell me how much talent they really have
Clarko is the best coach I have seen

[samoht]

10% of where we're at is attributable to the coach and 90% to our list and hence to our recruiters.

Our recruiters have really failed us ... and they're the ones who should be copping the most of the blame.

Here's an example -- we used pick 7 to get Hunter Clark, but Hawthorn found the equal of Hunter Clark (if not better) with pick 45 - James Worpel.
They are virtually the same age and height.

We need to find these gems. But in order to do that, we need to recruit the best recruiters .... pardon the pun.
Hawthorn recruited a pick 7 equivalent player with pick 45 - no wonder they're a happy team at Hawthorn - they don't bottom out at Hawthorn.


James Worpel Name Hunter Clark
Hawthorn Hawks Team St Kilda Saints
Midfield Position Defender, Midfield
7 Career Games 15
Geelong Falcons Origin Dandenong Stingrays
January 24, 1999 Date of Birth March 26, 1999
19yr 6mth Age 19yr 4mth
185cm Height 186cm
86kg Weight 79kg
2017 National Draft Last Drafted In 2017 National Draft
Round 3, Pick #45 Last Draft Position Round 1, Pick #7
Hawthorn Hawks Last Drafted By St Kilda Saints
2018 Stats for Season 2018
7 Games 15
7.9 Kicks Per Game 8.1
8.9 Handballs Per Game 7.3
16.7 Disposals Per Game 15.4
1.9 Marks Per Game 2.9
0.3 Goals Per Game 0.2
0.6 Behinds Per Game 0.3
4.1 Tackles Per Game 2.8
0 Hitouts Per Game 0
3.3 Inside 50s Per Game 1.7
0.7 Goal Assists Per Game 0.3
0.9 Frees For Per Game 0.3
1.0 Frees Against Per Game 0.8
6.9 Contested Possessions Per Game 3.9
9.7 Uncontested Possessions Per Game 11.9
12.4 Effective Disposals Per Game 11.2
74.3% Disposal Efficiency % Per Game 72.7%
2.1 Clangers Per Game 2.2
0.1 Contested Marks Per Game 0.1
0.3 Marks Inside 50 Per Game 0
2.1 Clearances Per Game 0.7
0.3 Rebound 50s Per Game 1.6
0.4 One Percenters Per Game 1.5
0.3 Bounces Per Game 0.1
72.1 Time On Ground % Per Game 71.1
0.9 Centre Clearances Per Game 0.3
1.3 Stoppage Clearances Per Game 0.4
5.4 Score Involvements Per Game 3.5
171.1 Metres Gained Per Game 196.1
2.4 Turnovers Per Game 3.3
1.9 Intercepts Per Game 2.7
1.0 Tackles Inside 50 Per Game 0.4
$374,000 AFL Fantasy Price $398,000
63.6 AFL Fantasy Score Per Game 58.1
$318,900 Supercoach Price $271,800
69.7 Supercoach Score Per Game 54.1

[vacuous space]

Here's an example -- we used pick 7 to get Hunter Clark, but Hawthorn found the equal of Hunter Clark (if not better) with pick 45 - James Worpel.

I don't see this as an example of our recruiters failing us. Worpel has had more opportunity to play inside as a third round pick in a top-4 team than Clark has had as a top-10 pick playing in a bottom-4 team. Clark averaged 26+ disposals for the Stingrays playing as an inside mid, as well as some absurd number of clearances and i50s. He's better on his non-preferred than Worpel is on his right.

Clark got one game against Freo playing in the centre, looked good and then Richo never played him there again. I assume that, like all the other first round picks Richo won't use in the centre, he's trying to get that explosiveness or whatever excuse Richo uses to not play these guys while playing a very ordinary midfield group that gets beaten regularly.

[takeaway]

Here's an example -- we used pick 7 to get Hunter Clark, but Hawthorn found the equal of Hunter Clark (if not better) with pick 45 - James Worpel.

I don't see this as an example of our recruiters failing us. Worpel has had more opportunity to play inside as a third round pick in a top-4 team than Clark has had as a top-10 pick playing in a bottom-4 team. Clark averaged 26+ disposals for the Stingrays playing as an inside mid, as well as some absurd number of clearances and i50s. He's better on his non-preferred than Worpel is on his right.

Clark got one game against Freo playing in the centre, looked good and then Richo never played him there again. I assume that, like all the other first round picks Richo won't use in the centre, he's trying to get that explosiveness or whatever excuse Richo uses to not play these guys while playing a very ordinary midfield group that gets beaten regularly.

You cannot compare 2 players after one year at each club, playing different positions, one team with an established game plan(s) versus the other team chopping and changing game plans. Choosing between Worpel and Clark to play the next 10 years at the club, I know who I would be going for - Clark.

Our dearth of players left from the 2006-10 drafts, ie Jack Steven only, is our main recruiting problem. Most of the better teams have quite a few from that era still playing and leading the youngsters. I think our recruiting 2011 to now has been reasonable compared to most clubs, except 2012 which was a blowout.

[samoht]

At this stage it's line ball - i.e., Worpel = Clark - Worpel might actually be slightly ahead, but Clark was always going to be a higher pick in the draft, was the obvious choice and may indeed end up the better player (but there's no guarantee).

I'm not comparing the 2 players as much as our recruiters vs recruiters at the better teams.
I just used it as an example of what the Hawks managed to recruit with their pick 45 - that's all. It's no coincidence that the better teams - the ones with sustained success - also have the better recruiters. This should come as no surprise.

[BarryGrogan]

Been digging around to see how long people have been bagging the 'bomb it in' thing, and found this thread!

Reading this, not a single thing has changed in 2 years from the coaches box!

According to the OP, we averaged 98 Points For when we beat GWS over 2 years ago - then once the 'bomb it in' yhing was worked out by the opposition - we averaged 60 odd!! Sound familiar!!!

[SAINT-LEE]

I already shudder at what it would look like if or when he is sacked.

Me too! Imagine if we only won 33% or less of our games after he was fired....Im screaming in the streets with terror...art thou a troll or Richo texting from the gazebo.

[Trixilver]

Other teams bomb it long plenty of the time, the difference is most of them have forwards who can either read it better or mark it. All we really have is Membrey - Bruce can never get enough separation as a forward, and when he does get some he'll often fumble it.

[BarryGrogan]

Other teams bomb it long plenty of the time, the difference is most of them have forwards who can either read it better or mark it. All we really have is Membrey - Bruce can never get enough separation as a forward, and when he does get some he'll often fumble it.

Really?

We're 9th for Marks Inside 50 (only 1 less per week than Geelong) - but we're 15th for Goals.

Teams do bomb it in - but as a Plan B, and nowhere near as predictably as us.

[ace]

I already shudder at what it would look like if or when he is sacked.

It would look like it has always been when presented with the wooden spoon.
When you have the weakest list in the competition and don't have coach that can drill some system and structures into the team, spoons are a just reward.
Definitely the List, thanks to Bevo and Trout.

[BarryGrogan]

I already shudder at what it would look like if or when he is sacked.

It would look like it has always been when presented with the wooden spoon.
When you have the weakest list in the competition and don't have coach that can drill some system and structures into the team, spoons are a just reward.
Definitely the List, thanks to Bevo and Trout.

I actually like our list.

[Impatient Sainter]

Our issue is every year we say we are going to draft best available which is rubbish, when the draft comes around they do the complete opposite. Our recruiters find reasons to pick kids for positional requirments rather than best available. McCartin was chosen when we needed a FF, he fails hence we pick an injured Max King this year. Max in a super draft of midfielders will either be a huge sucess or the biggest bust of a draft choice ever! Either way after the risk taken with Paddy's diabetes how would we geniunely take further risk on a kid who had the year before completely destroyed his knee. It seems their decision making was tainted by having Max do his rehab at the club. Although I have heard that Libratore wanted Rosee and Lethlean pulled rank and we called out Max's name.

The year before we picked Clark & Coffield because we needed midfielders, hoping they would become such. Its very debatable that either of them were best available? On the Worpel v Clark discussion Worpel is streets ahead of Clark and Coffield and TBH I dont see either them closing the gap in the near future.

We need to face the fact that in the last decade our recruiters have had as much sucess drafting quality midfielders, as we have of winning Tattslotto.

[BarryGrogan]

The year before we picked Clark & Coffield because we needed midfielders, hoping they would become such. Its very debatable that either of them were best available? On the Worpel v Clark discussion Worpel is streets ahead of Clark and Coffield and TBH I dont see either them closing the gap in the near future.

I don't agree any of what you posted.

Especially the above.

Worpel is an incredibly mediocre player. He's physically way, way ahead of Clark - but in terms of football ability he isn't even in the same ballpark.

[Toy Saint]

To be fair, most of the experts had Hunter Clark & Coffield in the top 10 and Worpel was always going to be a 3rd or 4th round pick.

[BarryGrogan]

To be fair, most of the experts had Hunter Clark & Coffield in the top 10 and Worpel was always going to be a 3rd or 4th round pick.

If Clark had Worpel's rig, he's be an AA already.

Very, very talented kid. Just needs his body to catch up.