Does Ross Lyon have to take some of the blame?

[GSG]

I know that I’ll be getting absolutely crucified for what I’m about to write, but Ross Lyon has to take some of the blame. Saints Footy is simply not a sustainable style of football over 22 weeks. They’re game plan is based on strangling the opposition by hard tackling and blocking, particularly in the opposition’s forward line - then when they get the ball, run the length of the field and hope they can find a target. This is a very exhausting way of playing and will never win a Grand Final. They ran out of legs last year, couldn’t quite make it last week and were spectacularly flat yesterday, in fact the game was over after the first quarter.
Collingwood, Carlton, Essendon, Richmond, Melbourne, etc. all are fast running teams. They’ll be the dominant ones over the next few years.
If RL and the Saints don’t change, they’ll be back to the bad old days where everybody loves them for being the poor old Saints.

[saintsRrising]

tish.....

1/
IMO RL built the Saints to defeat the best team in the competition which was the Cats for the logical reason that to win the GF you had to beat the best. Our record against the Cats this last two years was excellent.

Unfortunately however the Pies shot to prominence this year. We still had the wood over the Cats, but did not match up as well against the Pies...but almost won last week none the less.


2/

The argumet that our gameplan is not sustainable over a full season has the flaw that the Pies who won play a similar hardworking gameplan. Sure they have fast breaks mixed in...but that is hard running to.

Difference was that the Pies pressed more in their forward half. Lots of stamina needed for their gameplan.

[GSG]

tish.....


The argumet that our gameplan is not sustainable over a full season has the flaw that the Pies who won play a similar hardworking gameplan.

True, but the Pies can play a fast-flowing game, something the Saints rarely do with a good opposition. IMO that's why they were exposed yesterday. They never had a chance.

As to RL - I think he's one of the best coaches we had recently. I just feel we reached the end of this particular style of game.

[bigred]

Of course he does.

He has to.

So do the players.

Everyone does.

You cannot lose two Grand Finals....or three, in two years without having to make some really tough decisions.

[PJ]

You cannot lose two Grand Finals....or three, in two years without having to make some really tough decisions.

We were exposed up forward big time - time to change the kosi/riewoldt set up it's too predictable and cumbersome. We cannot go into 2011 with this set up or we are history.

[borderbarry]

Our list needs drastic changes. And our faster players who are not getting a game should be played before the plodders.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

As everyone knows, the buck stops with him. Period. He was out-coached yesterday and out-planned (in the lead up), something shocking. Last week he did very well, this week the exact opposite.

[saintkid]

As everyone knows, the buck stops with him. Period. He was out-coached yesterday and out-planned (in the lead up), something shocking. Last week he did very well, this week the exact opposite.

That's right and it pained us to see Max plotting against us in the GF. The guy played his heart out in the backline for us and Ross had his papers stamped as no longer being a better option than Zac. You only have to look at the way the Filth look after their champions. No wonder he accepted a job by them to ultimately help plot our downfall by assisting their defence. He would have told them heaps along with Ball who was thought to be not suited to "our game plan". Truth is Dal, Monty and others rarely help Lenny get the hard ball out and Bally was sorely missed this year. He played a great GF yesterday for the Filth and Lyon's decisions definitely have a bit to answer for with the 2009 GF loss and yesterdays.

[meher baba]

Lyon deserves some criticism for the loss, but not for the development of "Saints Footy" which took us to the brink of a flag in two successive years. I believe this style of footy in its purest form has now done its dash (although its influence will live on, including in the way the Pies are playing ATM). But it was never a mistake for Lyon to develop it: it gave us a competitive edge in most of our matches over a 60+ game period from mid-2008.

IMO Lyon and the rest of the club's brains trust have had a poor week. We seemed to be complacent. The persistence with Eddy and Gram were matters of concern before the game, and turned out poorly. We came out and allowed the Pies immediately to push us onto the ropes just as we had done the week before. This time the Pies were able to conquer their nerves and put us away. That was always going to be likely to happen, and I can't understand why we didn't try some different stuff, eg: Armo to come in and play on Ball, Gwilt playing further forward (to deliver the ball more dangerously into our 50), no Gram and Peake playing further up the ground, no McEvoy and instead Stanley coming in to provide extra run up forward (with Kosi playing solely in the ruck: ok for one game, I reckon). Geary for Eddy?

Not all great ideas. But we needed to mix it up and we didn't. Were we complacent, inflexible or simply devoid of a plan B? Presumably some combination of the three, but the buck surely stops with Ross.

[saintsRrising]

I know Eddy is this weeks scapegoat...but breaking your arm in the first quarter is likely to not be helpful to playing your best game.

[Legendary]

Of course he takes some blame, probably more than others (that is the nature of being a senior coach).

He is still an excellent coach (you don't make consecutive GF's if you don't understand how to develop and lead a team).

However he needs to make some hard calls - on players, on his staff, on the gameplan, on list management.

How he responds will determine the success of this club over the next 3-5 years.

What should he do? That's a matter of much opinion and debate.


I trust that he is experienced enough to know that you cannot "sit still" in AFL, and that he will work on developing a modified gameplan with some different personnel that gives us another chance at a flag - whether that's next year or in 3 years time.

'Saints Footy' meant that we lost 8 games in two years and missed winning two flags by a total of 13 points.

[saintkid]

I like Eddy's endeavour but he plays without any grace or style and 'bash and crash' footy can't be his only strength to keep his career going. He spent too much energy yesterday being reactive to Maxwell instead of being a creative forward. As a result, he copped his 3rd injury since returning to the side 2 months ago.

[meher baba]

I know Eddy is this weeks scapegoat...but breaking your arm in the first quarter is likely to not be helpful to playing your best game.

Well, yes. But, as I opined on another thread, Eddy's contribution over 5 preceeding quarters had been so minimal that neither fans nor commentators noticed he was injured. Says something, doesn't it?

Great guy, terrific endeavour, but not a finals-quality player I'm afraid.

[saintsRrising]

I know Eddy is this weeks scapegoat...but breaking your arm in the first quarter is likely to not be helpful to playing your best game.

Well, yes. But, as I opined on another thread, Eddy's contribution over 5 preceeding quarters had been so minimal that neither fans nor commentators noticed he was injured. Says something, doesn't it?

Great guy, terrific endeavour, but not a finals-quality player I'm afraid.

As I have written in other threads I think that Eddy, and Mini in particular will be under huge pressure to keep their spots as their offensive side is not good enough for the way football has moved.

With Mini... his lack of pace has found him out...as he simply cannot get free on the burst as you need your forwards to do from time to time. He also cannot go with qick back bursting out of defence.

The Pies can be exposed out the back...but not with players like Mini...or Eddy. Lovett was made for it!!!!!!!!!!!

[Moccha]

I like Eddy's endeavour but he plays without any grace or style and 'bash and crash' footy can't be his only strength to keep his career going. He spent too much energy yesterday being reactive to Maxwell instead of being a creative forward. As a result, he copped his 3rd injury since returning to the side 2 months ago.

100% correct!

If he was good enough to get the ball and be creative Maxwell would have to be accountable. It's a negative game plan and I think the Saints need to start being more positive about the game. Introduce some speed and start taking it on cos that's where the games heading.

[dcstkfc]

Our list needs drastic changes. And our faster players who are not getting a game should be played before the plodders.

It doesn't need drastic changes yet. I agree with your plodders theory though. Steven must start ahead of Mini or Eddy, Stanley must play, perhaps at Kosi's expense (although Kosi should play ruck when Gardi retires), Miles ahead of Dempster, with Al Smith and Simpkin putting pressure on Blake, Bakes, Ray, Peake and even Gram.

[QuestionOfAccuracy]

Of course Ross will take some of the responsibility for the loss, because he's responsible for preparing the players.

But at the end of the day, coaches are there to get the best out of their playing group and I don't think anyone can argue that he hasn't got the best out of the playing group. The whole footy world knows that our 22 is significantly less talented than talented than both the Pies', Cats and possibly Bulldogs, yet he still got us within a kick of a flag.

At the end of 08' there was a significant review of our game style, and Ross has already alluded to the need to do so again, so they will.

[Legendary]

Another positive is that we will have an influx of new assistant coaches over the next few weeks.

No doubt Ross is responsible for the philosophy and thinking behind the gameplan, but there would certainly be input from the assistant coaches.

Bringing Berbakov and Harvey in from two other top 8 clubs will give a new perspective, and Banger in particularl will help keep the morale and respect of the playing group firmly with the coaching staff.

In addition, having someone else in Drain's position will allow a new perspective on the drafting/list management strategy which will be important ... different contacts and skills.

[SaintWodonga]

Ross has done a great job, let's not forget that.

But to continually give games to players who do not apply enough score board pressure is not right.

Clearly Eddy & Mini gave zero in the draw.

We need to apply more scoreboard pressure. I rather mini get goals than tackles.

His 8 goals has a half forward for the year suggests he is a Ross fav. 8 goals in a year is not good enough return.

Jack Steven kicked more goals in much less games (he would not have been the difference yesterday, or any worse)

We must play younger players. Players who can score goals. If we simply go down the defence only road, we won't improve much.

Granted that great teams are built from defence, however we must adopt a blend of defence and attack ALA Collingwood.

Must find another option for Jones, his ball skills are not up to standard.

[Buckets]

As everyone knows, the buck stops with him. Period. He was out-coached yesterday and out-planned (in the lead up), something shocking. Last week he did very well, this week the exact opposite.

This.

It pains me to say it but Malthouse got his tactics right and made sure he had plan A, B, C and D. Last week Lyon changed things up when they werent working and got the Pies offside. This time they knew what was coming unfortunately.

[SirDog]

A coach is only as great as his players. For those who criticise RL please tell me how well the players supported him or his plan yesterday? Everyone was slapping RL on the back until this last match and now he becomes a target? Don't you think that RL will re-assess his own efforts anyway?

TBH no one knows what RL instructed his players or how well the players executed his instruction but lets be clear here - a majority of the St.Kilda players were terrible, the passing to opposition, centre clearances etc were high and we all know that is not what RL would have instructed his players.

And in relation to 2009 GF, I bet there were no complaints from supporters when the saints were up for 90% of the game. However, when Schneider fails to kick goals and possibly seal the match, and players dwindle in the final 10 minutes of the match that is beyond a coach's ability.

[Moccha]

Clearly Eddy & Mini gave zero in the draw.

We need to apply more scoreboard pressure. I rather mini get goals than tackles.

His 8 goals has a half forward for the year suggests he is a Ross fav. 8 goals in a year is not good enough return.

A disgraceful output from a half forward of just 8 goals in a season or less than 1 goal every 3 matches!!!!