Where to next.....serious thinking time

[BigMart]

We cant win with the same troops...that much is obvious

We cant win with the same game plan....that too is obvious


Now what

I dont think we throw the baby out with the bathwater....but we do need to tinker with the personnel...and structure, so it suits the new personnel...

What really confused me is why this has come six months late....this sort of progressive thinking should occur every year.....ross did nothing to improve in 2010 and stayed at a similar level and collingwood cruised passed us....essendon, carlton and freo caught up a bit.....he could be forgiven for going to the same well then, because we were well out ahead and geelong, wb were getting no better....but in 2011 it was fraught with danger to hope we would stay at the top with no personnell or structure changes....

Thus the disappointing start to 2011. ----- and everyone mocked me when i labelled our pre-seaon a big disappointment.....and i was assured that as soon as the real stuff started we would be fine...i was too negative as usual....i actually though the concerns were obvious, and ross like the supporters was just hoping we would click....rather than ensuring it.


What i think

Full back: dawson....best tall fwd stopper 25yo, tom walsh back up

Back pocket: gwilt......solid defender 26yo, good user out of defense, simpkin back up

Small defender: not sure

CHB: sam fisher.......best defender, 28yo, blake back up

HBF: raph clarke or nick winmar

HBF: tom Lynch.....excellent at sandy across hb, need to play him, back up dempster

Wing: sam gilbert.....i reckon it would work, link and carry out of defense, back up nick winmar

Centre: goddard...best player in the guts, back up dal

Wing: gram...still best outside ball carrier, back up peake

CHF: riewoldt....best three players down the spine.....rotate at ff....back up johnson

HFF: dal santo....creative, dangerous...rotate on ball with armo/goddard, back up sam crocker or ledger or heyne
HFF: schnieder.....creative, dangerous...rotate on ball with montagna, back up heyne or ledger

FF: mCevoy....and kosi, rotating, back up archer

FP: milne....still a match winner atm, back up steven, gamble
FP: stanley or steven, depending on match ups...create a mismatch, back ups siposs, gamble, heyne

Lynch, gwilt, gilbert have the ability to go fwd as a mobile target

Ruck: kosi....set tHe scene and rest fwd, back up archer
RR: armitage....clearance man, back up smith
rov: montagna.....hard runner, first reciever, back up steven ledger

Int:
Ray.....run with or rotation
Smith....as above
Steven or stanley...one fwd
Cripps.....sub....come on an run


Emerg: winmar, geary, ledger

[SainterK]

Would of saved a whole lot of words if you'd simply said 'told you so'

[BigMart]

Side seems youger, faster and more attacking...But still with senior core.

Baker, gardiner, blake left out....milne hanging on

Defensive players....dempster, baker, cj, mini, eddy, blake all left out for more talented players...

Defense need to be smaller

Use the three ruckmen.....rotate the heavily to gain around the ground advantage....have two or three talls fwd and move the ball in quickly.

[Con Gorozidis]

i pretty much agree with all of that. good post.

my only reservations/differences - i think crocker is a while off and i think ledger is ready to go now.

i also think we could probably fast track winmar ahead of raph.

but all up. i like your thinking a lot. gilbo on a wing is a nice touch.

and that small defender is a real headache for us.

ive suggested a few times we could try and re-invent cj there. he cant do any worse than he already is. dempster sometimes does well as a small defender and eddy sometimes does. but none of them fill me with any confidence.

who is tha afl-wide role model for that position?

[St Igmata]

i pretty much agree with all of that. good post.

my only reservations/differences - i think crocker is a while off and i think ledger is ready to go now.

i also think we could probably fast track winmar ahead of raph.

but all up. i like your thinking a lot. gilbo on a wing is a nice touch.

and that small defender is a real headache for us.

ive suggested a few times we could try and re-invent cj there. he cant do any worse than he already is. dempster sometimes does well as a small defender and eddy sometimes does. but none of them fill me with any confidence.

who is tha afl-wide role model for that position?

Out of curiosity why "Winmar ahead of Raph"?

[Longwayfromhome]

Can't help but remember that last year Hawthorn were being subjected to the same sort of negative press that we are taking on at the moment. They too had a poor start to the year. Things obviously got better.
Round three people.
Things will get better.
Repeat after me.
Things will get better
Things will get better
Things will get better
Things will get better

[BigMart]

Too many opportunities for raph...as soon as winmar is ready, if raph hasent turned it around...gone...

Armo, lynch, cripps, mcevoy, smith, steven, stanley, winmar, ledger.....in the 25.......all our best under 23yo

Back pockets i like

Johncock, Adcock, johnson, enright, newmam...and others

[BigMart]

Hawthorn plummeted....bad example.

We are in deep trouble....its nothing to do with results as far as win/loss....its how aweful we are....we look like a bottom 4 team at best...

[Richter]

As usual, some good thoughts Marto. Which I pretty much agree with.

We cant win with the same troops...that much is obvious

We cant win with the same game plan....that too is obvious

Not everyone agrees with that though Marto... not even sure that RL can bring himself to agree though I, like you think it is patently obvious too!

Small defender: not sure

Geary for the small defender?

[MC Gusto]

like it

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

i pretty much agree with all of that. good post.

my only reservations/differences - i think crocker is a while off and i think ledger is ready to go now.

i also think we could probably fast track winmar ahead of raph.

but all up. i like your thinking a lot. gilbo on a wing is a nice touch.

and that small defender is a real headache for us.

+1

[plugger66]

So from the side that lost to the dons by 50 points we now have included Lynch, Cripps and Kosi. I am not saying it is good or bad but if they all played last week with the club having the same attitude we would have lost by, wait for it, 50 points. It isnt about who is or isnt playing at the moment. It is simply about their mental attitude so we can make 1 or 10 changes but nothing will change with the side until they get their heads right.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Out of curiosity why "Winmar ahead of Raph"?

I for one have been really disappointed with Raph so far this year.
I really thought he would improve our backline this season, but he certainly hasn't.
He started the year well, looking good in his first NAB Cup match, but I've hardly seen him do a single thing (except drop that sitter against Richmond last week, which cost us a goal, late in the game) since then.
He used to provide real run and drive out of defence and would read the play well and take good marks running across to cut off leads, but I'm just not seeing anywhere near as much of it this year.
And he really needs to be getting a lot of it, because his lollypop passes are not damaging enough to be only getting a few kicks a game.
He needs to lift fast.
Winmar may not be the answer yet, but Raph just ain't getting it done at the moment. I reckon I'd pick Dempster ahead of him this week and that's saying something.

[Teflon]

We cant win with the same troops...that much is obvious

We cant win with the same game plan....that too is obvious


Now what

I dont think we throw the baby out with the bathwater....but we do need to tinker with the personnel...and structure, so it suits the new personnel...

What really confused me is why this has come six months late....this sort of progressive thinking should occur every year.....ross did nothing to improve in 2010 and stayed at a similar level and collingwood cruised passed us....essendon, carlton and freo caught up a bit.....he could be forgiven for going to the same well then, because we were well out ahead and geelong, wb were getting no better....but in 2011 it was fraught with danger to hope we would stay at the top with no personnell or structure changes....

Thus the disappointing start to 2011. ----- and everyone mocked me when i labelled our pre-seaon a big disappointment.....and i was assured that as soon as the real stuff started we would be fine...i was too negative as usual....i actually though the concerns were obvious, and ross like the supporters was just hoping we would click....rather than ensuring it.


What i think

Full back: dawson....best tall fwd stopper 25yo, tom walsh back up

Back pocket: gwilt......solid defender 26yo, good user out of defense, simpkin back up

Small defender: not sure

CHB: sam fisher.......best defender, 28yo, blake back up

HBF: raph clarke or nick winmar

HBF: tom Lynch.....excellent at sandy across hb, need to play him, back up dempster

Wing: sam gilbert.....i reckon it would work, link and carry out of defense, back up nick winmar

Centre: goddard...best player in the guts, back up dal

Wing: gram...still best outside ball carrier, back up peake

CHF: riewoldt....best three players down the spine.....rotate at ff....back up johnson

HFF: dal santo....creative, dangerous...rotate on ball with armo/goddard, back up sam crocker or ledger or heyne
HFF: schnieder.....creative, dangerous...rotate on ball with montagna, back up heyne or ledger

FF: mCevoy....and kosi, rotating, back up archer

FP: milne....still a match winner atm, back up steven, gamble
FP: stanley or steven, depending on match ups...create a mismatch, back ups siposs, gamble, heyne

Lynch, gwilt, gilbert have the ability to go fwd as a mobile target

Ruck: kosi....set tHe scene and rest fwd, back up archer
RR: armitage....clearance man, back up smith
rov: montagna.....hard runner, first reciever, back up steven ledger

Int:
Ray.....run with or rotation
Smith....as above
Steven or stanley...one fwd
Cripps.....sub....come on an run


Emerg: winmar, geary, ledger

Good post.My thoughts.

Keep Gilbert coming out of defence - doesnt posess the disposal to enter fwd 50 damaging off a wing. Remove Raph Clarke (I actually think hes been ok but hes now back up)

Introduce Ledger or Cripps on to the other wing. IF Gram continues his woeful turn overs he toowill have to be looked at.

So Cripps/Ledger either wing or sub.

[stinger]

i was watching danny frawley sunday night,....seems he is a fan of young cuz...reckons he should be fast tracked into the side,....kinda agree with him....and i have only seen the kid play twice....

[plugger66]

i was watching danny frawley sunday night,....seems he is a fan of young cuz...reckons he should be fast tracked into the side,....kinda agree with him....and i have only seen the kid play twice....

Well I am guessing that is probably twice more than Danny.

[PJ]

ive suggested a few times we could try and re-invent cj there. he cant do any worse than he already is.

You can't be serious with CJ's disposal he'd be so under the pump it'd kill us.

[Statsman]

Wing: sam gilbert.....i reckon it would work, link and carry out of defense, back up nick winmar
Wing: gram...still best outside ball carrier, back up peake

That pairing gives us good run through the middle to break the lines, but I'm worried by their disposal on the run. It could be turnover city with Gilbert and Gram bombing it inside 50.

[Spinner]

That's the same bloody team...

Haha really is.

[PJ]

Where to next

Fix the stoppage leakage and we are back in the game. The ease with which they took it away from stoppages was a disgrace - this one is firmly in the lap of the players. There were gapping holes around the bounce and they just walked away with it.

[SaintDippa]

More to it than just attitude IMO. Gram, Ray, Peake, Clarke, Dempster lucky to hit a target 50% of the time. Too many players with poor foot skills.

In today's footy = turnover = 1:1 in our defense = trouble (sorry Trouble).

Also, in today's footy if its mark, stop, eyes up, stop then the next words are 'kick to a contest'. Don't think I've ever seen Dempster or the guy who marks in the back pocket after a kick out ever play on.

[sendmehomehappy]

Boracay then Dalat and Ha Long Bay via Ho Chi Minh

[Dr Spaceman]

Boracay then Dalat and Ha Long Bay via Ho Chi Minh

And some people say Seaford is a long trip

[sendmehomehappy]

Seriously...i hope the team is firing, or there is some hope for the future(and the not too distant future) as demonstrated by the young-uns, by the time I get back.

Concur with the suggestions as above...but I would let the big Irishman loose too...very little to lose there. Must see what he can do..it is time.

[Teflon]

Wing: sam gilbert.....i reckon it would work, link and carry out of defense, back up nick winmar
Wing: gram...still best outside ball carrier, back up peake

That pairing gives us good run through the middle to break the lines, but I'm worried by their disposal on the run. It could be turnover city with Gilbert and Gram bombing it inside 50.

My view also - skill level needs to improve especially going into fwd 50 where we need to ensure our entries to scores ratio increases.

Ultimately a Crocker would be nice here but right now hes to slight. Id certainly replace 1 of the wings with the speed/disposal of a Cripps/Ledger aka Austin Jones some years ago. Id also reserve the sub for the other of these 2 players not on a wing.......

Gilbert stays back - simply is a turn over merchant and combined with Gram could be a nightmare.

My only other thought is that I actually think ruck-wise we still miss Gardiner in the short term......especially without hayes in the guts...mids need all help they can get....but Im not sure how you play him, Kos amd Macca all in same side...or if you do.