Why do we follow the saints? A scientific explanation

[White Winmar]

Why on earth do we follow the saints? In 138 years, we’ve only saluted once. We’ve finished at the wrong end a record-breaking 26 times. With a record like that, if we were a private company we would’ve been wound up a century ago. Even as a government department, we would have run out of places to hide decades ago.

Despite all this, we enjoy a membership of 40,000, with a loyal and dedicated supporter base. Why? If we can crack the riddle of this incredible loyalty in the face of consistent and heartbreaking failures, the world would beat a path to our door. So what is it that makes us stick to the saints? I thought I’d look to science for the answer. The first few paragraphs involve behaviourism. Then I delved into the murkier world of brain chemistry. All opinions and thoughts will be gratefully received. Here goes.

Affect Perseverance:

Affect Perseverance occurs where an emotional preference continues, even after the thoughts that gave rise to the original emotion are invalidated.

Feelings are often independent of facts and evidence, and once initiated tend to take on a life of their own. Almost by definition, they are not rational. I really identify with this one

Disconfirmation bias:

When people are faced with evidence for and against their beliefs, they will be more likely to accept the evidence that supports their beliefs with little scrutiny yet criticize and reject that which disconfirms their beliefs. Generally, we will avoid or discount evidence that might show us to be wrong. Are we wrong to follow the saints, but just can’t bring ourselves to admit it?

Opponent-Process Theory

We have pairs of emotions that act in opposing pairs, such as happiness and sadness, fear and relief, pleasure and pain. When one of these is experienced, the other is temporarily suppressed. This opposite emotion, however, is likely to re-emerge strongly and may curtail or interact with the initial emotion.

Thus activating one emotion also activates its opposite and they interact as a linked pair. To some extent, this can be used to explain drug use and other addictive behavior, (such as barracking for the saints) as the pleasure of the high is used to suppress the pain of withdrawal.

Sometimes these two conflicting emotions may be felt at the same time as the second emotion intrudes before the first emotion wanes (sound familiar?). The result is a confusing combined experience of two emotions being felt at the same time that normally are mutually exclusive. Thus we can feel happy-sad, scared-relieved, love-hate, etc. This can be unpleasant but as an experiential thrill it can also have a strangely enjoyable element and seems to be a basis of excitement, or barracking for St.Kilda.

Dopamine:

Dopamine has many functions, including effects in behavior and cognition, movement, attention, motivation and reward, mood, sleep, and learning. Its impact on motivation and learning is of particular note for changing minds. It has also been linked with sociability.

It is believed dopaminergic neuron firing increases when a reward is expected (we anticipate winning a premiership 2009/10) and depressed when the reward is not forthcoming (the aftermath of 2009/10). This makes it highly significant in learning and behaving.

Dopamine creates pleasurable feelings when it is released. This happens when positive actions are undertaken, such as eating food, having sex and hoping your club finally wins that f&*king elusive premiership.

In practice there is a hypotheses about dopamine and reward that is particularly relevant to following the saints. It is Incentive salience (waiting & wanting): dopamine is released when there are stimuli worth working for, thus making us work harder to get it and boy do we ever work hard to get our rewards as Saints supporters.

Throughout history, mankind has deemed the heart the centre of love. But scientists tell us love is all in our mind or brain. And fuelled by chemicals and chemistry. This leads me to the next possible explanation

Infatuation:

When two people are attracted to each other, a virtual explosion of adrenaline-like neurochemicals gush forth. Fireworks explode and we see stars. PEA or phenylethylamine is a chemical that speeds up the flow of information between nerve cells.

Also, involved in chemistry are dopamine and norepinephrine, chemical cousins of amphetamines. As I’ve previously mentioned, dopamine makes us feel good and norepinephrine stimulates the production of adrenaline. It makes our heart race!

These three chemicals combine to give us infatuation and promote a kind of “blindâ€

[perfectionist]

Could you expand on that?

[avid]

Well, looks like they've got my entire psychic world mapped now.

[gringo]

Obviously we are all so high on dopamine we can't see winding up would be a better option.

Like all zealots we have an unhinged loyalty to a concept that requires unwavering faith beyond rational thought.

[Moods]

My mates always ask me in amazement when the Roys wound up in 1996, why I chose the saints to follow. After all the heartache following Fitzroy, why not follow a successful team they ask? What if the saints go under as well?

Bottom line - I loved the saints spirit, it's passion, and the players of that era were as exciting as any to follow. Plugger had left but I loved watching him play anyway. Winmar was a champion as was Harves. Burkey had real guts and you couldn't help but admire him. Loewey just kept clunking them. The supporter group always seemed a bit different. I always passionately believed that when the saints finally snag a premiership it will be one of the most memorable in the past 50 years. The spilling of emotion will be 10 fold of the swans in 05. Just look at what happened when we finally won a night flag in 95 (I think it was)

Who wants to be part of a club that wins flags like a production line? The hawks in the 80's. Their supporters just expected to play in a GF. That's not exciting, that's not real spirit - not to me anyway. The excitement is in the adventure getting there. The saints will get there one day - and when they do look out, it will hopefully all be worth it.

I have to believe that - because without hope, you haven't really got supporters, just drobes turning up.

[Zed]

Because when our time comes and we do win the big one, it will be a joy like no other - and one that every other club supporter will say far eclipses any GF joy they ever experienced .. The whole nation , no wait the whole cosmos, will rejoice

[asiu]

No girlfriend , motor bike , animal , mate , cricket or table tennis bat has been in my life longer.
They were my first drug.
They are my ONLY 'tribal' allegience.
My life , in many subtle ways , has run in parallel.
I honour ... Strength through Loyalty.
(i had it written above the entrance to my gallery)

I AM a st kilda boy.

and , Coz i am , i can say ,

The bit about ... almost by definition feelings are not rational , is psycho babble.

... before facts and evidence , your feelings already are.
This is self evident.

[Kilda]

This is the best post I've seen here for ages...someone really trying to understand what makes us the besotted supporters we are.

Someone mentioned the sense of entitlement that Hawthorn supporters had in the 80's...you could certainly add Carlton to that list. Those smug pricks...I remember like yesterday being at the 1996 Night GF at Waverley between us and the Blues. I was behind the goals in the upper deck that night...and unfortunately in the very back row were a band of Carlton fans who were really vocal from the start. They had this o so arrogant chant they recited slowly and loudly: 'Not one, not two, not three....not fifteen but sixteen"...

Then I had the misfortune of being allocated seats right next to the Collingwood Cheer Squad for the 2010 GF replay. Early in the 3rd Q when the flag seemed in their keeping, many of their cheer squad members were baiting for blood... turning on the nearby Saints supporters and threatening to beat us to a pulp like true thugs. And I just didn't get it. You've not won a flag for 20 years and yet you're not even watching the game anymore. You're out of your seat, hurling abuse to opposition supporters in the next aisle and wanting to start fights. Huh?

I don't know about anyone else on this site but when BJ marked and goaled to put us in front with 6.52 left on the clock, my body started to do some really weird things that I had no control over. It was some of the most intense experiences I've ever had- and in all 3 mins!

Sheesh, if the Saints do bloody do it one day, it will be rejoiced like not many others.

[saintspremiers]

I am nuts and that's why I follow St. Kilda.

How's that for scientific?

[starsign]

A pretty good study on a vexing problem you have forced me to revisit
And perhaps it warrants also looking at the psychiatry of masochism .

After a very lengthy and feverish period following my beloved Saints this same question has often crossed my mind
I am now beginning to think that I,and possibly other like souls, many may just actually have a tendency to derive pleasure from our own suffering!
I have come to this conclusion as there seems no other logical solution!

I now just refer to myself as a masochist when people laugh and query my Saintly allegiance

[starsign]

Double post , removed text but iPhone can't delete it
Or can I somehow ?

[SinCitySainter]

It is all to do with expectations. Saints supporters are the big dreamers, the great passions in our lives are internal and not from external influences.
A Collingwood, Essendon or Carlton supporter does not enjoy winning as such, but insteed receive sense of superiority when their club is doing well. Their very sense of self-worth is tied to how well a bunch of blokes they have no connection to kick an inflated bag of leather around an oval.
Saints supporters on the other hand don't just look at the result as to what is important, it is the nature of the club, it is the comradery of the supporters that make supporting the team important. When we lose there is always next week and no great wailing and gnashing of teeth. For us it is more about the process than the result, that is why we have a large number of artists and creative types counted in our midst.
Collingwood supporters want to win the premiership so they can lord it over other people not from any joy they receive in it themselves. We though will revel in the glow of the win on the day it comes.
I don't want to expect to win, I don't want to walk away from a game numbed to the the result because we are so used to winning it has become passe. I want to enjoy the highest of highs because I have experienced the lowest of lows. It is about the experience everything else is just wrapping.

[Dr Spaceman]

Double post , removed text but iPhone can't delete it
Or can I somehow ?

The power to delete has gone no matter what device you're using to access the forum.

[saint64]

Great post White Winmar. Now can you please get started on why it is that the Saints can't actually win a premiership. Was 1966 a glitch - some sort of cosmic mistake? Was there some sort of malfunction, or perhaps a breakdown in communication between the gods which allowed Barry Breen's kick to go through for a point (something which was rectified in 2010 to ensure the ball leg-breaked just out of Milney's reach)?

[White Winmar]

My dopamine rush went off the charts when I saw you'd posted on this topic Dr. S. My parasympathetic system quickly returned me to stasis when I found you had not offered your opinion. Come on Dr. S! Tell us what you think about this topic.

[loris]

White Winmar......... what is the odds that some journo reading this site will plagiarize your scientific research and present it as their own? Watch a daily newspaper coming to your suburb soon eh?

At least you have had more than 2 peer review your research on this august saintsational site.................... where FACT is never confused with opinion

[White Winmar]

Thanks Saint 64. The answer to the 1966 conundrum is indeed puzzling and troubling. It appears we live in a multiverse, consisting of an infinite number of universes. In many of these alternate realities, the saints have won dozens of premierships and have never finished last. Unfortunately for us, we inhabit a universe in which the saints are the perennial losers, always coming close, but never quite reaching the pinnacle.

That is, except for that fateful September day in 1966. Cosmologists and physicists from the future were manipulating the fabric of space-time, when they accidently ripped it, creating an artificial wormhole. It was through this wormhole that the "winning" Barry Breen entered the arena, replacing the original, whose kick was going to head out of bounds. From the resultant throw in, the filth swept the ball forward and scored, ensuring the saints would remain premirshipless in this harsh and cruel version of the universe.

Thank goodness the "winning" Breen disrupted this tragic scenario. As he burst through the wormhole and into the path of Ted Potter's errant handpass, he literally replaced the original Breen through the transference of his negative energy and dark matter. You know the rest. The kick wobbles through for a point and we win a premiership that was never meant to be. "Winning" Breen disappers back down the wormhole in a matter of 1 trillionth of a second, restoring original Breen. If you slow the video down to super slo mo, you can almost spot the moment of transition. Elsewhere in a number of alternate realities, saints supporters continue to celebrate a glut of premierships, while we remain in a cosmic purgatory. Hope that clears that up.

[saintbobby]

Thank you White Winmar. I loved your post. My hubby ( a fellow Saint Tragic) and I both laughed and laughed as we tried to decide which 'scientific explanation' fitted each of us and the reason that we both barrack for the Saints. I also totally agree with the following post about how the Collingwood supporters at the 2010 Grand Final Replay were only interested in baying for blood and wanting to thump Saints supporters. They had not won a flag for 20 years and yet all they wanted to do was stir and bash the opposition. Just like they were so rude and chanted over the top of Nick Reiwoldts congratulation speech, etc. I know, I was there. Saint supporters would have been so thrilled to win that second premiership that we would have been too busy dancing, cheering, hugging and being absolutely ecstatic to waste time even thinking of picking on the oppostion supporters. Maybe that is why we are Saints supporters and feel 'strength through loyalty', rather than the smug superiority shown by the supporters of more successful teams.

[PaytonPlace]

All I can say is what I always say when faced with intellectual and critical reasoning that seeks to assess my most irrational actions and place them into a framework of comprehensive understanding: and that is to paraphrase, in this case, my all time favourite philosopher...Patrick from Spongebob Square Pants.

The inner machinations of my St Kilda supporting mind are an enigma...

[saint64]

Thanks WW. That does clear it up.
Cheers

[White Winmar]

All I can say is what I always say when faced with intellectual and critical reasoning that seeks to assess my most irrational actions and place them into a framework of comprehensive understanding: and that is to parapharse, in this case, my all time favourite philosopher...Patrick from Spongebob Square Pants.

The inner machinations of my St Kilda supporting mind are an enigma...

As an admirer of your contributions to this forum, may I say, without trying to be the slightest bit creepy, I would love to explore that enigma and unlock its secrets.

[PaytonPlace]

All I can say is what I always say when faced with intellectual and critical reasoning that seeks to assess my most irrational actions and place them into a framework of comprehensive understanding: and that is to parapharse, in this case, my all time favourite philosopher...Patrick from Spongebob Square Pants.

The inner machinations of my St Kilda supporting mind are an enigma...

As an admirer of your contributions to this forum, may I say, without trying to be the slightest bit creepy, I would love to explore that enigma and unlock its secrets.

I'd do a photoessay on my St Kilda fandom and all it entails but it'd be massively long and off topic...

I do in reading this turn to Kierkegaard to try and intellectualise my St Kilda fandom...

What I really need is to get clear about what I must do, not what I must know, except insofar as knowledge must precede every act. What matters is to find a purpose, to see what it really is that God wills that I shall do; the crucial thing is to find a truth which is truth for me, to find the idea for which I am willing to live and die.

Obviously this truth to me is St Kilda (in this country)...If only it could fit as a membership slogan...

[saintly]

Obviously we are all so high on dopamine we can't see winding up would be a better option.

Like all zealots we have an unhinged loyalty to a concept that requires unwavering faith beyond rational thought.

i don't think we should talk about dopamine, considering the possible high side eefects. (see tasmanina MP)

[St. Luke]

Because it was as opposite as I could get to Collingwood

[White Winmar]

All I can say is what I always say when faced with intellectual and critical reasoning that seeks to assess my most irrational actions and place them into a framework of comprehensive understanding: and that is to parapharse, in this case, my all time favourite philosopher...Patrick from Spongebob Square Pants.

The inner machinations of my St Kilda supporting mind are an enigma...

As an admirer of your contributions to this forum, may I say, without trying to be the slightest bit creepy, I would love to explore that enigma and unlock its secrets.

I'd do a photoessay on my St Kilda fandom and all it entails but it'd be massively long and off topic...

I do in reading this turn to Kierkegaard to try and intellectualise my St Kilda fandom...

What I really need is to get clear about what I must do, not what I must know, except insofar as knowledge must precede every act. What matters is to find a purpose, to see what it really is that God wills that I shall do; the crucial thing is to find a truth which is truth for me, to find the idea for which I am willing to live and die.

Obviously this truth to me is St Kilda (in this country)...If only it could fit as a membership slogan...

"The truth is St.Kilda" would be a fantastic slogan. It appears your path is clear, PP. If only it was so for the many lost souls out there.

A further response to this question led me to my favourite philosopher, the great Frederich Nietzsche. In his work, The Dawn, he writes a great section about the idea of voluntary suffering. Basically, he discusses mankind's long history of valuing cruelty and suffering (especially self-inflicted) as honorable practices. He writes of the "most moral man" as the man who, through "frequent suffering, deprivation, a hard way of life, and of cruel self-mortification," attains virtue and thereby makes the whole community "look good" to the gods.

It would appear, my dear PP, that as saints supporters we have chosen a path that helps us create a better society.

PS. Have a crack at that photo essay about your "Saints Fandom". I'm sure it would be a worthwhile exercise. At the very least, it would provide a fascinating insight into the machinations of a "saint mind".