So now we have a mountain of cap space

[saintsRrising]

Chance to front load contracts too...important times for the list manager...

Yes front ending worked real well with Ball.

If you are going to do it, it has to be fora period that includes lesser oay, or you run the risk of them just walking.

[SuperDuper]

Well it is all that not easy to walk when you are contracted. But sure you need to be a bit careful. Chose the right players. Rewards are worth the risk if done well

[Dave McNamara]

Front ending contracts is the thing to do now. Bring forward any salary that is possible to do so. Will mean several years with salary cap freedom and opportunities to recruit. Once you are 'ahead' due to front ending, that can cycle through indefinitely if done wisely.

Great point SuperD... you seem to be making a habit of this.

I've also been thinking about this sorta thing, though I hadn't gotten as far as your rolling cycle concept. (Maybe that shows that great minds and less than great minds can still think alike?)

There's a possible pitfall though?

What if a bloke is on a very heavily front loaded say 3 year deal, with an 'in AFL terms' pittance in the final year. Like say Luke Ballsup who is reported on pretty much basic match payments for his final year. If said player once again decided he wanted to take his bat and ball and bail on yet another club, any club wanting to try and bounce Ball away would not have to match some huge salary/try to fit it into their salary cap - at least for when they take over that last year of his contract.

Whereas if a contract is back ended, should player Ball bail, any potential club has to fit a much larger payment into their salary cap (irrelevant though if said club is the Swines ), so by bailing again in that senario, Ball would potentially be risking ballsing up more money also? Or maybe not...?

What do the more knowledgeable think...?

[SuperDuper]

Yes.. agreed... Front ending certainly has risks!

It worked for ballsup and the pies though....

And if you pull it off, it means theoretically you can front end up and comers when not challenging.... then bring in a couple of FAs when you feel you are ready to challenge...
Effectively the worth of your list becomes less than your TPPs during the period when you challenge because you moved some of it to the period when you did not....
certainly just ""in theory" and things could f^& up... But I am sure teams that dont care *too much* about risking a few extra dollars would be looking at this type of thing... e.g. Collingwood, whose spending is restricted by the Salary Cap, and not by their ability to raise money.... All they risk is losing some money if a player renegs on the contract... they do not risk sanctions....

Maybe I am naive, but I for one think that if the player is getting well treated by the club, it would be very rare for them to accept a front ended contract cynically .. most would honor them unless something unforeseeable happened such as a new coach resulting in loss of game time

[bergholt]

Pretty sure he had a contract for 2013, so his contract is not necessarily taken off the salary cap. It depends if he has breached his contract, otherwise we still have to pay him.

Yeah, agreed. I reckon we'll still have to pay him in 2013's salary cap. We could have paid out that contract in 2012's cap, though, if we had room - but that seems unlikely.

[plugger66]

Pretty sure he had a contract for 2013, so his contract is not necessarily taken off the salary cap. It depends if he has breached his contract, otherwise we still have to pay him.

Yeah, agreed. I reckon we'll still have to pay him in 2013's salary cap. We could have paid out that contract in 2012's cap, though, if we had room - but that seems unlikely.

Exactly and its to late to worry about space for 2013 unless we are going to overpay some hack footballers.

[ace]

If Gram was on a back ended contract, and we terminate that contract and don't pay out his last year, the club may well get sued. It's not fair on Gram to agree to a contract that will pay him more later on, to accomodate our salary cap, and then not have that payed out.

He recently signed a one year extension due to a clause in his past contract, I don't think there will be any back-ending owing…

There is a lot of back-end owing.
Gram should be bent over and his back end used as a football.

[dragit]

Pretty sure he had a contract for 2013, so his contract is not necessarily taken off the salary cap. It depends if he has breached his contract, otherwise we still have to pay him.

Yeah, agreed. I reckon we'll still have to pay him in 2013's salary cap. We could have paid out that contract in 2012's cap, though, if we had room - but that seems unlikely.

What happens if he goes to another club next year though? Surely he can't be counted under both clubs caps? We won't be paying a percentage of his wage for another club as it is a dismissal.

I reckon another club will take a chance with him, was playing pretty decent footy recently, his issues while serious could be sorted out relatively quickly… a new girlfriend would be a good start.

[evertonfc]

My understanding is that...

- it's 500k+
- we'll be paying it out
- it will be included in the cap
- we have to cop it on the chin

So be it. We have to set a standard. We're not going to win the flag in 2013 but we might as well build the right culture so that when we are next ready, we'll go all the way.

Though a fine player on his day - and his sensational decision to come off the line late in the 09GF to knock the ball out - he was grossly overpaid.

Gram's lackadaisical nature has been commented on by a few won't be missed, either. Fancied himself a bit as "an AFL star" when out and about. Never was like that as a young bloke (not sure when that changed).

He turns 29 in April, so I'm not that shattered from a club point of view.

From a personal point of view, as a human being, I hope he sorts his life out - and can move on to find somebody who wants to be with him. Lay low, go and hang out in the US for a while, do the Miami bling thing you love so much, etc...just get it sorted out and move on with your life.

[dragit]

Good post Everton… 500 clams wow…

[The Redeemer]

My understanding is that...

- it's 500k+
- we'll be paying it out
- it will be included in the cap
- we have to cop it on the chin

So be it. We have to set a standard. We're not going to win the flag in 2013 but we might as well build the right culture so that when we are next ready, we'll go all the way.

Though a fine player on his day - and his sensational decision to come off the line late in the 09GF to knock the ball out - he was grossly overpaid.

Gram's lackadaisical nature has been commented on by a few won't be missed, either. Fancied himself a bit as "an AFL star" when out and about. Never was like that as a young bloke (not sure when that changed).

He turns 29 in April, so I'm not that shattered from a club point of view.

From a personal point of view, as a human being, I hope he sorts his life out - and can move on to find somebody who wants to be with him. Lay low, go and hang out in the US for a while, do the Miami bling thing you love so much, etc...just get it sorted out and move on with your life.

Why should we cop it on the chin though?

If I am either poor at my job or do not adhere to behavioural standards then I am sacked with two weeks pay.

Should I take my work to court considering I did the wrong thing?

Gram can f*** off

[bergholt]

Why should we cop it on the chin though?

If I am either poor at my job or do not adhere to behavioural standards then I am sacked with two weeks pay.

Should I take my work to court considering I did the wrong thing?

Gram can f*** off

You get what your contract says you get. Gram's contract seems to say that we can only avoid the payout in the case of gross misconduct, and this probably doesn't fall under that definition. It's not clear cut but I reckon we pay it out as opposed to getting in a massive legal battle - that's not a good look.

[mad saint guy]

Next off season will be very, very interesting. We've freed up a whole lot of cap space already and there will be much more room next year.

Between the 2012 and 2014 season, gone are

Goddard (estimated) 550k
Gram 500k
Kosi 500k
Hayes 500k
Milne 400k


Plus Roo's salary has gone from 1 mil to 500k. And who will be getting bigger contracts? Armo, Steven, Saad...and that's about it. Stanley and Siposs are already locked away for a few years. We will have an absolute truckload of space next year and it wouldn't surprise me if we signed two big-name free agents.

[markp]

St Kilda and the players' union will continue to discuss his contract, but to sack him without honouring it, the Saints would have to prove serious and wilful misconduct under the collective bargaining agreement.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/the-afl ... 6507042245

Don't think they'll cop it on the chin.

[shmic_s]

I think we will be paying out some of his contract. Wouldn't think it will be the whole amount though.

[dragit]

St Kilda and the players' union will continue to discuss his contract, but to sack him without honouring it, the Saints would have to prove serious and wilful misconduct under the collective bargaining agreement.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/the-afl ... 6507042245

Don't think they'll cop it on the chin.

I can feel a court case, comin' on.

Wilful misconduct it certainly is… the severity will be the question.

[shmic_s]

Would it also depend on what the discussions were in the meeting back in September.
Warnings have been made by the club and the club has said he has been under an indefinate suspension since September 6th.

[Dr Spaceman]

I can feel a court case, comin' on.

Welcome aboard Jack Rush QC

[markp]

If I had to guess I'd say the AFLPA will publicly huff and puff, and quietly advise him to avoid court and negotiate a payout.

[Kiedis]

Saints are into free agency up to their necks! Which champ can we poach for 800,000 a year?

Just wont happen considering Watters comments about the future of the club and the model which has worked for Geelong/Filth etc. What sort of message would that send considering we lost BJ for money. We could poach some guns but wont be paying more than 500-600 max.

This is what's worried me about our 'new model'. Freeing up the salary cap is all well and good - one of the big positives spruked pre-Goddard departure. But what are we going to do with it? The sentiments of some re: free agency is that you combat the loss of a quality free agent by picking up a similar in quality player.

I thought this would be the case if Goddard left. BJ stays, great. He goes, and we've got room to move, to make some plays. Silver lining for an obvious loss.

Looking at all the money being offered around the competition, all the 'stars' on similar or even a lot more coin than BJ, who's going to want to play for us when they could earn double elsewhere? How are we going to buy any guns with all this new-found cash if we're not willing to pay the price of a gun? (regardless of perceptions of ridiculousness of said price).

BJ gone. Gram gone. to a lesser extent Cripps. I don't know..
Am I the only one that feels we deserve a little injection of quality after this off-seasons significant happenings? Not taking anything away from Lee & Hickey. But I have no doubt we will be a weaker side - BJ/Gram. Recent unearthing of their terribleness aside. I just hope with the departure of BJ we can eventually become a big player in free-agency ourselves. Not just be the ones that were f***** by it.

I worry about the next crop of 'elites' particularly if all we have to hang our hopes on each year is a 10-15 draft pick.

[Eastern]

Jon Ralph reporting that Gram would have been on $350,000 in 2013 !!

[mr six o'clock]

When trouble arose a couple of months ago , St kilda and the Aflpa and gram sat down and set conditions . As gram then broke these conditions we were able to sack him with the ok of the Aflpa .
He may have a preformance based contract such as 300k base plus boxes ticked ( Games played , etc..)
So we may only have to pay him his base amount , and if another club drafts him we may not have to pay at all !

[Dis Believer]

The logical conclusion formn the various reports is that Gram was on a sizeable contract with a clause for 2013. Activating that clause got him another year, but not at the previous "high water" mark of the previous main contract. SO he was abloe to force another year, but at a reduced rate. Seems fair and reasonable to me. But the reports are that he is sacked and terminated, therefore not being paid out.

[Saintersss]

Pretty sure he had a contract for 2013, so his contract is not necessarily taken off the salary cap. It depends if he has breached his contract, otherwise we still have to pay him.

Yeah, agreed. I reckon we'll still have to pay him in 2013's salary cap. We could have paid out that contract in 2012's cap, though, if we had room - but that seems unlikely.

What happens if he goes to another club next year though? Surely he can't be counted under both clubs caps? We won't be paying a percentage of his wage for another club as it is a dismissal.

I reckon another club will take a chance with him, was playing pretty decent footy recently, his issues while serious could be sorted out relatively quickly… a new girlfriend would be a good start.

If he goes to another club we pay the difference of his contract. So if he is currently on 500k, and gets signed for 200k, we only have to pay 300k.

I'm uncertain he will get picked up though, clubs just don't like controversy and Gram isn't a good enough player for another club to take a risk on. If it were someone like Dal, maybe, but clubs are today too scared of picking up a player with baggage, rightly or wrongly.

Anyway considering we couldn't even say Lovett breached contract and still had to pay him out partly, I don't think there is any chance we will be able to say Gram has breached his contract, unless he had specific clauses in there.

[stinger]

Do ou really think gram was on that much? Maybe 300k imo

350, i believe