How good are Armo and Steven actually?

[WinnersOnly]

IMO Ledger will be a better inside mid that both Armo & Steven.

[bergholt]

Armo has all the skills but doesn't win enough of the ball imo. Steven wins plenty of the ball but doesn't always do enough with it.

Last year Armo averaged 20.3 possessions a game, Jack averaged 20.2.

[joffaboy]

I remember not so long ago posters on here bemoaning the fact that our best midfielder by the length of the straight was a 37 y.o.

Everyone was worried that when Harvs retired that our mids would be a real let down. Well harvs retired in 2008 and we then went OK for the next couple of years.

I remember people bagging Lenny, Dal, bj, Joey, saying that Lenny was too slow and not a Harvs replacement, Dal drifted out fo games, bj was a GOP at best, and Joey was just a B grader.

Not saying Jack or Armo will rise like the above did, just saying that the same ground gets covered and the fear is that those coming up wont replace those leaving.

I think there is a lot of negative bagging of Jack and Armo in this thread that is unwarranted.

[matrix]

First time I think I've seen Armo so trim arriving to preseason a month or so ago?

Jack needs to (and just a casual ob on my part) work on removing the dark sags under his eyes to truly take it to another level.

I know its your opinion but what does that actually mean? I reckon that wouldnt have an effect on his footy and having seen him up close many times i have never seen them anyway.

next time you rub oil of ulay on his visage tell him from us he needs more beauty sleep

[PJ]

Armo made significant improvement last year in terms of possessions. He's a work horse and definately has a role to play in the midfield but I wouldn't be putting star label on him unless he can develop a tank like Lennys. He seems to rise to a challenge which is a real positive - you can't question his endeavour.

Jack - same as everyone has said needs to get better with decision making and delivery, simple as that.

[loris]

Armo made significant improvement last year in terms of possessions. He's a work horse and definately has a role to play in the midfield but I wouldn't be putting star label on him unless he can develop a tank like Lennys. He seems to rise to a challenge which is a real positive - you can't question his endeavour.

Jack - same as everyone has said needs to get better with decision making and delivery, simple as that.

Nut shell PJ, Nut shell. +1

[dragit]

I remember not so long ago posters on here bemoaning the fact that our best midfielder by the length of the straight was a 37 y.o.

Everyone was worried that when Harvs retired that our mids would be a real let down. Well harvs retired in 2008 and we then went OK for the next couple of years.

I remember people bagging Lenny, Dal, bj, Joey, saying that Lenny was too slow and not a Harvs replacement, Dal drifted out fo games, bj was a GOP at best, and Joey was just a B grader.

Not saying Jack or Armo will rise like the above did, just saying that the same ground gets covered and the fear is that those coming up wont replace those leaving.

I think there is a lot of negative bagging of Jack and Armo in this thread that is unwarranted.

I don't think there has been much negative bagging at all, mainly level headed analysis,
Most people agree, they both appear to be outside the top 50 mids at the moment, both with with plenty of potential improvement but A-grade is unlikely for either.

[plugger66]

IMO Ledger will be a better inside mid that both Armo & Steven.

What is that based on? Cant be form in the AFL as we have hardly seen Ledger because 2 coaches havent deemed him good enough yet.

[shmic_s]

Steven: can see him becoming a Dane Swan type. Runs all day, get clearances, not super damaging by foot. Possible top 20 mid.

Armo: seems to be a great club man (think Baker, Milne). Think Jack will be better, less chance Armo becomes a top 20 mid IMO. But he has his role and will continue to remain in the side.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

to grade where they sit right now the question to ask is would the sit in the best 22 at other clubs at this stage ... in honesty i could see them in the best 22 of half the teams in the comp , but could not see them starting at any of the teams i feel are in a shot of the flag

[Dave McNamara]

I lost count of the number of posts, but I did count to 65 blokes being listed as mid fielders... before anyone mentioned that once-elite HBF floater and multi-positional pinch hitter bloke who has recently maxed-out Effndum's salary cap...?

Hmmmmmmmmmm...





Back to the topic & IMHO:
Armo' is getting better all the time. The penny seems to have dropped. He will be very good.
Jack... seems the penny is 'in the process' of dropping. His kicking ability is fine... doesn't miss too many shots on goal, hardly ever misses a set shot. He just needs to steady a bit more on the burst, which is developing. Will be elite!

Go Armo', go Jack!

[bigcarl]

Armo has all the skills but doesn't win enough of the ball imo. Steven wins plenty of the ball but doesn't always do enough with it.

Last year Armo averaged 20.3 possessions a game, Jack averaged 20.2.

Ah, okay. I must have been judging Armo on previous years performances.

Let's hope the improvement is here to stay.

[Choppa]

A lot of players really improve after 50 to 60 games. Armo (71 games) lifted considrably last year and Jack (51 games) is on the cusp. Plenty of room for improvement in my opinion.

[Saints43]

IMO Jack is a player who can turn contests our way. Blokes like that are gold. Composure will come with game time, trust from teammates and resposibility from the coach. Could be a top midfielder.

[bergholt]

I lost count of the number of posts, but I did count to 65 blokes being listed as mid fielders... before anyone mentioned that once-elite HBF floater and multi-positional pinch hitter bloke who has recently maxed-out Effndum's salary cap...?

I specifically left him out, actually, along with Scotland, Birchall and Gibbs, players like that, who don't play through the midfield much. Didn't want to open that can of worms!

[noob]

Midfielders that are probably middle of the road at best. Both don't strike to me as future A-grade players but half decent players. Nothing wrong with that but you need a super talent like Hayes or Dal Santo to get to the top.

[Kickit]

Supercoach rank's them as 71st ( Steven ) and 84th ( Armitage ) with Armo at a level similar to Adelaide's Vince, and Steven at a level similar to Daniel Rich or Chris Masten. Note that Dustin Martin is also down at that level.

Armitage stagnated for around three years getting around 15 disposals per game.
Last season he got to an average of 20, and got close to getting 30 on a couple of occasions. I wouldn't be writing him off just yet. A similar improvement next year and

Jack gets a similar amount of the ball but does a bit more tackling. ( Explaining his higher SC score ).

I'd like to think that with an improvement in our rucking, both of them can win a bit more of the "contested" ball.

Interestingly Lenny, DalSanto and the other utility who points a lot were all in the mid 30s for Supercoach, around the same level as Brad Ebert .

[Zed]

Jack turns 23 this year so still has the possiblity of some further upside. Dave is hopfully starting to find a little more consistency. Reallistically Jack should go past Dave this year, but Dave still has a role to play over the next 3 or so years.

[Con Gorozidis]

Cant take anything away from Armo's attitude.
Sure he lacks pace but his attitude is A1. A real warrior.

[BigMart]

Armo is solid

Jack is Flashy but butchers it

[St. Hellrider]

I don't believe Steven is a bad kick, he ain't bad at set shots. More his composure, running to fast when he kicks, and kicking with lack of a target. Will get better once he learns not to panic.

Agee with the above post, the more effective hit outs from mcevoy( big year this year) the more touches these 2 are gonna get, just like the kids over in Perth.

[Teflon]

Armo is solid

Jack is Flashy but butchers it

I think Jack is more than flashy - flashy is like Daniel Pearce

Jack tackles and does win his ball but he's a rabbit in headlights and panicks

I do agree with whoever said he can influence the game though... I've seen periods in games where Steven has really had quite an impact and had he not then kicked the ball along the ground I suspect would have drawn opposition attention.

Disposal/decision making IF he gets them to Dane Swan level (who is no Pendles/Dal) then he can go A grade

Armo - think Steven Powell. Solid and needed but not Mitchell as an extractor

[skeptic]

Nice point JB

ppl forget that our premium players weren't always premium players

Dal and Lenny weren't frequently flagged as drifters til about 5 years ago

hence the importance of continuing to persevere with players that show something rather than play them 2-3 times, dump them for not being good enough and replace them with McQualter etc because they're already at their peak

[White Winmar]

Armo is solid

Jack is Flashy but butchers it

I think Jack is more than flashy - flashy is like Daniel Pearce

Jack tackles and does win his ball but he's a rabbit in headlights and panicks

I do agree with whoever said he can influence the game though... I've seen periods in games where Steven has really had quite an impact and had he not then kicked the ball along the ground I suspect would have drawn opposition attention.

Disposal/decision making IF he gets them to Dane Swan level (who is no Pendles/Dal) then he can go A grade

Armo - think Steven Powell. Solid and needed but not Mitchell as an extractor

He's good at jumping as well. Does that make him "jumping Jack Flash"? OK it's early and it's the best I could come up with.

[dragit]

Nice point JB

ppl forget that our premium players weren't always premium players

Dal and Lenny weren't frequently flagged as drifters til about 5 years ago

hence the importance of continuing to persevere with players that show something rather than play them 2-3 times, dump them for not being good enough and replace them with McQualter etc because they're already at their peak

Fanciful argument at best, Lenny won a B&F & AA in 03, while Dal had numerous top 5 B&F results plus was 3rd in the brownlow in 2005 - 8 years ago, younger than both Armo & Jack now.

I don't think anyone is suggesting they should be dropped, just thinking about where they rank in the league right now... Would like nothing better than if they got anywhere near Dal & Lenny, but right now they aren't tracking that trajectory. Who knows though.