Time for Roo to move up the ground

[Jacks Back]

It's a real catch-22 situation.

On the one hand we look for Roo WAY too much for our own good.

On the other hand he is such an imposing figure and runs and presents all day that if we don't kick it to him our players may then cop a spray from him and they obviously don't want that.

[Saint wagga]

Good thread...I thought straight after watching the game about if it would be good for Roo to be trialled in a Richo type way on the wing just roaming up and down and having a forward line of Stanley, Lee and Siposs, Billings and another small forward type, schneider, Milera, Saunders, Weller etc...There were quite a few times when there were big pack crashes and we just had no small crumbers in the right spot, actually we had knowone else near the ball and Carlton had 2-3 players and rebounded easily...I think Richo acknowledged that we needed more players forward of the ball when going inside 50...Not just the big clunking marks, but mids streaming forward, flankers streaming forward...that comes down to run and reading the flow quicker than the opposition and that comes with more time and experience and bigger tanks form some of our younger players...At the end of the day, it's pretty unlikely that Roo will play a drastically different style of game, so hopefully the other forwards can take a leaf out of Billings book and find space and attract the ball more consistently!!

I thought we had an unlucky night in front of goal, it happens.

Thought Siposs tried hard and was worthy of holding his spot - he looked to have a bigger work rate and certainly looks to have filled out and command more strength both in the air and in the contest...IMO

Thought Stanley had a very quiet game...but find me a key forward who has never had one of those before...the key is how does he respond, i'm hoping he gets pumped and determined to have a big game next week, thats a trait the best forwards seem to have.

[SainterK]

It would be nice to see some of our forward entries again from a helicopter view and see what other options there were when we went inside forward 50. I get too involved in the game to give any in depth of analysis but I know Roo presents every time.

I was also disappointed with Lenny kicking 15m to a well covered Roo. What would he have seen if he looked up?

Maybe our other forwards need to be more demanding and more stroppy when they don't get the pass.

I remember that one in particular, Jones was a better option, there was also someone else who'd pushed into the fifty can't remember who.

In all honesty, it was about another 5 metres and Len could of had a ping himself.

[bigballs]

Richo admits that we're too Roo-conscious, so if using Roo more as a decoy to get more goals on the board is the way to go, then so be it.....do it!! This is where blokes like Stanley, Siposs, Schneider, Billings and possibly even Lee or Milera come into it, these guys need to create more space and ultimately more opportunities. Roo can still get his two or three, but we have to have a more even spread of goalkickers if we are to improve.

Let's hope he can tweek the game plan around enough to make a difference. Roo might not like it, but Roo has to think of what's better for the team, not what's better for him!!

[SainterK]

He is in line for AA selection.. Would you really move him? No..

What's AA got to do with developing the team?

Frawley is an AA defender.

You play where is best for the team.

This issue has been existent for a long time.

It was ok the first few rounds, but it's not fair for one guy to shoulder the entire responsibility of the forward line.

When he was off the ground, how many scoring shots did we have? Felt like a lot....

[dragit]

It's time for Tom Lee to get involved, is his match fitness still down?

His form has been solid so far in the 2's, if his body is right, he should play IMO.

The longer we put off getting ready for post-Riewoldt the harder it will be. Riewoldt is being used as a crash & bash player at the moment which his body cannot sustain, we need to get a lot smarter with our entries and utilise the spare players that we must have when Nick is triple-teamed.

[jonesy]

He is in line for AA selection.. Would you really move him? No..

What's AA got to do with developing the team?

Frawley is an AA defender.

You play where is best for the team.

This issue has been existent for a long time.

It was ok the first few rounds, but it's not fair for one guy to shoulder the entire responsibility of the forward line.

When he was off the ground, how many scoring shots did we have? Felt like a lot....

Spot on. There is no way the current way we are playing we are more potent with him in this current role/ball use to him. It's beyond comical. They need to spend 120 hours on it this week whipping it into the sheeps minds that they don't just direct every single kick to him when he has three on him and still laughably demands the ball. Either that or move him right away from the forward line and let him float around the half back line. If he has three on him every time,then where on earth are the other two without a player? Surely we are that predictable now that those in charge can catch the opposition off guard by trying the novel idea of going through players free.
They think this guy is Lockett,or Loewe...he isn't a great contested mark,so why kick it to him with 2,3 and 4 on him in a contested situation. When he runs his opponent into the ground and has them in a one on one running into space situation,then absolutely kick it him,but FFS, stop hitting him up 100% of the time!!!!

Have a look at Port, how potent are they forward,and the majority of play isn't through a key position forward.

[FQF]

To those questioning whether there were other targets to go to, there were.

One example, I think was in the third quarter. Billings was charging into the forward line with a good 5 metres gap between him and his opponent. He was also strongly calling for the ball. The ball could easily have been popped over Billings head who would have taken it without breaking stride and, knowing him, would have slotted it.

Instead, Riewoldt was making the most unlikely of leads, with literally no gap from his opponent.

What happens? They go to Riewoldt who can't hold it.

[clarky449]

He is in line for AA selection.. Would you really move him? No..

What's AA got to do with developing the team?

Frawley is an AA defender.

You play where is best for the team.

This issue has been existent for a long time.

It was ok the first few rounds, but it's not fair for one guy to shoulder the entire responsibility of the forward line.

When he was off the ground, how many scoring shots did we have? Felt like a lot....

Well he is having his best year since 2009, wouldn't what's best for the team, is playing where he is playing his best football? Imagine our forward line without Roo.. Would kick a goal

[Dave McNamara]

Yep, we're way too predictable.

Very hard being a key/marking forward at the Saintas whilst we are soooooo Roo fixated.

The forwards such as Sippa and Rhys Lightning need to just keep presenting... regardless of whether their leads are honoured or not... just keep presenting you blokes!

The blokes upfield need to look for the best option, not just the Roo option.

If Roo is covered, kick it somewhere else, even backwards!!! At least we keep the footy... and hey, in the meantime Roo can make some more leads to further run his opponents into the ground.

And if they really feel that they must kick it to a tag-teamed Roo... put it out in front of him, not on his head!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SainterK]

Think Ross created the problem.

Freo has the same issue now.

Seems happy to have one guy shouldering the forward line.

Maybe worked when footy was going through that heavily defensive style game, and everyone was buying in, not really now though.

Key forwards aren't so integral to teams scoring, just look at the numbers key forwards are kicking to win the Coleman, not much.

[Old Mate]

We are not going to move forward until Roo gets his butt out from the forward 50 IMO. The team can still learn from Roo when he's out there no matter what position he's playing and wins is not the priority, development is.

[Loyally Numbed]

Absolutely insane to think moving Roo away from the forward line will fix anything. The idea has no logic at all IMO. Need to fix the problem, not create another one.

Why is it insane?
It's been raised before, but why not throw him down the backline?
When a team like the Hawks are a 100 points up, what is there to lose by trying different strategies in a game that there's no chance of winning?
It's not like he's getting a lot of ball anyway, and with his ability and fitness he may provide some drive out of the backline and make our players think differently going forward.
What is insane is having your best Player lolling about on a forward line with 2 opposition players hanging on to him like limpets and getting thrashed !

[spert]

If I was coach, I would have no hesitation in playing Roo as a deep FF to solve the Kick to Roo obsession. I would instruct him to play within 30 metres of goal and not to go running up the ground. It is bleeding obvious from the body language of our forwards in the games I've seen this year, that they are really hesitant to contest when Roo is in their vicinity, and they become watchers instead of contributors. Siposs was a classic case the other night- I reckon Roo needs to be told that he isn't the forward line, and there's a few other fowards that he need to encourage to share the load.

[Cairnsman]

Absolutely insane to think moving Roo away from the forward line will fix anything. The idea has no logic at all IMO. Need to fix the problem, not create another one.

Why is it insane?
It's been raised before, but why not throw him down the backline?
When a team like the Hawks are a 100 points up, what is there to lose by trying different strategies in a game that there's no chance of winning?
It's not like he's getting a lot of ball anyway, and with his ability and fitness he may provide some drive out of the backline and make our players think differently going forward.
What is insane is having your best Player lolling about on a forward line with 2 opposition players hanging on to him like limpets and getting thrashed !

It's insane because Roo has spent a career training and playing to be the best CHF in the league. There are a lot of Saints punters that pay money to go and watch him play this position alone and when your team is languishing at the bottom of the ladder it's helpful to have as many reasons as possible to lure the punters through the turnstiles. But that is probably the least of what the club considers when they think about how to rebuild the list.

Back on Roo and all of the training and playing he's done at CHF, do people think that if they move him into a midfield or backline position that he will just automatically be competent, even serviceable in that position, maybe, he is a freak after all but I doubt it. He is a lead up forward and his main weapon these days is his straight line endurance. He's got the turning circle of the Queen Mary 2 and that is no disrespect to him, it's just where he's at.

Putting him into a position where he needs to bend down below his hips would be insane, so scratch out a midfield position.

Putting him into a position where you need to be agile and bend below the hips would be insane, so scratch out a backline position.

What do you mean he's not getting a lot of the ball anyway, have you been watching any of the matches this year.

I agree that it's insane having 2 or three players hanging off Roo but also insaner having loose players out in space jumping and yelling like lunatic ravers catching a cold.

The problem is not Roo, its not the coach, its our midfield, they are the ones ignoring the lunatic ravers in our forward line.

[SainterK]

I think it's insane to subject his body to the collisions and bashing crashing he is being subjected to at the moment.

You want to extend his career, that's not the way to do it.

You also overrate our delivery inside 50, bending below the hips is a prerequisite....

[Cairnsman]

I think it's insane to subject his body to the collisions and bashing crashing he is being subjected to at the moment.

You want to extend his career, that's not the way to do it.

You also overrate our delivery inside 50, bending below the hips is a prerequisite....

Yeah moving him into the middle or backline should wrap him up in cotton wool.

I rate our delivery inside 50 exactly where it's at...not very good which is why I argue the problem is with the midfield.

Moving Roo away from CHF to try and fix problems in other parts of the ground would be a serious fail.

[Pleasing]

Roo has been brilliant this year, his kicking has taken him to a new level, the fact we kick to him too much is not his fault. It is an issue of confidence, composure and deference. You see it in other parts of the ground too. Young players making unecessary handballs to Hayes and Montagna etc. Not judging options based on their merit simply deferring to the senior guys. It is the same with the other forwards worrying more about getting out of Roo's way than winning the ball themselves.

This is a natural part of players development about half our team at present are yet to cement themselves as AFL standard footballers. Confidence and feeling you belong on the field takes time for most players some longer than others. For some it can take years Gwilt, Brett Voss, Dempster some never get there (Raph). Some rare exceptions have it day 1 like Dunstan. However till they get to that point indecision, hesitation and defference to senior teamates will inhibit players natural instincts and they will be more focussed on surviving than thriving. Stanley and Sipposs are two of the most obvious cases of this in the current team, both have rare talent but appear hesitant to impose themselves on the game.

Good positive coaching/mentoring, consistency in selection and more games are required, there are no shortcuts and no mesihahs. Moving Roo would last till about half time of the first game we tried it, the scoreboard would demand we change back. How do you think Rhys would go if he got the best defender and was the focus of the oppositions defence.

[Cairnsman]

Roo has been brilliant this year, his kicking has taken him to a new level, the fact we kick to him too much is not his fault. It is an issue of confidence, composure and deference. You see it in other parts of the ground too. Young players making unecessary handballs to Hayes and Montagna etc. Not judging options based on their merit simply deferring to the senior guys. It is the same with the other forwards worrying more about getting out of Roo's way than winning the ball themselves.

This is a natural part of players development about half our team at present are yet to cement themselves as AFL standard footballers. Confidence and feeling you belong on the field takes time for most players some longer than others. For some it can take years Gwilt, Brett Voss, Dempster some never get there (Raph). Some rare exceptions have it day 1 like Dunstan. However till they get to that point indecision, hesitation and defference to senior teamates will inhibit players natural instincts and they will be more focussed on surviving than thriving. Stanley and Sipposs are two of the most obvious cases of this in the current team, both have rare talent but appear hesitant to impose themselves on the game.

Good positive coaching/mentoring, consistency in selection and more games are required, there are no shortcuts and no mesihahs. Moving Roo would last till about half time of the first game we tried it, the scoreboard would demand we change back. How do you think Rhys would go if he got the best defender and was the focus of the oppositions defence.

You articulated much better than I could. Thank you. Surely we can lock the thread now.

[Loyally Numbed]

Absolutely insane to think moving Roo away from the forward line will fix anything. The idea has no logic at all IMO. Need to fix the problem, not create another one.

Why is it insane?
It's been raised before, but why not throw him down the backline?
When a team like the Hawks are a 100 points up, what is there to lose by trying different strategies in a game that there's no chance of winning?
It's not like he's getting a lot of ball anyway, and with his ability and fitness he may provide some drive out of the backline and make our players think differently going forward.
What is insane is having your best Player lolling about on a forward line with 2 opposition players hanging on to him like limpets and getting thrashed !

It's insane because Roo has spent a career training and playing to be the best CHF in the league. There are a lot of Saints punters that pay money to go and watch him play this position alone and when your team is languishing at the bottom of the ladder it's helpful to have as many reasons as possible to lure the punters through the turnstiles. But that is probably the least of what the club considers when they think about how to rebuild the list.

Back on Roo and all of the training and playing he's done at CHF, do people think that if they move him into a midfield or backline position that he will just automatically be competent, even serviceable in that position, maybe, he is a freak after all but I doubt it. He is a lead up forward and his main weapon these days is his straight line endurance. He's got the turning circle of the Queen Mary 2 and that is no disrespect to him, it's just where he's at.

Putting him into a position where he needs to bend down below his hips would be insane, so scratch out a midfield position.

Putting him into a position where you need to be agile and bend below the hips would be insane, so scratch out a backline position.

What do you mean he's not getting a lot of the ball anyway, have you been watching any of the matches this year.

I agree that it's insane having 2 or three players hanging off Roo but also insaner having loose players out in space jumping and yelling like lunatic ravers catching a cold.

The problem is not Roo, its not the coach, its our midfield, they are the ones ignoring the lunatic ravers in our forward line.

Well, Roo may or may not be the next Superstar backman, but he could at least compete in the air with the likes of the Roughheads, Hawkins, Petries and Clokes and bring the ball to ground, hopefully to our advantage. None of these big forwards are going to win any agility contests.

Regarding 'not get a lot of the ball', did you see how much we scored against Hawthorn? Well, at least he got a good rest !

As for the 'Roocentricity', wouldn't the fact that he is not there be an incentive for the rest of the team to develop alternative goal scoring movements, it seemed to when he was injured.

His competitiveness is part of the problem, we'vw all seen him carry on when he doesn't get it kicked to him.

As, I said what difference would it make to try it when you're down by a 100 points?

How many 'Punters' are going to keep going to matches where we get thrashed?

[Cairnsman]

Absolutely insane to think moving Roo away from the forward line will fix anything. The idea has no logic at all IMO. Need to fix the problem, not create another one.

Why is it insane?
It's been raised before, but why not throw him down the backline?
When a team like the Hawks are a 100 points up, what is there to lose by trying different strategies in a game that there's no chance of winning?
It's not like he's getting a lot of ball anyway, and with his ability and fitness he may provide some drive out of the backline and make our players think differently going forward.
What is insane is having your best Player lolling about on a forward line with 2 opposition players hanging on to him like limpets and getting thrashed !

It's insane because Roo has spent a career training and playing to be the best CHF in the league. There are a lot of Saints punters that pay money to go and watch him play this position alone and when your team is languishing at the bottom of the ladder it's helpful to have as many reasons as possible to lure the punters through the turnstiles. But that is probably the least of what the club considers when they think about how to rebuild the list.

Back on Roo and all of the training and playing he's done at CHF, do people think that if they move him into a midfield or backline position that he will just automatically be competent, even serviceable in that position, maybe, he is a freak after all but I doubt it. He is a lead up forward and his main weapon these days is his straight line endurance. He's got the turning circle of the Queen Mary 2 and that is no disrespect to him, it's just where he's at.

Putting him into a position where he needs to bend down below his hips would be insane, so scratch out a midfield position.

Putting him into a position where you need to be agile and bend below the hips would be insane, so scratch out a backline position.

What do you mean he's not getting a lot of the ball anyway, have you been watching any of the matches this year.

I agree that it's insane having 2 or three players hanging off Roo but also insaner having loose players out in space jumping and yelling like lunatic ravers catching a cold.

The problem is not Roo, its not the coach, its our midfield, they are the ones ignoring the lunatic ravers in our forward line.

Well, Roo may or may not be the next Superstar backman, but he could at least compete in the air with the likes of the Roughheads, Hawkins, Petries and Clokes and bring the ball to ground, hopefully to our advantage. None of these big forwards are going to win any agility contests.

Regarding 'not get a lot of the ball', did you see how much we scored against Hawthorn? Well, at least he got a good rest !

As for the 'Roocentricity', wouldn't the fact that he is not there be an incentive for the rest of the team to develop alternative goal scoring movements, it seemed to when he was injured.

His competitiveness is part of the problem, we'vw all seen him carry on when he doesn't get it kicked to him.

As, I said what difference would it make to try it when you're down by a 100 points?

How many 'Punters' are going to keep going to matches where we get thrashed?

You are right, Roughhead, Hawkins, Petrie and Cloke aren't likely to be moved into the backline either, not unless their coaches start taking LSD.

The Punters that don't go to the footy where when we are likely to get thrashed will probably be under the age of 35 I suspect and don't know much about what it was like to follow the club in the 70s and 80s and most of the 90s.

The rest of your post doesn't make sense.

[GRAMophone]

Great post Pleasing. I think this was why it was so refreshing with Eli for a couple of weeks. Some beautiful delivery into the forward line - best option - often not Roo. Some of the worst offenders of looking for Roo are Joey and Len.

[saintsRrising]

The problem is not Roo...it is the playets that do not think before they kick.

Coach needs to get hard nosed on it. THE coach should drag any player that kicks to a poor forward option. ...including when there are better options than Roo.

Half backs like Geary who just roost into the forward line should be dragged too.

[Cairnsman]

The problem is not Roo...it is the playets that do not think before they kick.

Coach needs to get hard nosed on it. THE coach should drag any player that kicks to a poor forward option. ...including when there are better options than Roo.

Half backs like Geary who just roost into the forward line should be dragged too.

The very suggestion takes my breath away.

[SemperFidelis]

Great post Pleasing. I think this was why it was so refreshing with Eli for a couple of weeks. Some beautiful delivery into the forward line - best option - often not Roo. Some of the worst offenders of looking for Roo are Joey and Len.

Agreed. We haven't adjusted well to not having a Milne type at the fall of the ball, especially with Schneids either being injured, banned or used more through the midfield. Losing Saad and not playing Milera emphasises the difference from years past.

I don't think we need to move Roo. He plays across 85% of the ground anyway. We need to either learn to hit him (and/or Stanley and/or Siposs or whoever) on the chest, or we re-implement the small crumbing forward support. Preferably both. And soon.