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damienc wrote:
If we lose him we are going to look like fools. People who can't get the job done. We look indecisive.
Why do we look indecisive and not Essendon being unreasonable?
Carlisle is NOT OURS. We lose nothing if he goes to Hawthorn.
Essendon are desperate to get rid of Carlisle before WADA suspends him for 2 years.
I don't think after this amount of time WADA will enforce 2 year bans -probably a smack on the hand like 2 or 4 weeks.
We are in a no win situation as we only have pick 5 to work with.
jaxons wrote:
We are staying strong, Carlisle is committed to getting to St.Kilda and we won't be bullied or railroaded by Essendon or anyone.
It's fine to say the club will stand firm and wont be bullied. I get that, and I believe the club will.
Will Jake and his management though? Will they crumble? Pretty juicy second option they've been offered.
Hopefully the Carlisle camp are on the same page as us. If they came out yesterday and said they were committed to St Kilda I would be more confident. Yes a note came from the club, as it should have, but nothing direct from the Carlisle camp.
Yes, they did. His Manager issued a joint statement with StKilda. Confirming their continued committment.
I want to stand for something. I'm a loyal person and I think at the end of my career it will be great to look back and know that I'm a St Kilda person for life.
- Nick Riewoldt. May 19th 2009.
I'm more interested in us building a quality midfield and recruiting the right players to do this. Carlise would just be icing on the cake if it came off, but we're not talking about a world beater there- just a big handy player. Hawthorn will still contest finals next season I expect, so it's largely irrelevant to us what they do.
No, I do not believe the club is being pig-headed.
This isn't the supermarket, you don't have to pay the ticket price.
Essendon have negotiated themselves into a better position, good for them, that doesn't mean we have to just meekly fold, it is still incumbent on those negotiating to get the best deal possible within our future plan, this may mean walking away.
As for Jake Niall's article what a bunch of tripe, 80% whacking us for not just giving Essendon what they want, followed by a paragraph suggesting it probably is in our best interest to keep pick 5.
Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friends.
If we traded pick 5 in the first couple of days the article would be likely saying "Saints capitulate and pay overs"
As others have said, we have valued Carlisle and (hopefully) do not go over what that is
If we miss out, so be it .. move on, happens every year where a trade doesn't go through
" A few will never give up on you. When you go back out on the field, those are the people I want in your minds. Those are the people I want in your hearts."
jaxons wrote:
We are staying strong, Carlisle is committed to getting to St.Kilda and we won't be bullied or railroaded by Essendon or anyone.
It's fine to say the club will stand firm and wont be bullied. I get that, and I believe the club will.
Will Jake and his management though? Will they crumble? Pretty juicy second option they've been offered.
Hopefully the Carlisle camp are on the same page as us. If they came out yesterday and said they were committed to St Kilda I would be more confident. Yes a note came from the club, as it should have, but nothing direct from the Carlisle camp.
Glad your not negotiating for us!
What about this from Carlisle camp:
"Carlisle’s manager Anthony McConville has also this afternoon reiterated that he would continue to seek a deal that would see his client join the Saints.
“Given Jake’s preference is to play at St Kilda, my focus is to work with the clubs to get him to his intended destination,” McConville said.
“I have full faith and confidence that all parties can work together to achieve a fair outcome for everyone."
jaxons wrote:
We are staying strong, Carlisle is committed to getting to St.Kilda and we won't be bullied or railroaded by Essendon or anyone.
It's fine to say the club will stand firm and wont be bullied. I get that, and I believe the club will.
Will Jake and his management though? Will they crumble? Pretty juicy second option they've been offered.
Hopefully the Carlisle camp are on the same page as us. If they came out yesterday and said they were committed to St Kilda I would be more confident. Yes a note came from the club, as it should have, but nothing direct from the Carlisle camp.
Glad your not negotiating for us!
What about this from Carlisle camp:
"Carlisle’s manager Anthony McConville has also this afternoon reiterated that he would continue to seek a deal that would see his client join the Saints.
“Given Jake’s preference is to play at St Kilda, my focus is to work with the clubs to get him to his intended destination,” McConville said.
“I have full faith and confidence that all parties can work together to achieve a fair outcome for everyone."
Surely this has to be all about what the player wants? Carlisle has said adamantly that he wants to come to the Saints. The Saints and the Bombers and Carlisle's management have an obligation to make that happen out of respect for the player. He is not a commodity although I'm sure some people see elite players that way. He deserves to have his wishes respected. I know everyone wants the best deal they can get but at the end of the day I hope that what Carlisle wants for himself will prevail. it is his right.
The one being pig headed is Dodoro. He has painted himself into a corner he can't escape from. I do lots of mediation and negotiating work and to me he is coming off as desperate. Even if he takes the Hawthorn deal, pick 15 and 18 are not as valuable as pick 5. No way. If our recruiters and list manager have done their homework properly, and the evidence of the past two years suggests they have, then standing firm on this is good negotiation, not pig headedness. I'm thrilled with how the club has conducted itself throughout this. From Wayne Hughes identifying Carlisle as a target early in the year, to Richo sweet talking him into wanting to be a saint and trout and Ameet doing the rest.
I'd love to have the mediator's job for this one, although I'd be hopelessly biased. If I could, I'd tell Dodoro to consider Jake and why he doesn't want to play for Essendope anymore. I'd tell him the saints are not going to give him pick 5 no matter what, a position the club has held firm on and has consistently maintained prior to and throughout the process.
I'd tell him that HIS pigheadedness creates a risk that Essendon gets nothing for him. I'd tell him that his own job has been under threat from an administration that is tired of his failures throughout the ten years he's been the list manager, and that his selfish stance is all about self preservation, not the best interests of the other parties involved. I'd tell him that no other club will look at giving him a job once he gets sacked, as he undoubtedly will in the near future (according to my sources at Tullamarine), for this fiasco and because his incompetence is mainly to blame for Essendope's pathetic playing list, which is in dire need of a complete overhaul. I'd tell him to stop negotiating through the media, with ill-timed leaks, barefaced lies (remember the Richmond "deal"anyone?) and arrogant and ill informed criticism of the party he's supposedly negotiating with. I'd tell him to have a good look across the table and see what professional, rational and competent men of integrity look like. That should do it, for now.
In the end, what this shows is that we indeed have a "new" football club. Unlike the bummers, we are on the rise and have a strong culture. Remember the bummers rabble which we're dealing with has only got itself to blame for its current predicament. They got caught cheating on their salary cap, in addition to their clumsy and unsuccessful attempt to cheat using banned substances. What a disgrace they are and they're doomed to stay at or near the bottom for many years to come. Finally, let's not forget the way they shafted us with Lovett. Unfortunately, we took the word of a narcissistic, drug taking cheat and a lying, senile, overrated old fool, both of whom are typical products of their environment. The only fault I can attribute to our club is that they dealt with these incompetents in the first place. Stuff them. If they don't like it, we move on. Nothing of any great value will have been lost. There, I feel much better now.
I started with nothing and I've got most of it left!
As with most people on the forum i agree we are now being pigheaded it is essendon that is being pigheaded. Keep pick 5, we need good midfielders as our engine room is only a 3 cylinder alto at the moment needs to be a V8.
1) we keep #5 and $700k which we can now concentrate on for another player
2) Essendon help their arch enemy win probably another flag
3) North who have a, at most, two year window, has just enabled their biggest rival for a flag to nullify Petrie than Brown.
4) We still get Freeman, Rice, Sinclair upgrade and whatever is #5
6) We don't get some serious trouble in Carlisle. if this is how much trouble he is getting to the club, I don't like the prognosis for future outcomes.
Facts are - Dodoro will only take #5.
He will tell Carlisle and his management that we are not offering a fair trade no matter what else we offer and he is going to Hawthorn.
So it comes down to do we give #5 or do we not give pick 5.
If we do Essendon have won the trade, if we don't we get pick 5 put we don't have Carlisle.
Just because Essendon think he is worth 5 doesn't mean he is. As mentioned 6000-700K can be better used. We need midfielders. Once we have a good engine room the rest will come. He was a second round pick. We can't afford to pay overs at the moment. No bet regret! No loss if we don't get him. Would be could to have him to complement what we have in the backline but not at the expense of our future.
Assuming that Carlisle only wants to play for the Saints, these are the ways for him to get to St Kilda.
1. St Kilda acquiesce and hand over pick #5.
2. Essendon acquiesce and accept St kilda's current offer - unsure what that is. If it is just 2nd round pick then we are just as delusional as Essendon.
3. Both clubs be patient and wait for the Dixon deal to be done and see if St Kilda and Gold Coast can arrange a swap of picks.
4. Essendon do not acquiesce and Carlisle goes into the PSD. The price he puts on his head must be big enough to rule Carlton out. Brisbane and GC wouldn't draft someone not prepared to travel and Essendon would be imbecilic to redraft him.
The Hawthorn offer is not an option if Carlisle doesn't want to play there. Money talks and we have plenty we have to spend.
White Winmar wrote:The one being pig headed is Dodoro. He has painted himself into a corner he can't escape from. I do lots of mediation and negotiating work and to me he is coming off as desperate. Even if he takes the Hawthorn deal, pick 15 and 18 are not as valuable as pick 5. No way. If our recruiters and list manager have done their homework properly, and the evidence of the past two years suggests they have, then standing firm on this is good negotiation, not pig headedness. I'm thrilled with how the club has conducted itself throughout this. From Wayne Hughes identifying Carlisle as a target early in the year, to Richo sweet talking him into wanting to be a saint and trout and Ameet doing the rest.
I'd love to have the mediator's job for this one, although I'd be hopelessly biased. If I could, I'd tell Dodoro to consider Jake and why he doesn't want to play for Essendope anymore. I'd tell him the saints are not going to give him pick 5 no matter what, a position the club has held firm on and has consistently maintained prior to and throughout the process.
I'd tell him that HIS pigheadedness creates a risk that Essendon gets nothing for him. I'd tell him that his own job has been under threat from an administration that is tired of his failures throughout the ten years he's been the list manager, and that his selfish stance is all about self preservation, not the best interests of the other parties involved. I'd tell him that no other club will look at giving him a job once he gets sacked, as he undoubtedly will in the near future (according to my sources at Tullamarine), for this fiasco and because his incompetence is mainly to blame for Essendope's pathetic playing list, which is in dire need of a complete overhaul. I'd tell him to stop negotiating through the media, with ill-timed leaks, barefaced lies (remember the Richmond "deal"anyone?) and arrogant and ill informed criticism of the party he's supposedly negotiating with. I'd tell him to have a good look across the table and see what professional, rational and competent men of integrity look like. That should do it, for now.
In the end, what this shows is that we indeed have a "new" football club. Unlike the bummers, we are on the rise and have a strong culture. Remember the bummers rabble which we're dealing with has only got itself to blame for its current predicament. They got caught cheating on their salary cap, in addition to their clumsy and unsuccessful attempt to cheat using banned substances. What a disgrace they are and they're doomed to stay at or near the bottom for many years to come. Finally, let's not forget the way they shafted us with Lovett. Unfortunately, we took the word of a narcissistic, drug taking cheat and a lying, senile, overrated old fool, both of whom are typical products of their environment. The only fault I can attribute to our club is that they dealt with these incompetents in the first place. Stuff them. If they don't like it, we move on. Nothing of any great value will have been lost. There, I feel much better now.
Dildo will never be sacked.
It is a rule in the mafia that a made man can never leave except in a wooden box or with concrete shoes.
He can only be redeployed to a job more suited to his lack of talent.
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
When I was a young child, I knew that I knew so much about so much.
Now that I am old and know so much more, I know that I know so much about so little, and so little about so much.
Good OP. We needed to get two picks in the teens very early on in trade week. Use one on Carlisle and get that deal done and keep one for the draft. When this didnt happen we left the door wide open. The fact is we never put a deal on the table. I think the horse has already bolted and we need to make sure we pick the best midfielder for our needs.
Life Long Saint wrote:Assuming that Carlisle only wants to play for the Saints, these are the ways for him to get to St Kilda.
1. St Kilda acquiesce and hand over pick #5.
2. Essendon acquiesce and accept St kilda's current offer - unsure what that is. If it is just 2nd round pick then we are just as delusional as Essendon.
3. Both clubs be patient and wait for the Dixon deal to be done and see if St Kilda and Gold Coast can arrange a swap of picks.
4. Essendon do not acquiesce and Carlisle goes into the PSD. The price he puts on his head must be big enough to rule Carlton out. Brisbane and GC wouldn't draft someone not prepared to travel and Essendon would be imbecilic to redraft him.
The Hawthorn offer is not an option if Carlisle doesn't want to play there. Money talks and we have plenty we have to spend.
Another option that hasn't been brought up on this thread is the exchange of future first-round picks.
How far into the future are clubs allowed to trade picks now?
I think that if we could trade our first-round pick in two years time (probably about pick 11-14), assuming we make the bottom half of the 8 that year, then that would be about the right value for Carlisle (i.e. a late first-round pick).
Otherwise, a player exchange might be our best option, but which good players can we afford to let go?
its time to make a name for yourself like you've never made before!
jaxons wrote:
We are staying strong, Carlisle is committed to getting to St.Kilda and we won't be bullied or railroaded by Essendon or anyone.
It's fine to say the club will stand firm and wont be bullied. I get that, and I believe the club will.
Will Jake and his management though? Will they crumble? Pretty juicy second option they've been offered.
Hopefully the Carlisle camp are on the same page as us. If they came out yesterday and said they were committed to St Kilda I would be more confident. Yes a note came from the club, as it should have, but nothing direct from the Carlisle camp.
Glad your not negotiating for us!
What about this from Carlisle camp:
"Carlisle’s manager Anthony McConville has also this afternoon reiterated that he would continue to seek a deal that would see his client join the Saints.
“Given Jake’s preference is to play at St Kilda, my focus is to work with the clubs to get him to his intended destination,” McConville said.
“I have full faith and confidence that all parties can work together to achieve a fair outcome for everyone."
Missed that. Fair enough.
Why is the club being so quiet? Why have we gone to ground?
_______________________________________________________________________
"Don't argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."
Life Long Saint wrote:Assuming that Carlisle only wants to play for the Saints, these are the ways for him to get to St Kilda.
1. St Kilda acquiesce and hand over pick #5.
2. Essendon acquiesce and accept St kilda's current offer - unsure what that is. If it is just 2nd round pick then we are just as delusional as Essendon.
3. Both clubs be patient and wait for the Dixon deal to be done and see if St Kilda and Gold Coast can arrange a swap of picks.
4. Essendon do not acquiesce and Carlisle goes into the PSD. The price he puts on his head must be big enough to rule Carlton out. Brisbane and GC wouldn't draft someone not prepared to travel and Essendon would be imbecilic to redraft him.
The Hawthorn offer is not an option if Carlisle doesn't want to play there. Money talks and we have plenty we have to spend.
Another option that hasn't been brought up on this thread is the exchange of future first-round picks.
How far into the future are clubs allowed to trade picks now?
I think that if we could trade our first-round pick in two years time (probably about pick 11-14), assuming we make the bottom half of the 8 that year, then that would be about the right value for Carlisle (i.e. a late first-round pick).
Otherwise, a player exchange might be our best option, but which good players can we afford to let go?
I think you can only trade the next years draft pick -not future years
For all this navel gazing - we STILL dont have an actual offer on the table for Essendon. We have had weeks to table an offer. We havent delivered. We needed to put up or shut up.
It was obvious that we needed either a pick 10-15 OR a pick + a player to get it done. We never actually came up with a suitable offer. We only have ourselves to blame. It's one thing for us to say no to pick 5 - that's fine - but its our responsibility to find a suitable deal - which we did NOT do.
Lets just move on.
To go on radio and give obvious back handed comments about a club you're attempting to trade with shows what a piece of s&*t Adrian Dodoro really is and how delusional Essendon people are about their current standing in the game.
Con Gorozidis wrote:For all this navel gazing - we STILL dont have an actual offer on the table for Essendon. We have had weeks to table an offer. We havent delivered. We needed to put up or shut up.
It was obvious that we needed either a pick 10-15 OR a pick + a player to get it done. We never actually came up with a suitable offer. We only have ourselves to blame. It's one thing for us to say no to pick 5 - that's fine - but its our responsibility to find a suitable deal - which we did NOT do.
Lets just move on.
We do now, God damn you're a negative piece of work.
prwilkinson wrote:To go on radio and give obvious back handed comments about a club you're attempting to trade with shows what a piece of s&*t Adrian Dodoro really is and how delusional Essendon people are about their current standing in the game.
Compare that approach with the professional way our team is handling this:
Statement from St Kilda FC Chief Operating Officer Ameet Bains:
“I’ve spent much of the day with Jake Carlisle’s manager and can absolutely confirm that Jake’s sole focus remains playing for the Saints in 2016. Further, Jake has confirmed this directly to our senior coach Alan Richardson when they spoke earlier today,” Bains said.
“I can also confirm that the Essendon Football Club has an offer before them to trade Jake to the Saints. We do not intend on providing running commentary on our negotiations and out of respect for Essendon we will not be publicly discussing the specifics of the proposal.
“But what I will say is that we have Jake and his management’s support for our proposal which we all believe is fair and reasonable and would achieve a satisfactory outcome for all involved.”
prwilkinson wrote:To go on radio and give obvious back handed comments about a club you're attempting to trade with shows what a piece of s&*t Adrian Dodoro really is and how delusional Essendon people are about their current standing in the game.
Compare that approach with the professional way our team is handling this:
Statement from St Kilda FC Chief Operating Officer Ameet Bains:
“I’ve spent much of the day with Jake Carlisle’s manager and can absolutely confirm that Jake’s sole focus remains playing for the Saints in 2016. Further, Jake has confirmed this directly to our senior coach Alan Richardson when they spoke earlier today,” Bains said.
“I can also confirm that the Essendon Football Club has an offer before them to trade Jake to the Saints. We do not intend on providing running commentary on our negotiations and out of respect for Essendon we will not be publicly discussing the specifics of the proposal.
“But what I will say is that we have Jake and his management’s support for our proposal which we all believe is fair and reasonable and would achieve a satisfactory outcome for all involved.”
jaxons wrote:
We are staying strong, Carlisle is committed to getting to St.Kilda and we won't be bullied or railroaded by Essendon or anyone.
It's fine to say the club will stand firm and wont be bullied. I get that, and I believe the club will.
Will Jake and his management though? Will they crumble? Pretty juicy second option they've been offered.
Hopefully the Carlisle camp are on the same page as us. If they came out yesterday and said they were committed to St Kilda I would be more confident. Yes a note came from the club, as it should have, but nothing direct from the Carlisle camp.
Glad your not negotiating for us!
What about this from Carlisle camp:
"Carlisle’s manager Anthony McConville has also this afternoon reiterated that he would continue to seek a deal that would see his client join the Saints.
“Given Jake’s preference is to play at St Kilda, my focus is to work with the clubs to get him to his intended destination,” McConville said.
“I have full faith and confidence that all parties can work together to achieve a fair outcome for everyone."
Missed that. Fair enough.
Why is the club being so quiet? Why have we gone to ground?
The Club put out a statement LATE yesterday on Saints current position....... that's not going to ground IMO, they informed members / supporters yesterday on the Saints AFL website. I'm sure they have more important things to concentrate on than talk thru the media every five minutes or put out press releases every time Essendope try another tactic.
