Chips
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skeptic
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Re: Chips
So just to clarify BM...
You are saying that you believe that in a one to one marking contest, that Fisher's ability to spoil or bring the ball to ground is "elite", and that this ability of his game is the near equal or better than all but a few other players in the league (as implied by the term elite).
Is that your opinion?
You are saying that you believe that in a one to one marking contest, that Fisher's ability to spoil or bring the ball to ground is "elite", and that this ability of his game is the near equal or better than all but a few other players in the league (as implied by the term elite).
Is that your opinion?
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Shaggy
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Re: Chips
Chips is elite. Top 3 saints in past 10 years IMO. I agree he can get pushed out as he is not that tall or heavy. But it is rare. He is a great interceptor. His reading of the play and general ability to get to the ball is elite.skeptic wrote:So just to clarify BM...
You are saying that you believe that in a one to one marking contest, that Fisher's ability to spoil or bring the ball to ground is "elite", and that this ability of his game is the near equal or better than all but a few other players in the league (as implied by the term elite).
Is that your opinion?
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skeptic
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Re: Chips
there is no debate as to whether he is elite or not
all I'm saying is that this one aspect of his game isn't as good as the others
all I'm saying is that this one aspect of his game isn't as good as the others
Re: Chips
And there's aspects of other defenders that are not as good as his...
His spoiling ability is not elite... Just reasonable.. If he is out of position
His ability to take a contested mark is elite... He takes plenty of contested marks for a defender... If he is in good position.
He started out life, like a lot of top defenders as a key forward (CHF)
He can take a grab.
Yes travois Cloke and tom hakins can out mark him... They can out mark most people
His spoiling ability is not elite... Just reasonable.. If he is out of position
His ability to take a contested mark is elite... He takes plenty of contested marks for a defender... If he is in good position.
He started out life, like a lot of top defenders as a key forward (CHF)
He can take a grab.
Yes travois Cloke and tom hakins can out mark him... They can out mark most people
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kosifantutti
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Re: Chips
He just got beaten by that gorilla Jeff Garlett.
Macquarie Dictionary Word of the Year for 2023 "Kosi Lives"
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skeptic
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Re: Chips
Hahahadragit wrote:So racist....kosifantutti wrote:He just got beaten by that gorilla Jeff Garlett.
Re: Chips
Let's look at his game against his direct opponent..... Apparently the best young Key fwd in the game.
With a dominant midfield after QT
Hogan
6k 3hb 2m 2g 1t 49DT
Fisher
15k 3hb 7m 1t 76DT
Hmm... You'd take that against their best player in a 4 goal loss from your key defender
And you'll find Gartlett ran rings around Webster who was disgusting
With a dominant midfield after QT
Hogan
6k 3hb 2m 2g 1t 49DT
Fisher
15k 3hb 7m 1t 76DT
Hmm... You'd take that against their best player in a 4 goal loss from your key defender
And you'll find Gartlett ran rings around Webster who was disgusting
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To the top
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Re: Chips
From Reports, we went in with Fisher and Dempster as our tall defensive options.
And left out Goddard, Delaney and Lee.
So I am assuming that the pressure was right on Fisher (again) today because I can not see that we had another key position defender in the side (the reason for Carlisle in my opinion).
Dempster is not a key defender.
Fisher obviously stood up tp be counted today - and that is exactly what you would expect from such an excellent defender with such an excellent career CV.
What concerns me is the reference to Webster, who I have taken on trust including because of his kicking and would have assumed is a starting 18 player.
None of Dempster, Wright, Webster or Geary, all of whom you would expect would have been deployed in defensive positions, impacted in terms of possessions and that, to me, appears a massive problem requiring remedial action.
Savage had 23 disposals - but, again to me, he lacks the required defensive skills and defensive positioning.
Gilbert had 25 disposals in the mid-field, and others so deployed had strong numbers (but resulting in what, exactly?)
I also note the lack of disposal impact from Weller, Membrey and Holmes - so we had plenty with sub double digit disposals and you do not win footy games when you have so many not winning and carrying the ball.
It may be that the requirement is to support Fisher with both Roberton and Gilbert (and Dempster who does not give the same run and carry option).
And it also appears to me that we have no option but to play Goddard (in preference to Delaney and Lee unless proven otherwise).
The same at the other end, where with Roo in the mid-field (where he should now be), we only had Bruce.
As with Goddard, Mc Cartin has to play for experience and structure.
We only have Bruce, Mc Cartin, Fisher and Goddard as our spine - at least in 2016.
And that list shows exactly how vital Fisher is - yet again.
And left out Goddard, Delaney and Lee.
So I am assuming that the pressure was right on Fisher (again) today because I can not see that we had another key position defender in the side (the reason for Carlisle in my opinion).
Dempster is not a key defender.
Fisher obviously stood up tp be counted today - and that is exactly what you would expect from such an excellent defender with such an excellent career CV.
What concerns me is the reference to Webster, who I have taken on trust including because of his kicking and would have assumed is a starting 18 player.
None of Dempster, Wright, Webster or Geary, all of whom you would expect would have been deployed in defensive positions, impacted in terms of possessions and that, to me, appears a massive problem requiring remedial action.
Savage had 23 disposals - but, again to me, he lacks the required defensive skills and defensive positioning.
Gilbert had 25 disposals in the mid-field, and others so deployed had strong numbers (but resulting in what, exactly?)
I also note the lack of disposal impact from Weller, Membrey and Holmes - so we had plenty with sub double digit disposals and you do not win footy games when you have so many not winning and carrying the ball.
It may be that the requirement is to support Fisher with both Roberton and Gilbert (and Dempster who does not give the same run and carry option).
And it also appears to me that we have no option but to play Goddard (in preference to Delaney and Lee unless proven otherwise).
The same at the other end, where with Roo in the mid-field (where he should now be), we only had Bruce.
As with Goddard, Mc Cartin has to play for experience and structure.
We only have Bruce, Mc Cartin, Fisher and Goddard as our spine - at least in 2016.
And that list shows exactly how vital Fisher is - yet again.
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Con Gorozidis
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Re: Chips
Is this thread about how good Fisher was at his peak or how good he is now? Two different things.
I think we need to clarify the scope of this thread so we arent at cross purposes.
I think we need to clarify the scope of this thread so we arent at cross purposes.
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gringo
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Re: Chips
We were behind the goals and I was surprised he and Jesse Hogan looked about the same size.BigMart wrote:Strange how some think Chips is some sort of medium defender.
Perhaps stand next to him and check out his chest and shoulders... he's a tank. and at 192 is the same hieght as Rutten, Glass, Rance, Harley, Grundy and loads of other Key backs.
he has played key back ever since 2004 and has never played as a medium back.... in that role (CHB)
he won 2 b&fs
was AA
Runner Up b&f
third b&f
that is as decorated as any champion key back.
i would argue... just on accolades
that Sam F was only behind Roo and Lenny from 2004-2012 as our 3rd best player.
Whist he is mobile, he actuall has average agility... and would get opened up by medium or small defenders. His rebounding strength came from running of tall fwds and being too mobile for them
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dragit
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Re: Chips
BigMart wrote:Fisher = elite key defender
So he was elite on Saturday, but come Monday he is now only very good?BigMart wrote:Fisher was elite
Is now very good
How quickly they fall away.
Hogan looked to be having an awful day out, he beat fisher for position plenty of times, but was dropping chest marks... Kicked 2.2 but could have easily had more... Was a pretty good duel overall.
Re: Chips
Not sure too many have actually stood toe to toe with Sam?
He's a huge unit, a phenomenal looking athlete ... Very similar size to Alex Rance.
Fishers career. He was an Elite defender... I was Putting pay to the rubbish that he's a running HB or ever was...
Because he's played his entire career as a CHB/FB/3rd Tall
In that role has won two B&fs and was an AA CHB... He finished top 5 in our b&f 5 years in a row... Name many other Key Backs who are that
He has of course fallen back from elite to VG in his 33rd and 34th year after missing nearly two full seasons.
Again...
Fisher = Elite Key Defender
Career
Fisher = VG Key Defender
2015/2016
As he winds down his career.
Riewoldt is also not the player he wAs at his peak... But he's still a handy player...
He's a huge unit, a phenomenal looking athlete ... Very similar size to Alex Rance.
Fishers career. He was an Elite defender... I was Putting pay to the rubbish that he's a running HB or ever was...
Because he's played his entire career as a CHB/FB/3rd Tall
In that role has won two B&fs and was an AA CHB... He finished top 5 in our b&f 5 years in a row... Name many other Key Backs who are that
He has of course fallen back from elite to VG in his 33rd and 34th year after missing nearly two full seasons.
Again...
Fisher = Elite Key Defender
Career
Fisher = VG Key Defender
2015/2016
As he winds down his career.
Riewoldt is also not the player he wAs at his peak... But he's still a handy player...
Re: Chips
Oh, and Dragit... He smacked Hogan.
You can at least admit that... Sometimes people are having a horror day, because of their direct opponent.
Last year Hogan kicked 3 in the first q uarter opposed to Delaney
You can at least admit that... Sometimes people are having a horror day, because of their direct opponent.
Last year Hogan kicked 3 in the first q uarter opposed to Delaney
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gringo
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Re: Chips
His best footy though was always when we had him BJ, Dempster, Zac and Blake all down there and he could run across the front and clean up with his marking. Him and goddard would alternate the spreading out to different spots and load up with good kicking out of the backline. They had Gram and Raph etc to clean up and run in numbers out of defence too.BigMart wrote:Not sure too many have actually stood toe to toe with Sam?
He's a huge unit, a phenomenal looking athlete ... Very similar size to Alex Rance.
Fishers career. He was an Elite defender... I was Putting pay to the rubbish that he's a running HB or ever was...
Because he's played his entire career as a CHB/FB/3rd Tall
In that role has won two B&fs and was an AA CHB... He finished top 5 in our b&f 5 years in a row... Name many other Key Backs who are that
He has of course fallen back from elite to VG in his 33rd and 34th year after missing nearly two full seasons.
Again...
Fisher = Elite Key Defender
Career
Fisher = VG Key Defender
2015/2016
As he winds down his career.
Riewoldt is also not the player he wAs at his peak... But he's still a handy player...
He was never the best when forced to be a purely accountable man on man player and that's why he was considered a "quarterback" along with Goddard. Blake and Zac were our proper FB CHB combo.Like all good players he has had to adapt his game to suit just like Gwilt did when he was forced to become a KPD when he wasn't the right size for it.
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skeptic
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Re: Chips
Very well articulatedgringo wrote:
His best footy though was always when we had him BJ, Dempster, Zac and Blake all down there and he could run across the front and clean up with his marking. Him and goddard would alternate the spreading out to different spots and load up with good kicking out of the backline. They had Gram and Raph etc to clean up and run in numbers out of defence too.
He was never the best when forced to be a purely accountable man on man player and that's why he was considered a "quarterback" along with Goddard. Blake and Zac were our proper FB CHB combo.Like all good players he has had to adapt his game to suit just like Gwilt did when he was forced to become a KPD when he wasn't the right size for it.
Re: Chips
I would have thought that all defenders were accountable to an opponent... In the Ross years
Zac and Blakey played deep under Ross, with Bakes
Raph, Gram and Chips played across HB (chips opposed to the CHF) and would be used as Rebounders when we won the footy. But we're certainly defenders.
Chips would often drop off his man as soon as he realised that's not where the ball was going... He read the play very well
Goddard did often play as a sweeper, dropping behind the ball as a winger.
Zac and Blakey played deep under Ross, with Bakes
Raph, Gram and Chips played across HB (chips opposed to the CHF) and would be used as Rebounders when we won the footy. But we're certainly defenders.
Chips would often drop off his man as soon as he realised that's not where the ball was going... He read the play very well
Goddard did often play as a sweeper, dropping behind the ball as a winger.
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gringo
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Re: Chips
He was more a zone man Ross, he set up an area for guys to cover and set a defensive spread to make teams direct the ball out wide to the wings where the could press them in tight to the boundary and direct them into kicking up to more congestion. You didn't really play man on man so much as who ever was in your part of the zone but all footy has elements of contesting one on one. It's just it was never his strength as much as getting free into space to take a mark with out someone on him or drifting across in front of the pack. Zac and Blake were more accountable for an individual player as they were expected to mind the key forwards.BigMart wrote:I would have thought that all defenders were accountable to an opponent... In the Ross years
Zac and Blakey played deep under Ross, with Bakes
Raph, Gram and Chips played across HB (chips opposed to the CHF) and would be used as Rebounders when we won the footy. But we're certainly defenders.
Chips would often drop off his man as soon as he realised that's not where the ball was going... He read the play very well
Goddard did often play as a sweeper, dropping behind the ball as a winger.
Re: Chips
You don't think Sam Fisher played on an opponent under Ross....
He would beg to differ.... As would Grammy and Raphael.... Back 6 don't zone.... Mids do
He did run off his man, or leave his man to cover... If his man was not on.... He would fold back to the hot spot. Blake would do that as well, as does Dempster.... But starting point is always direct opponent.
He would beg to differ.... As would Grammy and Raphael.... Back 6 don't zone.... Mids do
He did run off his man, or leave his man to cover... If his man was not on.... He would fold back to the hot spot. Blake would do that as well, as does Dempster.... But starting point is always direct opponent.