Saintsational Fan Forum - A passionate community of St Kilda Football Club fans discussing news, history, players, trade rumours, results, AFL stats and more.
To the top wrote:Someone else suggested moving on our veteran players for high draft picks if they can be obtained.
It just is not going to happen because they will not command high draft picks (and I doubt they would be accepting of St Kilda moving them on).
And I entirely agree that form and contribution are the criteria for selection - exclusively.
You do not jettison Dempster and/or Fisher as is suggested by someone (where Fisher and Dempster have both performed very well this season including Dempster with KPP defensive responsibilities which he is not really equipped for - and injuries allowing but they happen) or any others of our (limited) veterans simply to gift a game to a young player citing the future and Dempster and Fisher being in the side as detrimental to that future as the reason.
Games have to be earned by consistent, AFL stand out performances in the VFL and against the leading sides in the VFL.
Dempster and Fisher would not attract a draft pick on the top 100. No other side would offer them a contract. Full stop.
We beat Geelong and Calrton without both Dempster and Fisher. Clearly our two best wins. This is a FACT.
We have Carlisle coming back next year.
The case for keeping Fish next year is that he could basically act as a teaching assistant coach for the tall backs who besides Demps don't have vast experience - Games Carlisle 85 (not all of them in a key back role), Roberton 94 (but hasn't played as key back much), Delaney 62, Goddard 9, Lee only a few as an AFL defender, Coughlan 0. Even if injured for some of the season, Fish has regularly played on the forward gorrllas and would have lots of tricks to teach the guys who have to play on them. Even guys like White and Rice could benefit from Fish's experience working the ball out of the back and setting up.
I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that if I didn't think it would end up like Schneider last year being taken off the rookie list and played in virtually every game (if Fish was fit). So you end up with all of Demps, Fish, Gilbo, Joey, Geary in the backline again without much room for blooding and developing younger players.
I'm worried about this gung-ho attitude to making finals next year. I don't think we have a finals ready backline, even with Carlisle. With both Fish and Demps we are too slow at the back - the Geelong game showed how much more dangerous we looked with some genuine run and carry from the back. But without both Demps and Fish we are relying on guys like Delaney, Lee, Roberton who are still struggling to show they are genuine AFL key defenders.
To my eyes, next year should be another development/experimental/testing-out type of year. I still think we have a long way to go, our backline in particular. If Fish was there to act as a coach and swap playing with Dempster I'd be cool with it. But if both are on the list, then almost certainly both will get played and we are not developing our backline youth the way we need to.
Bluthy wrote:The case for keeping Fish next year is that he could basically act as a teaching assistant coach for the tall backs who besides Demps don't have vast experience - Games Carlisle 85 (not all of them in a key back role), Roberton 94 (but hasn't played as key back much), Delaney 62, Goddard 9, Lee only a few as an AFL defender, Coughlan 0. Even if injured for some of the season, Fish has regularly played on the forward gorrllas and would have lots of tricks to teach the guys who have to play on them. Even guys like White and Rice could benefit from Fish's experience working the ball out of the back and setting up.
I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that if I didn't think it would end up like Schneider last year being taken off the rookie list and played in virtually every game (if Fish was fit). So you end up with all of Demps, Fish, Gilbo, Joey, Geary in the backline again without much room for blooding and developing younger players.
I'm worried about this gung-ho attitude to making finals next year. I don't think we have a finals ready backline, even with Carlisle. With both Fish and Demps we are too slow at the back - the Geelong game showed how much more dangerous we looked with some genuine run and carry from the back. But without both Demps and Fish we are relying on guys like Delaney, Lee, Roberton who are still struggling to show they are genuine AFL key defenders.
To my eyes, next year should be another development/experimental/testing-out type of year. I still think we have a long way to go, our backline in particular. If Fish was there to act as a coach and swap playing with Dempster I'd be cool with it. But if both are on the list, then almost certainly both will get played and we are not developing our backline youth the way we need to.
Why not just hire him as an asst coach and pay him half as much?
Is there any evidence he has an interest in coaching?
Bluthy wrote:The case for keeping Fish next year is that he could basically act as a teaching assistant coach for the tall backs who besides Demps don't have vast experience - Games Carlisle 85 (not all of them in a key back role), Roberton 94 (but hasn't played as key back much), Delaney 62, Goddard 9, Lee only a few as an AFL defender, Coughlan 0. Even if injured for some of the season, Fish has regularly played on the forward gorrllas and would have lots of tricks to teach the guys who have to play on them. Even guys like White and Rice could benefit from Fish's experience working the ball out of the back and setting up.
I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that if I didn't think it would end up like Schneider last year being taken off the rookie list and played in virtually every game (if Fish was fit). So you end up with all of Demps, Fish, Gilbo, Joey, Geary in the backline again without much room for blooding and developing younger players.
I'm worried about this gung-ho attitude to making finals next year. I don't think we have a finals ready backline, even with Carlisle. With both Fish and Demps we are too slow at the back - the Geelong game showed how much more dangerous we looked with some genuine run and carry from the back. But without both Demps and Fish we are relying on guys like Delaney, Lee, Roberton who are still struggling to show they are genuine AFL key defenders.
To my eyes, next year should be another development/experimental/testing-out type of year. I still think we have a long way to go, our backline in particular. If Fish was there to act as a coach and swap playing with Dempster I'd be cool with it. But if both are on the list, then almost certainly both will get played and we are not developing our backline youth the way we need to.
Why not just hire him as an asst coach and pay him half as much?
Is there any evidence he has an interest in coaching?
Because we aren't a well resourced club so we probably have to do some of these creative player/coach things like Schneider last year. He's been a good mentor for Goddard apparently so with Goddard not being able to play could be a good support/teacher for him and guys like Lee and Coughlan who are as green as.
Crazy thread. He's easily our best defender. Delaney was shocking against the Bummers. We really need Carlisle and they should recruit the best fullback from the state leagues.
I have to wonder at why some of our supporters want to retire our serviceable champs early especially when these same supporters want wins over losses when the argument over draft picks come up.
The Fireman wrote:I have to wonder at why some of our supporters want to retire our serviceable champs early especially when these same supporters want wins over losses when the argument over draft picks come up.
1. Our two best wins this year came both without either Dempster and Fisher.
2. You cant help a team win when you are out injured.
3. We have Carlisle to accommodate in 2017.
Do you truly want to see a club legend like Chips hobbling around for Sandy next year? Be careful what you advocate for.
The Fireman wrote:I have to wonder at why some of our supporters want to retire our serviceable champs early especially when these same supporters want wins over losses when the argument over draft picks come up.
1. Our two best wins this year came both without either Dempster and Fisher.
2. You cant help a team win when you are out injured.
3. We have Carlisle to accommodate in 2017.
Do you truly want to see a club legend like Chips hobbling around for Sandy next year? Be careful what you advocate for.
Good to see you recognize who I was alluding to.
As I said "serviceable champs" meaning they can contribute at the highest level, wanting to see them out of the side is tantamount to wanting to see the side lose.
the best wins you speak of could have been so much better with 2 of our best defenders playing in those particular games...you after Picks Con ?
Both Fisher and Dempster are finished. Time to move on. Neither would make another AFL side. Same thing with Gilbert. Get a state league FB and with Carlisle we will be fine. let 2009/10 go and develop for 2018. Do we really need Dempster in the team to teach the kids how to kick the ball out of bounds on the full?
Fisher and Dempster have been great players for us, but really, if an older player near the end of his career is not playing solid effective footy and doing better than a younger player, then he should not be in senior team- form wins games, not sentimentality. Those two guys are nowhere near what they were, and I would play Delaney as much as possible over the two of them right now, and get Murdoch back in the mix in the backline- time to go forward.
spert wrote:Fisher and Dempster have been great players for us, but really, if an older player near the end of his career is not playing solid effective footy and doing better than a younger player, then he should not be in senior team- form wins games, not sentimentality. Those two guys are nowhere near what they were, and I would play Delaney as much as possible over the two of them right now, and get Murdoch back in the mix in the backline- time to go forward.
Exactly..so if they are doing better , they should be in.
