Are we light on for elite talent?

[To the top]

Where you have a defensive set up (7?) including KPP's in Carlisle and Brown (Goddard) then supported by 2 x 194cm, running, rebound defenders in Gilbert and Roberton and where we would expect them to dominate on the match ups because of their physical attributes AND provide third man options because of their height then Montagna (as 7), that leaves 2 places available to a raft of names.

No doubt the competition is on - in earnest.

I do agree that time trials are precisely that - and the measure in match circumstances is the first 2 steps, not endurance because endurance is fitness and ALL should be fit.

So you look at the "explode" factor in assessing - and that is the first 2 steps including their length.

[older saint]

this is where salary cap space, free agency and aggressive trading inc first round picks will come into it after 2917 season to address the issue of lack of top end talent.

Be that Fyfe, Martin, Shiels , Kelly or combination there of

[Spinner]

We have two AFL champions (1 Legend) but they are ageing being 33 & 34. Roo would still be in the top 30 in the league (around 25 possibly) and Joey is still a more than serviceable AFL player.

But that leaves Jack Steven - perhaps top 20-25?

We bat deep, in some areas too deep IMO however, we are very light on for absolute cream. There is excitement, the team is good, well rounded, well prepared and coached... Well much better than recent years anyway. Yes, we should play finals.

I've read a lot of stuff where I think supporters may be thinking more about perceived potential rather than proven ability.
Really, besides the above mentioned we don't have many proven A Graders

Seb stepped up last year, but to be proven he needs to do it again
Membrey, Hickey the same
Armo was stepping up before injury in 14, then did so in 15... But again because of fitness regressed last year
Roberton had had good and average seasons
Mav is making improvements each year, but is not a gun ATM
Newnes a steady burn, but no star yet.
Bruce didn't quite back up 2015 and seems a solid player

We consider
Billings, Paddy, Acres, Gresham, DMac as the potentials to be A Grade but of course they have not got close to achieving that level consistently yet... Have shown promising glimpses, as did Lonie and Sinclair the season before, Dunstan the year before that

I can see all of those players developing at some point but as it stands they haven't achieved much... Statistically The maligned Billings is the best ATM

Carlisle has huge upside, but he was disappointing in 2015 and missed all of 2016, and is not yet training fully for 2017... Yet some are suggesting top 5 B&F and perhaps another AA (which he actually never was, but for some reason gets linked with)
Freeman is further back and not really worth considering at the moment
Steele is also recovering from injury and I think he will start behind the 8 ball

Fact is, besides the relentless Jack Steven
Our proven consistent performers are the ageless Dempster, Riewoldt, Montaga while Geary is consistently very good

We had zero AAs last year, perhaps in 2015 also??

Who is elite?

J. Steven??

Who do we have better than
Sloane, Betts, Beams, Cripps, Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Watson, Heppell, Hurley, Fyfe, Sandilands, Neale, Dangerfield, Selwood, Rioli, Gunston, Lewis, Gawn, Winguard, Gray, Martin, Rance, Kennedy, Parker, Hannebury, Rampe, Franklin, Bont, Libba, Mitchell, Priddis, Kennedy, McGovern, Sheil, Shaw, Green

Where does Steven fit in that list? And of course thre are others I missed or will jump up this year... And can we be successful without more game breakers than Jack

Perhaps Paddy, Acres, Billings, Gresham, DMac will start to consistently deliver or Carlisle, Freeman or Steele will produce??
ATM though ... That is speculative for season 2017

I think before grandiose predictions, we need the first 6 games to find out a few things

Then we'll know if we need a free agent or two and who we nee too offload

This is right on point and agree with every rating of the players mentioned. Some have shown traits but will need to continue.

The elite talent has been my worry but there are always surprises which I need to remind myself. Not all do the Roo, number 1 and then dominate. Some come from no where that I can never predict. Seb's year was fantastic last year, as was Membreys. Membrey and Bruce's breakouts achieved much more than I had expected. The proof will be in maintaining those performances.

More will surprise but the need to established champion talent may be the icing but is always difficult to come by. Champions seldom leave and it's more rare they come to us.

Steven is our only one at the moment (ignoring the champs roo and Montagna). Armitage hasn't done enough over a long enough period. But there is hope as while the elite range of the list is still to be filled out, the above average list is the most plentiful I've seen. Let's remember that a lot of earmarked elites never make it also (injury, development).

And another test case is Montagna. I never had him reaching the highs he has.

[BigMart]

Bluthy,

Didn't rate him highly because he won a time trial (which Jarryn Geary actually won) but because I've watched him play a dozen or more games for Sandy and about the same at StK and I think he has the attributes to become a top liner.

He is 186cm so not short for a mid, has a huge leap, marks the ball extremely well, kicks it with penetration, has ridiculous courage, and is extremely powerful off the mark with breakaway acceleration.

He is a combination of Billings and Wright IMO, will be an awesome winger, and IMO a better player than Acres. Who is a big lad, but lumbers with the footy at times, sometimes a deer in headlights with the ball and often kicks it poorly. Acres thing is that he is big bodied, can find the ball and is strong overhead also.

[Zed]

Yes - we are light on for elite talent. My definition of elite, is a player who is a genuinely in AA contention .. and really that's only Jack Steven - and maybe you could argue a case for Nick Reiwoldt. That's a long way shy of the numbers of AA contenders we had in the mid-late 2000's.

Guys like Hickey and Membrey really did push themselves up to A grade in 2016 (not Elite - but the next level down). Thats the pleasing part. We look like we have the potential to develop more A graders on the list than we have traditionally had in the past - in other words a much more well rounded team.

But to get to the big dance, we are going to need up to 4 elite's - guys that are just better than their competitors who play the same position at the other 17 clubs. So where do we get the additional elites ?

I will be very interested to see what happens at the end of this year. We will lose some class players in the next couple of years and that will impact the quality of our list depth - Reiwoldt, Joey, Dempster, Gilbert are all candidates for retirement. We need to find elite talent either by trading or drafting. Do we use our 2 x first round picks to top up on proven talent whilst we still have Reiwoldt and co available and lots of juniors still developing ?.... Delidio was traded for a 1st and 3rd round pick, Dangerfield for a 1st and 2nd round, Carlisle for a first round pick. Given we have a plethora of developing players already do we want to add another 2 first rounders and have to wait until 2020/21 before they hit their straps ? We seem to have assembled a strong off field team making genuinely good decisions. It will be interesting to see which way they go at year end.

[Linton Lodger]

Its inevitable that a number of players will improve, some won't meet expectations and some will exceed expectations. Our elite talent could be queried at this stage, however what we do have is a really deep list, something we lacked and that cost us in 2009/10.

Big Mart you are a hard task master when it comes to Hickey. I agree that players should be measured on what they have delivered and not on potential, however Hickey's season last year was nothing short of awesome. He handed out a few lessons in ruck work to boot, particularly 2 maulings of Max Gawn. He has Gawn's measure and always will. I will go as far as saying that Hickey will be a monstorous ruckman and our best since Big Carl (Ditterich).

I'm excited about our depth, which is being deliberately built. It shows we've learnt from our most recent near misses, rather than whine about bad luck, and are determined to succeed this time.

Whilst some on here a happy to adore The Bont and lament that we didn't take him, I say get excited about a couple of our young wizards, Billings and Gresham. These two kids can become anything. Then we've got Paddy McCartin, now I haven't seen a player read the play as he does since, dare I say it, the big fella himself Plugger Lockett. Not saying he's going to be as good as Plugger, but he shares that uncanny ability to read the play and the flight of the ball. There is much more to enthuse about when it comes to our list, it has been well constructed and we have a great Coach.

I've got a feeling that the time is coming soon, when the football world will marvel out our elite talent.

[BigMart]

Linton,

Have you forgot we had a dual AA ruckmen/Best and Fairest who played 180 games in the mid to late 90s

Tom has played 50 games at StK, not sure where he finished in the B&F but I think it was 5-10 somewhere, he wasn't in the AA squad of 40. Gawn, Goldstien, Jacobs and Mumford statistically still the best ruckmen in the AFL.

He was a huge improver, when you consider in 2015 he was playing as the #2 ruckman at Sandy and was doing very little. Last year Billy's injury gave him an opportunity and he took it with both hands.

He may well end up A Grade but has to repeat last year to be considered that... As does Ross, Membrey and Gresham... One season does not allow you to rate a player. Roberton, Weller and Bruce need to become consistently good performers.

[st.byron]

Yes - we are light on for elite talent. My definition of elite, is a player who is a genuinely in AA contention .. and really that's only Jack Steven - and maybe you could argue a case for Nick Reiwoldt. That's a long way shy of the numbers of AA contenders we had in the mid-late 2000's.

Guys like Hickey and Membrey really did push themselves up to A grade in 2016 (not Elite - but the next level down). Thats the pleasing part. We look like we have the potential to develop more A graders on the list than we have traditionally had in the past - in other words a much more well rounded team.

But to get to the big dance, we are going to need up to 4 elite's - guys that are just better than their competitors who play the same position at the other 17 clubs. So where do we get the additional elites ?

Don't necessarily agree with this thinking that "not enough elites = no chance". Dogs are a prime example. IMO it's more important to have an even spread of high pressure contributors with good disposal than having to have AA elite players.

[BigMart]

I'd say the dogs have a few site players

They had more AAs than us

[jays]

id say we might have a few more elite players buy the end ok this year some young guys will step up

[fugazi]

Carlisle capable of top 20 ib the league

Gresham and Acres next best chances of elite

Paddy and Goddard will be B-B+ only

We need more elite players

[wally]

I think that the better the side gets then some individuals will step up further.
It makes it hard for opposition to nullify everyone.
If you look at our last failed campaigns we were probably a couple of good players short, upgrade the bottom 2 or 3 and job done.
We need a few guys who can spread the load and be the difference between the sides at different times
not relying on the same 1 or 2 to get the job done.
On paper our depth looks really good with competition for spots but they have to be ready to go straight up

[Bluthy]

The chances of elite for me:

Steven - already there
Billings - x-factor, creative, already racking up 20 possies seemingly easily, hard penetrating kicking, goal kicking ability from long range to beat floods
Gresham - dat shimmy, footy smarts, good disposal, should become a ball magnet if becomes an onballer, goal scoring instinct you can't teach
Armo - could still find that higher gear like in 2015 with outside run link up play if he can get his body right
McCartin - sticky hands, big body shape that makes him a force in packs, smart play reader, pretty good disposal for a big forward, can set up other forwards
White - great kick, regularly hits targets, seems a smart player, tough
Acres - powerful unit but still good at ground level, huge size for a mid making him a marking/fwd threat, tackle breaker, disposal is average but did improve in the second half as he adjusted to the pace of AFL and stopped panicking with it in his hand
Carlisle - huge unit can nullify the biggest of fwds, intercepting marking machine with those long arms and bucket hands, pretty good kick for a big guy, aggressive attitude
Hickey - is an outside chance if he can muscle up a bit to stand his ground a bit more in ruck tussles. Also needs to take marks around the ground and become a genuine forward threat if resting forward. Clever tap work, brilliant at ground level for his size - was like an extra mid last year. Smart player for a big unit.
Membrey - is an outside chance if he can continue his evolution into a really smart, versatile mid-size forward. Being able to play on a wing or even onball would give us more rotation options with guys like Acres, Stevens and Steele able to also play that mid-size forward role.

Haven't seen enough of Steele to know. I've still got some hopes for Sinclair as he is such a smart, creative, good user of the footy that we need but needs to show he can be a force in the midfield. Haven't seen enough of the other youngsters to guess.

[To the top]

IF Acres disposal is average (and I do not view it as so) what about Geary?

That aside, look at Brownlow votes where we improved significantly in 2016.

Hopefully we go to another level in 2017.

I always maintained that you required players who could poll the 3 Votes in any given game.

So they could influence the result of any game

"Could he take a game by the scruff of the neck and deliver victory by attitude and performance, dragging the side with him?"

Look at those who stood up in 2016 to the extent that they received Brownlow votes, and start from there.

[skeptic]

I think before grandiose predictions, we need the first 6 games to find out a few things

Then we'll know if we need a free agent or two and who we nee too offload

Well it's kind of pointless making a prediction after the fact

If you want to give $500, I will accurately tell you how we do in 2017 at the end of October...

Don't think a lot of ppl will go for that

[skeptic]

I think before grandiose predictions, we need the first 6 games to find out a few things

Then we'll know if we need a free agent or two and who we nee too offload

Well it's kind of pointless making a prediction after the fact

If you want to give $500, I will accurately tell you how we do in 2017 at the end of October...

Don't think a lot of ppl will go for that

[The Fireman]

Are Footscray light on for elite talent ?

[Bluthy]

Are Footscray light on for elite talent ?

Bont was rated 5 best midfielder. Bont, Dalhous and WAllis are all rated elite. Steven not in the top 10 despite how high we rate him. Perhaps show why we need to land a flagship onballer.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/patrick ... 4cbe6066df

Murphy I think was in the top 10 defenders. I think Joey was in that as well which might surprise people but they rate high the ability to use the footy well. Boyd would have to be pushing up as a big forward.

This is the sort of year we should see the emergence of some genuine consistent play from our younger group. We've got a lot hitting that 3-4 year, 50-75 game mark. If we don't have any of them show some high level game after his year then we can start to panic a bit.

[magnifisaint]

Are Footscray light on for elite talent ?

Bont was rated 5 best midfielder. Bont, Dalhous and WAllis are all rated elite. Steven not in the top 10 despite how high we rate him. Perhaps show why we need to land a flagship onballer.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/patrick ... 4cbe6066df

Murphy I think was in the top 10 defenders. I think Joey was in that as well which might surprise people but they rate high the ability to use the footy well. Boyd would have to be pushing up as a big forward.

This is the sort of year we should see the emergence of some genuine consistent play from our younger group. We've got a lot hitting that 3-4 year, 50-75 game mark. If we don't have any of them show some high level game after his year then we can start to panic a bit.

Dalhous and Wallis better than Steven?

Now that's a joke. In this context these arguments don't mean much. Only wins do.

[Bluthy]

Dalhous and Wallis better than Steven?

Now that's a joke. In this context these arguments don't mean much. Only wins do.

They're not rated higher - Steven is elite I think. But he's not in the top 10 like Bont. Its a formula that spits out names you either agree with or not. I think they put a pretty high rating on contested ball winning which was a doggies strength all over the ground. Any time a team got a run on, dogs were able to tie it up and kill momentum. Very much that Clarkson "shark net" approach - they need to move to survive, so kill their movement and they will start to thrash around desperately and come apart.

I think its something we need to get better at - we got swamped by teams sometimes last year and couldn't stop the momentum. K Stevens was brought in for this reason - his contested ball is very good. Acres could be a genuine inside monster and outside powerhouse. Steele has great potential. Dunstan needs to add some outside game and more running. Steven wins his share of contested ball but with his size he's never going to be a huge force inside making space, blocking etc.

[Con Gorozidis]

The fact we finished:
16th
18th
14h
9th

pretty much proves we are light on for elite talent.
BUT
We are on the up and we have lots of young talent who are genuine chances to become elite.

[dragit]

Are Footscray light on for elite talent ?

Bont was rated 5 best midfielder. Bont, Dalhous and WAllis are all rated elite. Steven not in the top 10 despite how high we rate him. Perhaps show why we need to land a flagship onballer.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/patrick ... 4cbe6066df

Murphy I think was in the top 10 defenders. I think Joey was in that as well which might surprise people but they rate high the ability to use the footy well. Boyd would have to be pushing up as a big forward.

This is the sort of year we should see the emergence of some genuine consistent play from our younger group. We've got a lot hitting that 3-4 year, 50-75 game mark. If we don't have any of them show some high level game after his year then we can start to panic a bit.

It really is hard to take those ratings seriously…

Bontempelli rated the 5th best midfielder when he's
not in the top 50 for disposals P/M
not in the top 30 for contested pos P/M
not in the top 80 for tackles P/M
50th for clearances P/M
not in the top 60 for goal assists
not in the top 25 for inside 50s
46th for AFL fantasy points per match

There must be a whole lot of weight put on some obscure stats to catapult him to 5th best mid in the comp.

Smells like an "AFL determined formula" to me…

[BigMart]

What about the intangible stat

Marketability

[Wayne42]

this is where salary cap space, free agency and aggressive trading inc first round picks will come into it after 2917 season to address the issue of lack of top end talent.

Be that Fyfe, Martin, Shiels , Kelly or combination there of

I won't be around to see the 2917 season, i do hope we have more than one flag by then.

[saynta]

Are Footscray light on for elite talent ?

Bont was rated 5 best midfielder. Bont, Dalhous and WAllis are all rated elite. Steven not in the top 10 despite how high we rate him. Perhaps show why we need to land a flagship onballer.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/patrick ... 4cbe6066df

Murphy I think was in the top 10 defenders. I think Joey was in that as well which might surprise people but they rate high the ability to use the footy well. Boyd would have to be pushing up as a big forward.

This is the sort of year we should see the emergence of some genuine consistent play from our younger group. We've got a lot hitting that 3-4 year, 50-75 game mark. If we don't have any of them show some high level game after his year then we can start to panic a bit.

Dalhous and Wallis better than Steven?

Now that's a joke. In this context these arguments don't mean much. Only wins do.

Gotta agree with you there.

Anyway Seb Ross is a far better player than either Wallis or the rug rat.

And Jack is better than Seb.