Where is the leadership?

[samuraisaint]

Why wasn't Marshall picked this week to give Hickey a chop out against McEvoy?
Why was Clark dropped after only one game?

Not only are we losing, but we are really losing ugly. It is absolutely impossible to win over new prospective supporters playing this garbage.

We have played sides which are very undermanned at the moment and we let them off through shocking conversion. 7 behinds before we kick our first goal in the second quarter and then we are chasing our opponent all match.

Our goals, if they come, are ad hoc at best and our better players are going backwards.

When is someone from the club, such as the president going to come out and explain what the strategy for our club is?

I can handle losing if we are at least playing good footy, but at the moment the forward line is absolutely dysfunctional, the midfield are badly butchering the ball, especially by foot, and our coach refuses to do what I think is the sensible thing and playing a second ruckman.

If it is a development thing, then why are we playing veterans? I'm sorry but I don't see one positive out of tonight. I will always go to watch the Saints, but the coaches need to have a real hard look at what they are doing, and the selection committee need to explain to us, the members, regarding some of their selections, are baffling, and because watching games at the moment is very hard to take, to be honest.

When you are on TV on a Saturday night you need to play at least an attractive, competent brand of footy or you risk turning people off.

I think that some of the players who have played every match so far, and who are struggling need to be dropped to try to regain confidence and every player on that list needs extensive skills training. Some of those goals missed tonight were absolutely deflating for supporters, what must it be like for the players in this team at the moment?

We've put up with a lot since 2013 and been very patient, but losing to teams like Hawthorn badly, and getting thrashed by Geelong, when they both played inexperienced teams themselves is an affront to many of the members.

[SaintPav]

Our President?

Forgotten his name. Winters is it?

He’s worse than the other moron we had. Forgot his name too.

Right!

[Con Gorozidis]

Geary is so ordinary.

[stonecold]

Geary is so ordinary.

How so Con?????

[samuraisaint]

I said at the beginning of the year that we are still playing the same way we did in 2015. The constant poor conversion. The continuing inability to stem the bleeding when our opposition gets a few goals in a row, and our inability to switch play.
Obviously there has been very little in the way of skills training over the summer, and for a side which badly needed to address innaccuracy in front of goal, we are way worse than last season, despite gaining a supposedly high profile goalkicking specialist.
I am very worried for the club because apart from diehards like people on this forum, who in their right mind is going to waste time and money to go and watch this?
After last week I said that this game was important as we needed a win to consolidate the small step we took last week, but guess what; the game was lost at the selection table when a back up ruckman wasn't selected to play, we started with Acres and Dunstan on the bench, and there was no strategy to negate Tom Mitchell. Hawthorn had a lot of players out tonight and we played right into their hands. Not good enough.
I don't want a scapegoat but I do want someone in a position of leadership at the club to explain to the members what is going on, because a lot of our players are going backwards at 110 miles per hour and I would like to know why, and judging by the external noise, I'm not alone.

[mad saint guy]

On the topic of leadership, it seems like the coaches are trying to force Geary to play a more prominent role as captain instead of doing what he's good at. Geary is one of the top few lock down small defenders in the league and can shut out elite small forwards regularly, but he is being freed up and pushed up the ground more this year and that is costing us as a team. Yes he's getting more of the footy but he isn't who we need distributing off half back and small forwards are getting off the leash. Breust barely had anyone lay a hand on him all night on his way to 4 marks inside 50, 5 scoring shots and 9 score involvements. Dumb coaching

[St. Paul]

On the topic of leadership, it seems like the coaches are trying to force Geary to play a more prominent role as captain instead of doing what he's good at. Geary is one of the top few lock down small defenders in the league and can shut out elite small forwards regularly, but he is being freed up and pushed up the ground more this year and that is costing us as a team. Yes he's getting more of the footy but he isn't who we need distributing off half back and small forwards are getting off the leash. Breust barely had anyone lay a hand on him all night on his way to 4 marks inside 50, 5 scoring shots and 9 score involvements. Dumb coaching

Spot on, msg. Geary is a player of very limited ability, but who can perform a role. There is only one role he can play, and he should be left to do it, as we have no one better to do it at this stage. A captain should be able to inspire his players through his effort and playing ability. Unfortunately, Gears can do the former, but not the latter.

[Con Gorozidis]

Geary is so ordinary.

How so Con?????

When compared to the other 17 captains in the AFL he is easily the worst player.
I was at the game tonight and watched him closely.
I also watch a player like Isaac Smith who was way too good for us.
All elements of the game we are below average.
Leadership is just one area.

[stonecold]

Geary is so ordinary.

How so Con?????

When compared to the other 17 captains in the AFL he is easily the worst player.
I was at the game tonight and watched him closely.
I also watch a player like Isaac Smith who was way too good for us.
All elements of the game we are below average.
Leadership is just one area.

Fair enough, thanks for answering the question then, what about the other one?????

[skeptic]

I think it’s pretty clear that as a club, we’re lacking on field leaders (not to mention others)...

[samuraisaint]

I was referring to the leadership of our system. The products of our system, the players, seem to have stalled in their development. This is what needs to be addressed.
I really want us to get our own reserves/VFL team, to be honest.

[The_Dud]

Geary is so ordinary.

How so Con?????

When compared to the other 17 captains in the AFL he is easily the worst player.
I was at the game tonight and watched him closely.
I also watch a player like Isaac Smith who was way too good for us.
All elements of the game we are below average.
Leadership is just one area.

Totally agree. I can’t think of a worse (football ability) captain I’ve seen of a side ever. I can’t help but think our overall drop in all round skills the last year and a half has something to do with him as our on field leader.

Even their first gamer had no problem brushing off a tackle from him, quite deflating...

[stonecold]

Geary is so ordinary.

How so Con?????

When compared to the other 17 captains in the AFL he is easily the worst player.
I was at the game tonight and watched him closely.
I also watch a player like Isaac Smith who was way too good for us.
All elements of the game we are below average.
Leadership is just one area.

Totally agree. I can’t think of a worse (football ability) captain I’ve seen of a side ever. I can’t help but think our overall drop in all round skills the last year and a half has something to do with him as our on field leader.

Even their first gamer had no problem brushing off a tackle from him, quite deflating...

Nick Maxwell!!!!!

[The_Dud]

Geary is so ordinary.

How so Con?????

When compared to the other 17 captains in the AFL he is easily the worst player.
I was at the game tonight and watched him closely.
I also watch a player like Isaac Smith who was way too good for us.
All elements of the game we are below average.
Leadership is just one area.

Totally agree. I can’t think of a worse (football ability) captain I’ve seen of a side ever. I can’t help but think our overall drop in all round skills the last year and a half has something to do with him as our on field leader.

Even their first gamer had no problem brushing off a tackle from him, quite deflating...

Nick Maxwell!!!!!

Nick Maxwell wasn’t great, but still miles ahead of Geary.

[stonecold]

Geary is so ordinary.

How so Con?????

When compared to the other 17 captains in the AFL he is easily the worst player.
I was at the game tonight and watched him closely.
I also watch a player like Isaac Smith who was way too good for us.
All elements of the game we are below average.
Leadership is just one area.

Totally agree. I can’t think of a worse (football ability) captain I’ve seen of a side ever. I can’t help but think our overall drop in all round skills the last year and a half has something to do with him as our on field leader.

Even their first gamer had no problem brushing off a tackle from him, quite deflating...

Nick Maxwell!!!!!

Nick Maxwell wasn’t great, but still miles ahead of Geary.

Disagree, but that's OK!!!!!

Each to their own!!!!!

[Newman]

Still think Nick Riewoldt was stupid not to captain in his final year. Should have been AFL's 'longest serving captain' ! Geary could have taken over in 2018 ... or someone else?

[Scollop]

I was referring to the leadership of our system. The products of our system, the players, seem to have stalled in their development. This is what needs to be addressed.
I really want us to get our own reserves/VFL team, to be honest.

+1

How did the team go with Nick Riewoldt the last 5 years?

Don't blame Gears or any other player/players for our woes at the moment. It all boils down to poor leadership of the team from coaches, the footy department and the admin of the club imo

It's not just one or two players or one incredibly talented super human captain that is going to make a difference. Seriously, why do people look for a scapegoat all the time? It's human nature I suppose, but please don't succumb to the simpletons answer to everything

[Scollop]

Still think Nick Riewoldt was stupid not to captain in his final year. Should have been AFL's 'longest serving captain' ! Geary could have taken over in 2018 ... or someone else?

How do you teach leadership unless you have on field leaders learning to captain? How do you give opportunities to youth if they don't play in the seniors?

If St Kilda football club admin and coaches had any balls they would have asked Chips and Gilbo and Roo and Joey to hang up their boots 3 years ago.

North Melbourne hung on to their old footballers because they were contending. Brent Harvey missed out on another year of football in 2017. North Melbourne also chopped Drew Petrie, Dal Santo and they all could have easily played on. If you asked North supporters at the time if it was the right decision, most would have said it was wrong!! If you ask those same people now, the overwhelming majority imo would tell you it was the right decision.

Same with Hawthorn!! Clarko had the balls to release Sam Mitchell, and to ask other senior players to hang up their boots (including Hodge ) because it was the best thing for the club. Same with Geelong. I saw many of their players asked to retire ( some did so voluntarily including their captains like Harley and Ling ) so that the youth got opportunities. Stevie J and others might have thought they were good enough, but the reality is that Geelong have continued to play finals and stayed relavant because the club is bigger than the player.

[kalsaint]

I think it’s pretty clear that as a club, we’re lacking on field leaders (not to mention others)...

My rant on Facebook follows. While Leadership on the ground isn't everything, its a major impact on how the team performs.


Great pressure Saints for the first three quarters. Conversion is a problem but to me, decision making and poor execution of foot skills is worse. This makes the opposition look good when you put in the effort to retrieve the ball only to butcher it immediately by passing the ball directly to your opposition. This often enabled the Hawks to be clear from the team pressure and often provided an open field to goal.

Saints didn’t take their opportunities. Hawks did in the last quarter. They too had their own concerns with kicking earlier in the match. Certain players in this Saints team caused 3-4 turnovers just in the last quarter from kicking out from the defensive end to the midfield. Hawks scored at around 70% of these. That’s just plain bad decision making. When deep in defence a kick should not be on offer unless the kicker receives a direction from a team mate, particularly a leader. The fact that this happened so much is an indictment on the ground leaders. That’s the sort of stuff that needs correction immediately, not letting repeats occur with goals resulting against the team. Leadership team, get in their ear about this in future.

What should happen is a handball. Why? The first reason is the call will be closer to the player disposing the ball. It should therefore be a clear audible, message and decision. Its the basic talk needed on the ground.
Secondly, it gives the team a chance to hit an outside player and for players to move forward. We run out of options forward too easily. This would not allow Hawks the simple marks taken because they had greater midfield numbers. They returned the ball with pleasure for a score using the provided open defence. This clearly is a leadership problem on the ground for the Saints. Not good enough guys, it’s better to get caught in the tackle rather than open up the field for the opposition.
It also gives the team time to defend. That may look ugly but is more resilient than the current bomb a kick. You can’t give 20 metres of space to the opposition and expect the team to be able to defend that well. Clarity is required from the Leadership team.

This method had me thinking of the team 2 years ago. Two years ago Armo was roasted by Roo in a game for not kicking to him. Roo had led to the pocket and when Roo questioned Armo, he said that was the wrong option. I reckon Armo was correct and Roo wrong at that time. Armo did get tackled over the boundary line but the team were able to regroup and defend from the throw in. If we had went to Roo, it relied on him marking and kicking accurately (not his best form from deep pockets) or simply lose the ball crumbing as small forwards weren’t generally able to keep up with him on long leads. It would mean a turnover in a position where opposition teams could easily rebound and it is easily defended. Good decision Armo IMO.

We are missing this sort of decision making now at times and we should be reviewing these sorts of decisions after the game but at least don't let repeats occur that potentially compromises the scoreboard. It’s called accountability. It is required to stop multiple goals scored against you, like happened today in the last quarter. It’s required to ensure the team have the chance to kick when clear to a mismatch in our favour before the ground is closed down. This and player protection enables quick ball movement. Quick ball movement has been proven to increase scoreboard pressure. This reinforces the effort of the team to keep working hard. Turn it over and you risk a weakened team effort and low game score.

We haven’t scored more than 60 points in any game this year. We need an adjustment along with the recently revised forward structure. Paddy is coming good. Let’s not blow that great opportunity with him. Small forwards must get front and centre at marking contests. Today you let the opposition flog you on this and they scored freely in the fourth qtr to demonstrate what could happen with more disciplined work from small forwards. Look at the past work of players like Milne and Schneider or Adelaide this year. They have a good system working. I would be giving this message to you and expect change. Too many lost opportunities occur because you blokes aren’t positioned correctly, often not near the contest. You are not the midfielders. Its your role to take the opportunities provided from this and it makes the team more diverse in scoring, less predictable and often opens up mistakes from panicking defences so you might get a free in front of goal at times rather than cough it up and then give away a free to the opposition.

[elizabethr]

Armo the giant Scapegoat amongst this shabby crew of losers.

[perfectionist]

The captain doesn't have to be the best player in the team, but he does have to be a quality player. Jarryn Geary wouldn't get a game with any other club. We all admire his fearlessness at the contest, but it's not enough.

The disappointing thing about the game last night is that during the third quarter we were playing all over them. We could easily have taken the lead and been two or three goals up at three quarter time. Basic errors and some weak efforts on behalf of a few players cost us that lead.

I'll explain what I mean by weak effort. Last night I saw numerous players watch Hawthorn players get the ball and think to themselves, "Oh well, he's got and is 5 metres in front of me so there's no point in my chasing him" and they didn't. The Hawthorn player was then under no pressure from chaser when he disposed of it.

Now, I'll retell a story from 21 years ago. We were playing Sydney in Sydney and 4 goals behind in the last quarter. Paul Kelly got the ball on the outer wing and was ten metres or more in front of Andrew Thompson. Kelly raced around the wing into the 50 metre arc to about 25 metres out. BUT. Andrew Thompson chased HARD all the way and gained ground. He was never going to catch him but Kelly knew he was there. Kelly also knew that if he slowed to steady, then he might be caught. Kelly shot at full pace - and missed badly. It was 1997 and as those who can remember will know, we went on to record a famous victory that day, part of 9 in a row which unfortunately we couldn't make 10.

[saintspremiers]

Still think Nick Riewoldt was stupid not to captain in his final year. Should have been AFL's 'longest serving captain' ! Geary could have taken over in 2018 ... or someone else?

How do you teach leadership unless you have on field leaders learning to captain? How do you give opportunities to youth if they don't play in the seniors?

If St Kilda football club admin and coaches had any balls they would have asked Chips and Gilbo and Roo and Joey to hang up their boots 3 years ago.

North Melbourne hung on to their old footballers because they were contending. Brent Harvey missed out on another year of football in 2017. North Melbourne also chopped Drew Petrie, Dal Santo and they all could have easily played on. If you asked North supporters at the time if it was the right decision, most would have said it was wrong!! If you ask those same people now, the overwhelming majority imo would tell you it was the right decision.

Same with Hawthorn!! Clarko had the balls to release Sam Mitchell, and to ask other senior players to hang up their boots (including Hodge ) because it was the best thing for the club. Same with Geelong. I saw many of their players asked to retire ( some did so voluntarily including their captains like Harley and Ling ) so that the youth got opportunities. Stevie J and others might have thought they were good enough, but the reality is that Geelong have continued to play finals and stayed relavant because the club is bigger than the player.

Please don’t compare us to clubs who can both recruit the right players that are capable of playing AFL AND just as relevant develop them properly.

[Stephen Theodore]

Geary is so ordinary.

Don't disagree with that, but who's the real alternative Con?

[samuraisaint]

I just can't see how high draft picks, experienced players, and veterans all get schooled by guys who are teenagers or who have played less than ten games in some circumstances. Like the Geelong game - 8 players with under ten games, 12 with under 30 or something - it just seems like players come in to the Hawthorn team and play like they were always there, and our high draft picks show a little promise but develop enormous deficiencies in their games. Deficiencies which are not being addressed. It's like how we have players who can't kick for their whole careers, and it's just sort of accepted. It all seems a bit semi-professional. This is what I mean by our system.

I saw things in the Geelong game that worried me, it was like we were playing Geelong when they were winning flags so we accepted defeat before we went out on the ground, and that was definitely on display again last night. Both first quarters were unacceptable, and those players rushing kicks, allowing guys with 5 games experience to school them, or not standing the mark properly need to work their way back into senior selection through the reserves, and guys like Marshall, Battle and Phillips need to come in, and need to get a solid month of games before being dropped. This is what I mean when I talk about development.

The lack of mental preparation before games is obvious. Constantly turning the ball over and kicking straight to the opposition at the beginning of games, missing absolute gimmees and starting games with the wrong players on the bench deflate the team and rob us of any possible momentum.

Unfortunately, it looks like, and I am pretty sure I'm not alone here, that there has been zero emphasis on skills over the summer, and a catstrophic approach to improving the players' goalkicking. In fact they've managed to do something I would have thought impossible before the season began, they've made it worse!

It's not the 70s or 80s anymore, people aren't going to rock up every week and watch the Saints get thrashed by ten goals at Moorabbin anymore. I will and there are others like me, probably like most of the posters on here, but times have changed and people are going to give the footy a miss if the standard of our games doesn't improve.

Over to you Richo.

[David-Lee]

Geary is so ordinary.

How so Con?????

I can tell you how so....he is the f@cking team captain.

Get a pair of balls and get in players faces and tell them if they don't put in 100% gutt running, pack smashing, fierce tackling effort then feck off!

He is not leading, unless it's to mediocrity. A leader has followers, so who is replicating Geary?

He's a great bloke no doubt but he is not a leader and his ball disposal at crucial points in the match is sh!te.

Even Richo said our backline is in trouble....the defenders are playing just as crap as the mids and forwards....Carlisle is off, Brown is a plodder, the rest have flares of tagging, marking and rebounding but its diluted idiocracy.

When was the last time we had a captain who main characteristic was being a nice lad?
His stats in defense aren't in the top 100 in ANY category.

He ranks overall outside the 100 I think in 165th?

Pure legend for sure....maybe he is a leader...he is a nice guy who is very average and we have a team of nice guys who are very average.....I TAKE IT ALL BACK...GEARY IS A LEADER.