Saints v Demons - Round 7

[bigred]

I hope Paddy has a day out and kicks six.

But I don't think that will happen since we cant even kick to a lead.

[Wombat15]

Id be trying to stretch that melbourne defence but bringing in Marshall, Battle, Armo and dropping Billings, Weller and Gresh. Get some blokes who are going to have a crack in the side. Show some guts at selection for once! Allow battle and membrey to play up the ground and marshall to pinch hit. allows our forward line to have more versatility rather than kick it to a double teamed paddy.

[tony74]

O.K. This will cause a barrage of criticism but it’s the fact. Nothing wrong with the coaches, nothing wrong with the game plan, nothing wrong with team selection. What is fundamentally wrong is the skill level and confidence. It’s deplorable. Absolutely deplorable. And they all know it.

Hi tony, could you elaborate a little more on that please?

Are you saying that the skill level is down, largely because confidence is down? Or, are you saying that the skill level of (too many of) the players is low? (Deplorable even?)

If the latter, what is the realistic assessment amongst the coaching staff as to how much improvement is possible? And is/will the game plan have to be adjusted to take into account said skill level issues? Ta.

It is quite difficult to answer this as publicly I don’t want to belittle anyone. You don’t lose your skill, you can however lose confidence. Collectively our players were never in the higher percentage of skilled players in the AFL however we could not afford for them to lose 1% of their skill output. Unfortunately, and I credit it to confidence, the players have lost a lot more than that. Billings is a perfect example. All, I repeat,all clubs had Jack in the top ten of the draft. It wasn’t due to his power marking or his incredible defensive skills. It was his ability to pinpoint targets by foot. Right now he’s as far away as he could be.
Collectively the coaches ( I believe ) are doing everything they can possibly do to correct this. In all my years at the club the pre season and current training regime has never had more shots at goal. Go figure?
Changes coaches is fraught with danger. I have my personal view who is the best ( and more importantly available ) one out there but I won’t publicly name him. Personally I think Richo and Gears are doing an acceptable job but they are pretty similar in personality and I’m sure it wouldn’t hurt to have different emotive outputs every now and then. The game plan is basically the same as all teams. I means it’s not rocket science, you just have to have the skills and confidence to do it.
I will reinforce what I’ve said before and I’m sure I’ll get hounded down again. We’re just a win or two from gaining that intangible spark called self belief. The draw strangely enough probably had the reverse effect. Nail a few early goals, scrap out a win and we’re on our way.
Let the negative nellies reply.......

[stonecold]

O.K. This will cause a barrage of criticism but it’s the fact. Nothing wrong with the coaches, nothing wrong with the game plan, nothing wrong with team selection. What is fundamentally wrong is the skill level and confidence. It’s deplorable. Absolutely deplorable. And they all know it.

Hi tony, could you elaborate a little more on that please?

Are you saying that the skill level is down, largely because confidence is down? Or, are you saying that the skill level of (too many of) the players is low? (Deplorable even?)

If the latter, what is the realistic assessment amongst the coaching staff as to how much improvement is possible? And is/will the game plan have to be adjusted to take into account said skill level issues? Ta.

It is quite difficult to answer this as publicly I don’t want to belittle anyone. You don’t lose your skill, you can however lose confidence. Collectively our players were never in the higher percentage of skilled players in the AFL however we could not afford for them to lose 1% of their skill output. Unfortunately, and I credit it to confidence, the players have lost a lot more than that. Billings is a perfect example. All, I repeat,all clubs had Jack in the top ten of the draft. It wasn’t due to his power marking or his incredible defensive skills. It was his ability to pinpoint targets by foot. Right now he’s as far away as he could be.
Collectively the coaches ( I believe ) are doing everything they can possibly do to correct this. In all my years at the club the pre season and current training regime has never had more shots at goal. Go figure?
Changes coaches is fraught with danger. I have my personal view who is the best ( and more importantly available ) one out there but I won’t publicly name him. Personally I think Richo and Gears are doing an acceptable job but they are pretty similar in personality and I’m sure it wouldn’t hurt to have different emotive outputs every now and then. The game plan is basically the same as all teams. I means it’s not rocket science, you just have to have the skills and confidence to do it.
I will reinforce what I’ve said before and I’m sure I’ll get hounded down again. We’re just a win or two from gaining that intangible spark called self belief. The draw strangely enough probably had the reverse effect. Nail a few early goals, scrap out a win and we’re on our way.
Let the negative nellies reply.......

Thanks BigTony, keep posting!!!!!

[samuraisaint]

The funny things is; this week's game traditionally is exactly the type of game we suddenly find our mojo in and win.

[axcellence]

O.K. This will cause a barrage of criticism but it’s the fact. Nothing wrong with the coaches, nothing wrong with the game plan, nothing wrong with team selection. What is fundamentally wrong is the skill level and confidence. It’s deplorable. Absolutely deplorable. And they all know it.

Hi tony, could you elaborate a little more on that please?

Are you saying that the skill level is down, largely because confidence is down? Or, are you saying that the skill level of (too many of) the players is low? (Deplorable even?)

If the latter, what is the realistic assessment amongst the coaching staff as to how much improvement is possible? And is/will the game plan have to be adjusted to take into account said skill level issues? Ta.

It is quite difficult to answer this as publicly I don’t want to belittle anyone. You don’t lose your skill, you can however lose confidence. Collectively our players were never in the higher percentage of skilled players in the AFL however we could not afford for them to lose 1% of their skill output. Unfortunately, and I credit it to confidence, the players have lost a lot more than that. Billings is a perfect example. All, I repeat,all clubs had Jack in the top ten of the draft. It wasn’t due to his power marking or his incredible defensive skills. It was his ability to pinpoint targets by foot. Right now he’s as far away as he could be.
Collectively the coaches ( I believe ) are doing everything they can possibly do to correct this. In all my years at the club the pre season and current training regime has never had more shots at goal. Go figure?
Changes coaches is fraught with danger. I have my personal view who is the best ( and more importantly available ) one out there but I won’t publicly name him. Personally I think Richo and Gears are doing an acceptable job but they are pretty similar in personality and I’m sure it wouldn’t hurt to have different emotive outputs every now and then. The game plan is basically the same as all teams. I means it’s not rocket science, you just have to have the skills and confidence to do it.
I will reinforce what I’ve said before and I’m sure I’ll get hounded down again. We’re just a win or two from gaining that intangible spark called self belief. The draw strangely enough probably had the reverse effect. Nail a few early goals, scrap out a win and we’re on our way.
Let the negative nellies reply.......

I think coaching impact is overrated in part. When a team loses great players to injuries, suspension or retirement, even the best coaches don't matter. Clarkson and Hawthorn had a lot of player injuries last year, and they dropped out. Lyon was a genius with Roo/Kosi and then a ripe Freo team. Not so much when Freo lost key players to retirement (Pav). The coach’s biggest impact is in the list management even though the coaches aren't the day to day list managers.

Whenever St Kilda had 2 high quality forwards for a full season, they made the finals in the 2000s.
Riewoldt, Gehrig (2007 Gehrig was finished, Lyon's first year, etc.)
Riewoldt, Kosi (2009 & 10). Kosi finished after that...

Last few years, Riewoldt carried St Kilda like Neitz carried Melbourne, except Riewoldt was a greater player.

The list management team and the coaches are missing something major if they thought that they can replace Riewoldt and Montagna with the two first year players in Clark and Coffield (or the other assorted 23-25 players).

Confidence, skill and results are like the chicken and the egg paradox. One team can get a fluky win and thus gain confidence to skillfully execute under pressure.

But leaving all that aside, St Kilda has a 0 forward line and no line breaking half backs like Aussie Jones / Gram. These are the players who make teams get a win. A good defensive midfield and an intercepting backline will stop the opposition, but there just isn't enough the type of players that make a team win a game.

So, the big folly of the management and the coaches was their inability to champion the need for an elite mid and an elite forward to replace Riewoldt and Montagna. Richo could very well have said, "we ain't gonna make finals with such a young forward line and no linebreaking half backs". He had the 3 year contract in the bank - so he could have challenged the list management. But he didn't or atleast not strongly enough to make a change of direction. For that, he's complicit in this all around failure.

And this team will not gain any confidence. They are on a hiding to nothing. St Kilda just doesn't have the right players in 2018 and so the season is stuffed. Without good forwards, they have struggled to kick 50 points and will continue to struggle so for the rest of the year.

Just sign the good players, e.g. Billings / Gresham in a long term contract and reload with forwards and a good half back, a la Wilson at the end of 2018.

[MC Gusto]

Thanks Tone

People shouldn’t have a go at you for sharing this perspective. In the end that’s what it is and it is appreciated.

God things are bleak at the moment. Just when we were expecting to the see the light at the end of the tunnel it couldn’t be further away

We really need a game where we score 5-6 goals (and a couple of behinds) in the first qtr. that’ll do us a world of good..Imagine if billings had hit that first snap in the first 30 seconds of the hawks game (or whenever it was) the game then takes a completely different trajectory

We are just at an all time low in confidence and unfortunately sometimes the only way to turn that around is by chopping off rot...starting with the head

[St. Paul]

To quote the great Charles Montgomery Burns, "That post was excellent, axcellence!"

[Turbo]

We need some hard bodied ball getters. Some of our players are too soft and easily pushed off the ball.
Bring in some players that will ht bodies and stand their ground in a contested situation. No more guys that go to ground when bunped. And for goodness sake put on the correct boots, how many guys have slipped over when going for the ball in the last couple off weeks, this cost us the game against GWS! Let's get professional! No more she'll be ok. Gett the small things right and everything else will fall into place.

[bigred]

I want Tony to keep posting, so there is no way known I would bag him out for having his say.

This was always going to be a transition year. Always. However the sheer leadership black hole was underestimated by all.

Our field kicking is a disgrace. This is not a confidence thing, it is a basic skill issue that pretty much highlights that most of our players are 50/50 by foot. Pretty much 50/50 at best. This is before you take bad decision makers or situational fatigue becomes a factor.

The lack of confidence thing... For thirty weeks? Really?

The 200 shots at goal, three times a week? I just cannot stop myself from calling bulls***.

I'm questioning whether or not this is "form slump" at all.

[Moods]

O.K. This will cause a barrage of criticism but it’s the fact. Nothing wrong with the coaches, nothing wrong with the game plan, nothing wrong with team selection. What is fundamentally wrong is the skill level and confidence. It’s deplorable. Absolutely deplorable. And they all know it.

Hi tony, could you elaborate a little more on that please?

Are you saying that the skill level is down, largely because confidence is down? Or, are you saying that the skill level of (too many of) the players is low? (Deplorable even?)

If the latter, what is the realistic assessment amongst the coaching staff as to how much improvement is possible? And is/will the game plan have to be adjusted to take into account said skill level issues? Ta.

It is quite difficult to answer this as publicly I don’t want to belittle anyone. You don’t lose your skill, you can however lose confidence. Collectively our players were never in the higher percentage of skilled players in the AFL however we could not afford for them to lose 1% of their skill output. Unfortunately, and I credit it to confidence, the players have lost a lot more than that. Billings is a perfect example. All, I repeat,all clubs had Jack in the top ten of the draft. It wasn’t due to his power marking or his incredible defensive skills. It was his ability to pinpoint targets by foot. Right now he’s as far away as he could be.
Collectively the coaches ( I believe ) are doing everything they can possibly do to correct this. In all my years at the club the pre season and current training regime has never had more shots at goal. Go figure?
Changes coaches is fraught with danger. I have my personal view who is the best ( and more importantly available ) one out there but I won’t publicly name him. Personally I think Richo and Gears are doing an acceptable job but they are pretty similar in personality and I’m sure it wouldn’t hurt to have different emotive outputs every now and then. The game plan is basically the same as all teams. I means it’s not rocket science, you just have to have the skills and confidence to do it.
I will reinforce what I’ve said before and I’m sure I’ll get hounded down again. We’re just a win or two from gaining that intangible spark called self belief. The draw strangely enough probably had the reverse effect. Nail a few early goals, scrap out a win and we’re on our way.
Let the negative nellies reply.......

Thanks Tony. Some of what you have said is quite worrying - although I'm sure it wasn't intended to be. Appreciate your thoughts. It's obvious that Billings'confidence couldn't be any lower by the way he's playing. Can't hit the side of the barn, either with field or goal kicking. And when he does win the ball now, he invariably tries to handpass so that he doesn't have to kick.

I personally believe that a lot of this stuff was building in the 2nd half of last year and the club collectively don't appear to have noticed it or acknowledged it though. Jack's kicking last year, not just at goal was terrible as well. When does confidence become the issue and the decision becomes whether they are up to the level? Not saying that Jack isn't up to it, but if this continues (and like I said this form hasn't just been this year) then decisions will need to be made on some of these players.

[spert]

I'll tell you where we will lose it- the midfield.

[st.byron]

O.K. This will cause a barrage of criticism but it’s the fact. Nothing wrong with the coaches, nothing wrong with the game plan, nothing wrong with team selection. What is fundamentally wrong is the skill level and confidence. It’s deplorable. Absolutely deplorable. And they all know it.

Oh lord. We are absolutely stuffed. The ultimate in point blank denial. Just who is responsible for the mental state of the players, which drives their capacity to execute.

[spert]

O.K. This will cause a barrage of criticism but it’s the fact. Nothing wrong with the coaches, nothing wrong with the game plan, nothing wrong with team selection. What is fundamentally wrong is the skill level and confidence. It’s deplorable. Absolutely deplorable. And they all know it.

Oh lord. We are absolutely stuffed. The ultimate in point blank denial. Just who is responsible for the mental state of the players, which drives their capacity to execute.

Gawd this is deplorable...

[st.byron]

O.K. This will cause a barrage of criticism but it’s the fact. Nothing wrong with the coaches, nothing wrong with the game plan, nothing wrong with team selection. What is fundamentally wrong is the skill level and confidence. It’s deplorable. Absolutely deplorable. And they all know it.

Oh lord. We are absolutely stuffed. The ultimate in point blank denial. Just who is responsible for the mental state of the players, which drives their capacity to execute.

Gawd this is deplorable...

You don’t agree that players who had excellent skills and who are now playing like rabbits must be lacking mental focus and confidence. And who is responsible for ‘leading’ that process? The leadership of the club......I.e. the coaches

[Yorkeys]

Gawn and Hogan. The selectors and coaches have to come up with a plan. Ok to let Gawn have shots straight in front 30 out but Hogan would probably nail his.

[David-Lee]

So I don't see anyone dropping Billings here.

That is a problem.

If we dropped Billings we would currently be having 4 to 5 less shots at goal a game ..... which equates to 9 to 10 less pts or 20 - 25% of our score

And what would we ever do without Billings 4 to 5 behinds?

[thejiggingsaint]

We will WIN! It may not be pretty. It may not be by a big score. BUT ......... We WILL win!

[Yorkeys]

Two big forwards to take some of the defence focus off Paddy. Double team Hogan. Geary to run through Oliver early. Try not to fumble. Confidence will come because it can only go up - nothing to lose anymore - have fun, take out the driver no laying up; chaos ball is better than a straight turnover. But Membrey has to be dropped for his miss and Gilbert for his inability to close down and Sinclair should be told you owe us for Smith running amok - were you watching and learning. Marshal and Austin in. Please no more same same. Group hug for young Billings and a guarantee he will not be dropped. You don't drop class unless he peed on Alan's desk - and even then think about it.

[supersaints]

Thanks Tony,
As usual appreciate your input to the forum

To Help "go figure" why having more shots at goal than ever and the result being worse.. I haven't coached football at any level , but I have coached golf and I can tell you from a matter of fact that repeating the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome is crazy. It does not work and only engrains poor performance

I don't know Ben Dixon but I am extremely concerned. Since we recruited him as specialist kicking coach and since he has taken the players under his wing most (if not all) have actually gone severely backwards.

I would reason that most players miss goals when taking a deliberate shot compared to on the run or a snap shot is likely that they have to much time think about it, the more time you you think about the mechanical process (using your left side brain) then the less likely your right side (intuitive that actually knows what to do) will function.

From the golf aspect you do need to use right brain technique to learn or adjust skills but when executing shots you can't go thinking of technique you need to have the skills or changes down pat and allow your intuitive side to do what you can do. It's possible that all will come well , but there's something rotten in Denmark I'd suggest overload of information


I suggest there is some mental damage done and suggest you consult with your sports psychologists The fact that EVERY PLAYER has gone backwards would indicate that they are all being told to do the same thing... I mean Membery and Acres were fluent in their goal kicking now the whole team has the YIPS.

As a matter of fact if they were golfers working on something I'd be instructing them to take a break . I'd suggest doing the same on kicking goal for a weeks or two .... maybe backing off on the goal kicking practice may help stop them over thinking.

[supersaints]

Mmm ...meant to say "From the golf aspect you do need to use left brain technique ... I really should review my posts

[freely]

Good piece from Bob Murphy in this morning's Age about the "yips" - hope the players read it!

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/che ... 4zcxe.html

[felix]

Kicking goals for the team isn't working ..I wanna see some selfishness and glory in kicking more goals than your mates.