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dragit wrote: ↑Sat 19 Jan 2019 8:04pm
I'm tipping most of us are spewing in 6 months time when hickey is tearing it up, finals bound and we are desperate for a decent 1st choice ruckmen.
It would take a remarkable change of fortune and direction for billy to get another contract, let alone lead us towards being a finals bound outfit.
The 80's are over unfortunately, ruckmen need to be able to catch the ball and also regularly get it to teammeates... something longer still doesn't look capable of after 7 years.
If history repeats, we'll pay overs for another ruckmen and thrn trade them on 4 years later for peanuts.
Difficult for Hickey knowing he is a stop gap until Nic Nat comes back. I dont think he will be tearing anything up nor does he need to . Consistent performance would be all they hope for.
I am tipping that with a bit of luck and an injury free run, influence from Lade, that Billy will take a big leap forward. Atleast I am hoping so!
dragit wrote: ↑Sat 19 Jan 2019 8:04pm
I'm tipping most of us are spewing in 6 months time when hickey is tearing it up, finals bound and we are desperate for a decent 1st choice ruckmen.
dragit wrote: ↑Sat 19 Jan 2019 8:04pm
I'm tipping most of us are spewing in 6 months time when hickey is tearing it up, finals bound and we are desperate for a decent 1st choice ruckmen.
It would take a remarkable change of fortune and direction for billy to get another contract, let alone lead us towards being a finals bound outfit.
The 80's are over unfortunately, ruckmen need to be able to catch the ball and also regularly get it to teammeates... something longer still doesn't look capable of after 7 years.
If history repeats, we'll pay overs for another ruckmen and thrn trade them on 4 years later for peanuts.
Get off the Monkey Dust!!!!!
'Cause StoneCold Said So'!!!!! We will be great again once Billy is back playing!!!!!
The fact that it's neck and neck in the poll (16 vs 17 at this stage) should put the less-experienced Pierce ahead. Longer has probably reached his ceiling and maintained it, whereas Pierce may have some upside to come.
I hope Alabakis comes from left field and pips them both - as he is quick and athletic - apparently he covers 3/4 of a basketball court in 3.08 secs (that's over 22 metres) - which probably translates to a sub 3 sec 20 metre. Which is amazing for his size.
And his endurance is quite good. Go The Big Lab (owski).
samoht wrote: ↑Sun 20 Jan 2019 10:41am
The fact that it's neck and neck in the poll (16 vs 17 at this stage) should put the less-experienced Pierce ahead. Longer has probably reached his ceiling and maintained it, whereas Pierce may have some upside to come.
I hope Alabakis comes from left field and pips them both - as he is quick and athletic - apparently he covers 3/4 of a basketball court in 3.08 secs (that's over 22 metres) - which probably translates to a sub 3 sec 20 metre. Which is amazing for his size.
And his endurance is quite good. Go The Big Lab (owski).
Yes I tend to agree. I thought Pierce showed enough in the matches he played late in the season to suggest he can become a more than handy ruckman. Has a higher ceiling than Longer and should get first go at it.
tedtheodorelogan2018 wrote: ↑Sun 20 Jan 2019 8:50am
Catch the ball...lol. Is this baseball? Lol.
I realise it's probably a massive reach for that little peanut rattling around in your head but: you do need to catch the ball in order to take a mark.
samoht wrote: ↑Sun 20 Jan 2019 10:41am
The fact that it's neck and neck in the poll (16 vs 17 at this stage) should put the less-experienced Pierce ahead. Longer has probably reached his ceiling and maintained it, whereas Pierce may have some upside to come.
I hope Alabakis comes from left field and pips them both - as he is quick and athletic - apparently he covers 3/4 of a basketball court in 3.08 secs (that's over 22 metres) - which probably translates to a sub 3 sec 20 metre. Which is amazing for his size.
And his endurance is quite good. Go The Big Lab (owski).
Yes I tend to agree. I thought Pierce showed enough in the matches he played late in the season to suggest he can become a more than handy ruckman. Has a higher ceiling than Longer and should get first go at it.
I voted for Longer to get first crack... but my hope is that with a fair go that Pierce overtakes him.
My concern is that barring injury... he won’t get it
samoht wrote: ↑Sun 20 Jan 2019 10:41am
The fact that it's neck and neck in the poll (16 vs 17 at this stage) should put the less-experienced Pierce ahead. Longer has probably reached his ceiling and maintained it, whereas Pierce may have some upside to come.
I hope Alabakis comes from left field and pips them both - as he is quick and athletic - apparently he covers 3/4 of a basketball court in 3.08 secs (that's over 22 metres) - which probably translates to a sub 3 sec 20 metre. Which is amazing for his size.
And his endurance is quite good. Go The Big Lab (owski).
Yes I tend to agree. I thought Pierce showed enough in the matches he played late in the season to suggest he can become a more than handy ruckman. Has a higher ceiling than Longer and should get first go at it.
Just cant understand the relevance to how fast he can run on a basketball court. He has no clue with AFL, which is ok because he is a project. See how fast he runs with players banging into him. He has a number of seasons before he is in the conversation. Pierce is a long way off Longer and will rely on injury to get a game. The results of a poll, mainly polling nuffy supporters like us is also irrelevant in determining the best Ruckman. Longer is first pick for round one,. Second choice will probably be Marshall, with a rejigged game plan i.e. having Marshall concede centre bounces but beating his opponent by dragging him forward.
We need to get real Longer can't play for us ever again unless he shows dramatic improvement. I'm also not sure why people dicsount Marshall as a genuine ruck prospect. He has the height and athletic ability and with time he should develop nicely
darylcowie wrote: ↑Wed 16 Jan 2019 4:17pm
It has to be Longer, the best tap ruckman of an ordinary trio.
Marshall is the best around the ground option to chop out each quarter, but spend more time drifting forward and back, which Longer doesn't have the tank to do and even if he did he can't take a mark!
Pierce is second choice, but has similar issues to Longer re tank and marking.
Agreed.
My hope would be that if Longer doesn’t improve markedly that Pierce will get the opportunity for an extended run for development like Billy has
Hickey was a dud..played 3 good games GWS and Melb only averaged 1-2 marks per game normally on his own and surprised if he was in a position to take a pack mark.
The problem on this site, everyone remembers his good games and because he's been out injured so often he's not around to change people's thoughts.
He will play early for westcoast until he exposes his inefficiencies. Won't last long..
Honest question; do you think any of the three, now four, ruckmen we currently have on the list are better? Because I don't think any of them are TBH. Longer rucks differently, not necessarily better. My concern is why we re-contracted two players who are not going to take us forward and traded our ruckman who was currently already contracted for a draft pick which is speculative at best. What sort of move is that?
Remember McEvoy - he took his game to a new level after receiving decent coaching and player development at the Hawks. If Hickey improves this year and takes his game to the next level a lot of decision-makers at St. Kilda are going to have eggs on their faces. And I think, if this happens, that Longer will seek a move elsewhere chasing the same opportunities.
Our player development is extremely suspect and has been since the Lyon-era, and I think we scapegoat young, inexperienced players instead of laying the blame where it actually lies.
I think it's very debatable that Ben took his game up a notch. Yes, he has some nice jewellery around his neck from the experience, but if you put Longer in that list (at the time), he would probably also have the medals. Hawthorne could have won their last three cups with me rucking for them.
Billy will start the season off, and I expect he will continue to be #1 until proven otherwise. I did however like what Marshall was bringing late last season
Just cant understand the relevance to how fast he can run on a basketball court. He has no clue with AFL, which is ok because he is a project. See how fast he runs with players banging into him. He has a number of seasons before he is in the conversation. Pierce is a long way off Longer and will rely on injury to get a game. The results of a poll, mainly polling nuffy supporters like us is also irrelevant in determining the best Ruckman. Longer is first pick for round one,. Second choice will probably be Marshall, with a rejigged game plan i.e. having Marshall concede centre bounces but beating his opponent by dragging him forward.
Longer will probably be the first picked based on his physicality. So I agree with you there (even if I prefer Pierce with his possible upside).
That's why I said I hope Alabakis "comes out of left field" ... obviously he will only become relevant and come into calculations if he shows something. His athleticism would prove handy if he gets there, that's all.
I note he has played rugby, where people do get "banged into" as you put it.
The fact is, he only has F grade ruckmen to beat ... Longer and Pierce are not even C or D grade - so if he can't get to their level within a year or two, and become our starting ruckman by then - we should draw a line through him.
Secretly hoping to a Longer vs Hickey game when we play west coast and I think Hickey will thrash him.. And we can finally settle who the better ruck is.
Just cant understand the relevance to how fast he can run on a basketball court. He has no clue with AFL, which is ok because he is a project. See how fast he runs with players banging into him. He has a number of seasons before he is in the conversation. Pierce is a long way off Longer and will rely on injury to get a game. The results of a poll, mainly polling nuffy supporters like us is also irrelevant in determining the best Ruckman. Longer is first pick for round one,. Second choice will probably be Marshall, with a rejigged game plan i.e. having Marshall concede centre bounces but beating his opponent by dragging him forward.
Longer will probably be the first picked based on his physicality. So I agree with you there (even if I prefer Pierce with his possible upside).
That's why I said I hope Alabakis "comes out of left field" ... obviously he will only become relevant and come into calculations if he shows something. His athleticism would prove handy if he gets there, that's all.
I note he has played rugby, where people do get "banged into" as you put it.
The fact is, he only has F grade ruckmen to beat ... Longer and Pierce are not even C or D grade - so if he can't get to their level within a year or two, and become our starting ruckman by then - we should draw a line through him.
Nothing wrong with hoping Sam makes a go of it! Just dont think it will be for a number of years if he does.
Number 1 ruck spot will be Billy's to lose and if thats the case, then Marshall would be next. The problem I see with Marshall is that he is an ok forward and an ok ruckman, but may fall short of been an A grader in any one of the positions. He is a really good prospect as a back up . I just think he sits behind a few forwards at the moment.
Longer had the natural talent as a junior. FFS you don't go top 10 in the national draft if you're a shite player
So what happened?
From some of the anecdotal evidence it seems that Billy did not quite have the ambition and drive to be the best he could be and he didn't commit to all the things a professional athlete needs to work on. Perhaps I'm wrong and perhaps he did have the discipline and the ambition. I'm just guessing, but perhaps the coaches he has had at St Kilda have also done a poor job
I reckon we'll be better off with guys who want to commit to achieving the best that they can be and helping drive the team to achieve success on a regular consistent basis. If Longer wants to grow up and live up to the potential he showed as an 18 year old, perhaps St Kilda can progress up the ladder.
Just cant understand the relevance to how fast he can run on a basketball court. He has no clue with AFL, which is ok because he is a project. See how fast he runs with players banging into him. He has a number of seasons before he is in the conversation. Pierce is a long way off Longer and will rely on injury to get a game. The results of a poll, mainly polling nuffy supporters like us is also irrelevant in determining the best Ruckman. Longer is first pick for round one,. Second choice will probably be Marshall, with a rejigged game plan i.e. having Marshall concede centre bounces but beating his opponent by dragging him forward.
Longer will probably be the first picked based on his physicality. So I agree with you there (even if I prefer Pierce with his possible upside).
That's why I said I hope Alabakis "comes out of left field" ... obviously he will only become relevant and come into calculations if he shows something. His athleticism would prove handy if he gets there, that's all.
I note he has played rugby, where people do get "banged into" as you put it.
The fact is, he only has F grade ruckmen to beat ... Longer and Pierce are not even C or D grade - so if he can't get to their level within a year or two, and become our starting ruckman by then - we should draw a line through him.
What is an "F" grade ruckman? A grade I understand, ie Gawn or Natanui, but F grade? Who are B, C, D & E? Does it go right down to Z? Longer, even with his limitations, was pretty good in 2015 and 17, is that "F" grade?
Obviously it's a notional grade,takeaway (using my grading system) ....I'd rate Grundy (Collingwood), Stefan Martin and maybe Gawn an A; Nankervis,Goldstein and McEvoy a B; maybe Hickey on a good day a C... Longer and Pierce aren't close to that, imho, so I see them as F graders (I've made up this notional scale to "appropriately" grade them, and used a bit of artistic licence for effect - as I see them - you might rate them differently, as D graders, maybe?).
samoht wrote: ↑Mon 21 Jan 2019 2:25pm
Obviously it's a notional grade,takeaway (using my grading system) ....I'd rate Grundy (Collingwood), Stefan Martin and maybe Gawn an A; Nankervis,Goldstein and McEvoy a B; maybe Hickey on a good day a C... Longer and Pierce aren't close to that, imho, so I see them as F graders (I've made up this notional scale to "appropriately" grade them, and used a bit of artistic licence for effect - as I see them - you might rate them differently).
OK, Hickey did have a few "C" days, perhaps even a "B" day, but he also had quite a few Fs, and a couple of Zs. Longer for me when he is fit is more consistent, probably B to F. I agree with Scollop's post that his attitude to succeed probably hasn't been as it should, he has had injuries, and perhaps hasn't been coached to get the best out of him. He was a star as a junior, good leap and mark, he can still leap reasonably (for the tap out), why doesn't he leap more for marks around the ground? Injury? Coaching instructions? Affects your confidence. Hopefully the club has said - go for it Billy, you are No. 1 ruck, prove it, and earn a better contract. This year will be interesting.
It doesn't always get back to coaching, and nurturing. You need ability - and maybe what he did as a junior against smaller bodies is different to what he can do now?
He's certainly not mobile - and you need to be that for the modern game.
Good AFL players are made of the right stuff, and are self motivated. Billy is a big boy - If it is to be (and he has the ability) it's up to he - there's nothing stopping him.
Hickey was also playing injured at various stages, takeaway - I think you're being harsh on Hickey giving him a "Z" rating on those occasions, and excusing Longer when he may have played injured (and overlooking some of his shockers, including Billy's 1 possession game vs North Melbourne when Goldstein tore him and us a new one).
saintspremiers wrote: ↑Thu 17 Jan 2019 9:51am
There is only one player I absolutely detest that is still on our list after our long needed Big Cull of 2018, and that is Billy.
Anyone but Billy (except Acres)
Lonie is anyone but Billy!!!
“Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.”
― Aristophanes
If you have a Bee in your Bonnet - I can assist you with that - but it WILL involve some smacking upside the head!
