Longer Marshall combination

[st sandy]

I will no doubt be howled down .........however i thought Billy L was OK last night being first game back for along time
Great to see him take a few significant pack marks on the city wing which will hopefully give him confidence that there is more to his game than tap work
My view is that he should play for the next few weeks
Bring in Marshall when fit and develop a ruck combination that allows Marshall to play forward. Also can play back when needed and pitch hit in the ruck. With Bruce injury we were noticeably short at either end last night
Marshall is still young and you don’t want his body to be battered in the ruck given his other strengths
Billy can be the battering ram

[howlinwolf]

Well, I'm not howlin' you down StS.
Hang in there as I agree with you.

I wasn't impressed with Billy's game. Yet again.
He probably gave us his best. It's just not that good.
Took some good contested grabs,surprisngly.
But when we went forward, as usual, he led to where he knew the ball wouldn't go, ready for the next ruck contest.
In my opinion he has litle footy brain.
That's the opposite to Marshall.

However this week I would give him another game because he'd be up against Mumford.
He can weather the storm in the ruck.
Include Marshall for Lonie. Sounds crazy size wise but..
We have some more talls up forward.
Bruce is NQR and we badly missed another tall up forward this week.

Back our midfield to do better, more options up forward with an extra midfielder when Marshall is rucking and we have a chance.

[samuraisaint]

And I'll third that opinion St Sandy. Longer played arguably his best game for us last night considering the opposition and circumstances. We don't have a CHF or a CHB at the moment, and no real second ruck option last night. He did take some good marks as you stated, competed well all night, and made space around the clearances, and it wasn't his fault that our mids couldn't get first use, they were just outplayed. He hasn't played seniors since June or July last year, so even allowing for him being a bit rusty I thought he did a good job.
Longer MUST play next week against the big Mummy, with Marshall to play as a second tall forward, and to play the relieving ruck role when Billy is being rested.
And I desperately want to see him play against Hickey in the ruck the week after against the Weagles.
We will only be able to gauge his true worth to the side after a few matches in a row in our new system.

[Special]

Longer will get a game by default because Bruce is likely to miss and we need the talls

Not ideal

[howlinwolf]

I reckon Bruce will play.
I'd bring in Marshall (full forward/ruck) and Hunter.
Out Lonie and Kent ( or Long if injuried)

[whiskers3614]

Never been a coach basher but...
look up Geelong vs WCE 3 quarter time and see Stanley in Geelongs top 3 and Hickey WCE top ranked in fantasy points for Geelong!
This after McEvoy in top few best this week and last!
Definitely something wrong with either our recruiting, trading or use of ruckmen!

[fugazi]

Never been a coach basher but...
look up Geelong vs WCE 3 quarter time and see Stanley in Geelongs top 3 and Hickey WCE top ranked in fantasy points for Geelong!
This after McEvoy in top few best this week and last!
Definitely something wrong with either our recruiting, trading or use of ruckmen!

Or with our patience in developing big blokes

[King12]

Longer will get a game by default because Bruce is likely to miss and we need the talls

Not ideal

Not sure how it is by default, if so, that means the ten or so others that played worse than him will be getting a game by default.

If that's the case, we might as well not bother travelling.

[Linton Lodger]

The only thing I've got against playing both of them, is our forward set up and defence. We've lost Lonie for 6-8 weeks, I don't think someone can come in and do what he's been doing. Then if you put Marshall in there as well, our forward defence may fall down. If Bruce doesn't get up, Battle has to take his place, or at least Marsh who is really quick.

[King12]

The only thing I've got against playing both of them, is our forward set up and defence. We've lost Lonie for 6-8 weeks, I don't think someone can come in and do what he's been doing. Then if you put Marshall in there as well, our forward defence may fall down. If Bruce doesn't get up, Battle has to take his place, or at least Marsh who is really quick.

Disagree, Battle has to stay back. Marsh needs more game time in the VFL, the week off won't help his mini-preseason.

I think we really need two big forwards, Membrey is not one of the big two.

[guitars4]

Billy took more marks in yesterday's game than he took in a whole season last year. He wasn't great but it was his 1st game back in the big league so I will give him another chance.

[bigcarl]

Definitely something wrong with either our recruiting, trading or use of ruckmen!

It was always clear - to me at least - that McEvoy was going to be a very good player.

Hickey - after a super 2016 season - was inexplicably demoted to second ruck. Again, it was clear that he was a better footballer than Longer. No wonder he didn't develop after Longer was prefered and RIcho's plans didn't extend to playing a second ruckman.

As for Stanley, we tried to turn him into a key forward. That was the thinking at the time but he's since proved a very capable ruckman.

So yes, I agree

[Scollop]

Never been a coach basher but...
look up Geelong vs WCE 3 quarter time and see Stanley in Geelongs top 3 and Hickey WCE top ranked in fantasy points for Geelong!
This after McEvoy in top few best this week and last!
Definitely something wrong with either our recruiting, trading or use of ruckmen!

Or with our patience in developing big blokes

Richo had no involvement regarding McEvoy leaving but he would have definitely had a say regarding Rhys Stanley.

I'm not sure why St Kilda have failed to develop our ruckmen and coach our ruckmen well. Maybe recruiting staff and list management were too quick to write off the players on the list and thought they could replace them

With regard to Tom Hickey, it seems that in 2017 that we were impatient and perhaps there was a culture within the Saints where we were in a hurry for success. Perhaps it had something to do with the impending retirement of Nick Riewoldt

In any case, Richo had a couple of athletes and good footballers at his disposal and he failed to embrace their strengths. He should have stood up to the recruiters and stood up and supported his existing ruckmen when list management wanted to trade them. One other thing...

Next time we get the chance to recruit a young ruckman, the first and most important thing we can do to assist them with their career will be to ensure that they don't spend 8 hours a day playing playstation

[saintsRrising]

Next time we get the chance to recruit a young ruckman, the first and most important thing we can do to assist them with their career will be to ensure that they don't spend 8 hours a day playing playstation

Actually I hope that we do not get such a chance.

I have long held the view that you worry about rucks last once you have built the rest of your team.

History has shown that virtually all the recent premiership teams go out and get a ruck when they need them.

Young rucks are a high risk strategy. Much more certain is to recruit a mature ruck, or failing that a younger ruck who already has many years under his belt.

Young talls in general are a high risk pick and hopefully Max King picked over Rozee will be one of the few times that such a gamble works as the Saints sorely need some genuine elite players if we are going to push up to the top.


Having said that Marshall our rookie picked ruckman should now be persevered with as he is at the club. The irony here is that he may well have really been picked up as a tall key position player who will end up being our No 1 ruck more by accident than any good planning. Certainly up until recently the Saints had been doing little to foster his ruck play.

[Shaggy]

Never been a coach basher but...
look up Geelong vs WCE 3 quarter time and see Stanley in Geelongs top 3 and Hickey WCE top ranked in fantasy points for Geelong!
This after McEvoy in top few best this week and last!
Definitely something wrong with either our recruiting, trading or use of ruckmen!

Or with our patience in developing big blokes

Richo had no involvement regarding McEvoy leaving but he would have definitely had a say regarding Rhys Stanley.

I'm not sure why St Kilda have failed to develop our ruckmen and coach our ruckmen well. Maybe recruiting staff and list management were too quick to write off the players on the list and thought they could replace them

With regard to Tom Hickey, it seems that in 2017 that we were impatient and perhaps there was a culture within the Saints where we were in a hurry for success. Perhaps it had something to do with the impending retirement of Nick Riewoldt

In any case, Richo had a couple of athletes and good footballers at his disposal and he failed to embrace their strengths. He should have stood up to the recruiters and stood up and supported his existing ruckmen when list management wanted to trade them. One other thing...

Next time we get the chance to recruit a young ruckman, the first and most important thing we can do to assist them with their career will be to ensure that they don't spend 8 hours a day playing playstation

Marshall is home grown ... our number one ruck ... and a gun.

I find it hard to believe some supporters think Hickey or Stanley are better. They are both 28 years old. McEvoy is 29 years old.

Marshall is only 23 years old and Longer is 25 years old after missing one year due to injury. Longer as a 23 year old has the Saints record for hit outs.

IMO Richo knows how to develop rucks. Why some supporters want the really old rucks back is beyond me.

[Shaggy]

Next time we get the chance to recruit a young ruckman, the first and most important thing we can do to assist them with their career will be to ensure that they don't spend 8 hours a day playing playstation

Actually I hope that we do not get such a chance.

I have long held the view that you worry about rucks last once you have built the rest of your team.

History has shown that virtually all the recent premiership teams go out and get a ruck when they need them.

Young rucks are a high risk strategy. Much more certain is to recruit a mature ruck, or failing that a younger ruck who already has many years under his belt.

Young talls in general are a high risk pick and hopefully Max King picked over Rozee will be one of the few times that such a gamble works as the Saints sorely need some genuine elite players if we are going to push up to the top.


Having said that Marshall our rookie picked ruckman should now be persevered with as he is at the club. The irony here is that he may well have really been picked up as a tall key position player who will end up being our No 1 ruck more by accident than any good planning. Certainly up until recently the Saints had been doing little to foster his ruck play.

We rucked him last year alot as a 2nd ruck. We then traded out Hickey and told Marshall he is to take up ruck duties. That is hardly an accident. Its called development.

[bigcarl]

Never been a coach basher but...
look up Geelong vs WCE 3 quarter time and see Stanley in Geelongs top 3 and Hickey WCE top ranked in fantasy points for Geelong!
This after McEvoy in top few best this week and last!
Definitely something wrong with either our recruiting, trading or use of ruckmen!

Or with our patience in developing big blokes

Marshall is home grown ... our number one ruck ... and a gun.

I find it hard to believe some supporters think Hickey or Stanley are better. They are both 28 years old. McEvoy is 29 years old.

Marshall is only 23 years old and Longer is 25 years old after missing one year due to injury. Longer as a 23 year old has the Saints record for hit outs.

IMO Richo knows how to develop rucks. Why some supporters want the really old rucks back is beyond me.

I don’t think anyone (with the possible exception of Stonecold) is disputing Marshall’s potentially our best ruckman in many years. It’s more a criticism of how the club has gone about things in the recent past. Trading out McEvoy, preferring Longer to Hickey, deciding Stanley wasn’t a ruckman.

All three are holding down the No.1 ruck spot at rival clubs, so all can play to an extent.

[Scollop]

What we want is for the Saints to be able to develop the bloody players that we already have on our list. We lost Stanley and we may have been better off keeping him the way the trade turned out. Stanley showed a lot of promise early in his career as does Marshall, so I just hope that we don't stuff this up again. No one said; "Get Stanley back or get McEvoy back"

You want Longer to come good and you are backing him until he either retires or gets delisted. I get that. I applaud that. I also want him to be the best ruckman in the league. I don't want to see him playing elsewhere and doing a servicable job elsewhere, I just want him to be coached and developed well and embraced for his strengths while he improves his weaknesses

[bigcarl]

I don’t think anyone (with the possible exception of Stonecold) is disputing Marshall’s potentially our best ruckman in many years. It’s more a criticism of how the club has gone about things in the recent past. Trading out McEvoy, preferring Longer to Hickey, deciding Stanley wasn’t a ruckman.

All three are holding down the No.1 ruck spot at rival clubs, so all can play to an extent.

We cannot botch Marshall’s development in a similar way

[saintsRrising]

Next time we get the chance to recruit a young ruckman, the first and most important thing we can do to assist them with their career will be to ensure that they don't spend 8 hours a day playing playstation

Actually I hope that we do not get such a chance.

I have long held the view that you worry about rucks last once you have built the rest of your team.

History has shown that virtually all the recent premiership teams go out and get a ruck when they need them.

Young rucks are a high risk strategy. Much more certain is to recruit a mature ruck, or failing that a younger ruck who already has many years under his belt.

Young talls in general are a high risk pick and hopefully Max King picked over Rozee will be one of the few times that such a gamble works as the Saints sorely need some genuine elite players if we are going to push up to the top.


Having said that Marshall our rookie picked ruckman should now be persevered with as he is at the club. The irony here is that he may well have really been picked up as a tall key position player who will end up being our No 1 ruck more by accident than any good planning. Certainly up until recently the Saints had been doing little to foster his ruck play.

We rucked him last year alot as a 2nd ruck. We then traded out Hickey and told Marshall he is to take up ruck duties. That is hardly an accident. Its called development.

Disagree. He was taken in the 2016 draft. The talk back then was about him being taken as a guy that could play as a key defender or key forward or as a ruckman-forward.

Longer not being fit at the seasons start has turned out to be a blessing as they had no choice but to turn to Marshall as our No1 Ruck when Pierce went down. That smacks every inch to me as being our accidental ruckman, and by ruckman I mean No1 Ruck and not the No2 who can equally be Bruce or Acres etc and so the No2 ruck role is not at all comparable to playing as the No 1 Ruck.

At 201cm, the versatile key position player won the Roosters best first-year player award in his first season in the VFL in 2015, but was starved of opportunity in the final year of North Ballarat’s alignment with North Melbourne.

Players like Marshall and Pierce were starved of opportunities to play as the ruck. Pierce before he was farmed out to Frankston was often playing as a kpp as well.

[Scollop]

Does Richo have a basic philosophy that says you don't play 2 ruckman in the same team?

So if Richo wants Marshall in the team as his number 1 ruckman, does that mean he can't play Longer?

How many games did Hickey play alongside Longer?

I suppose we will find out this year as to how many games Marshall plays alongside Longer. If Cho refuses to play both of them at least we know he is a stubborn old thing and we know where he stands

[SuperDuper]

The failure of Richo's plan to use Longer was laid bare on the weekend. Ironically in one of Longer's best games for the club. Richo has long favoured Longers strength over the around the ground abilities of a Hickey type. But the fact is we got smashed in clearances with Longer, and then got smashed in the air as well. At least with Marshall, we would have had an extra marking option at both ends of the ground.. simply put =, Marshall works harder both ways.. We really missed him.

[Shaggy]

Does Richo have a basic philosophy that says you don't play 2 ruckman in the same team?

So if Richo wants Marshall in the team as his number 1 ruckman, does that mean he can't play Longer?

How many games did Hickey play alongside Longer?

I suppose we will find out this year as to how many games Marshall plays alongside Longer. If Cho refuses to play both of them at least we know he is a stubborn old thing and we know where he stands

Richo has created the future of Marshall rucking supported by King. I love it. In a few years we have the best rucks IMO.

Longer, Pierce & Hickey last year need to be benched if they are not rucking because they are hopeless KPFs.

But that kills bench time. Clark and Steven currently only run-out 60% game time. Acres and Dmac were played under done early. Gresh, Parker and Long struggle with the stamina requirements of their roles as they develop.

Time on the bench is precious.

Why give the bench time to some average ruck rather than a manic match winner like Parker who needs it for his development?

IMO Lonie going down early last week showed how vulnerable we are on the bench. Our pressure died and Adelaide’s escalated.

[Shaggy]

Next time we get the chance to recruit a young ruckman, the first and most important thing we can do to assist them with their career will be to ensure that they don't spend 8 hours a day playing playstation

Actually I hope that we do not get such a chance.

I have long held the view that you worry about rucks last once you have built the rest of your team.

History has shown that virtually all the recent premiership teams go out and get a ruck when they need them.

Young rucks are a high risk strategy. Much more certain is to recruit a mature ruck, or failing that a younger ruck who already has many years under his belt.

Young talls in general are a high risk pick and hopefully Max King picked over Rozee will be one of the few times that such a gamble works as the Saints sorely need some genuine elite players if we are going to push up to the top.


Having said that Marshall our rookie picked ruckman should now be persevered with as he is at the club. The irony here is that he may well have really been picked up as a tall key position player who will end up being our No 1 ruck more by accident than any good planning. Certainly up until recently the Saints had been doing little to foster his ruck play.

We rucked him last year alot as a 2nd ruck. We then traded out Hickey and told Marshall he is to take up ruck duties. That is hardly an accident. Its called development.

Disagree. He was taken in the 2016 draft. The talk back then was about him being taken as a guy that could play as a key defender or key forward or as a ruckman-forward.

Longer not being fit at the seasons start has turned out to be a blessing as they had no choice but to turn to Marshall as our No1 Ruck when Pierce went down. That smacks every inch to me as being our accidental ruckman, and by ruckman I mean No1 Ruck and not the No2 who can equally be Bruce or Acres etc and so the No2 ruck role is not at all comparable to playing as the No 1 Ruck.

At 201cm, the versatile key position player won the Roosters best first-year player award in his first season in the VFL in 2015, but was starved of opportunity in the final year of North Ballarat’s alignment with North Melbourne.

Players like Marshall and Pierce were starved of opportunities to play as the ruck. Pierce before he was farmed out to Frankston was often playing as a kpp as well.

You are confusing recruitment with development.

Marshall probably was not recruited to be ruck. He is relatively small.

But he was second ruck last year some 12 games and it was fairly obvious Marshall was better than Hickey.

The problem being Hickey, Longer & Pierce can only play ruck whilst Marshall can play forward, back and ruck and therefore people think he is a great 2nd ruck.

They made the decision last year to get rid of one of Hickey or Longer to give Marshall a go as first ruck once they decided on King for the draft is my understanding.

They then also made our part time ruck coach full time. It is all very deliberate … not accidental.

[saintsRrising]

You are confusing recruitment with development.

No, you have misunderstood when I was applying the word accidental too. I was applying it to his recruitment.

Marshall probably was not recruited to be ruck. He is relatively small.

But he was second ruck last year some 12 games and it was fairly obvious Marshall was better than Hickey.

The problem being Hickey, Longer & Pierce can only play ruck whilst Marshall can play forward, back and ruck and therefore people think he is a great 2nd ruck.

They made the decision last year to get rid of one of Hickey or Longer to give Marshall a go as first ruck once they decided on King for the draft is my understanding.

Yet they picked Pierce for Round 1 and not Marshall.

And with King as their were 3 picks prior to him, the club could not have know if they would get him till the draft day.

Hickey or Longer going was all about landing Hannas.

I think more likely that preseason that Billy was still the preferred No 1 and that Pierce and Marshall were both considered back ups.

They then also made our part time ruck coach full time. It is all very deliberate … not accidental.

From your last post it would seem that you are actually agreeing with me in that Marshall was not recruited to be a No1, but now is being groomed for it. The difference is more on how you have interpreted my application of the word accidental.

Why I said that he is our "accidental" No1 ruck as he is now being groomed for a position that he was not recruited for.

Sometimes this happens. Who would have thought that Gehrig when recruited would become the G-Train our monster full forward? Or that The Blake taken as a HFF would become our full back/ No2 Ruck?

Hickey and Longer were both recruited to be No1 Rucks. Both of quite contrasting styles. Marshall was not recruited to be a No1 ruck, but now looks destined to be our No1 Ruck. This is why I referred to him as our accidental No 1 Ruck.