Seb Ross v Luke Dunstan

[Sanctorum]

The debate "Seb Ross v Dan Hannebery" has been an interesting discussion, but it occurred to me that a far more relevant comparison of players has to be Seb Ross v Luke Dunstan, all the more so as it has been pretty well established that a fully fit Hannebery will always be selected ahead of Seb Ross.

Insomuch as Ross has won 2 "Barkers" (2017 & 2019) that in itself does not mean a hell of a lot as in those years St Kilda teams were quite mediocre - viz Jack Steven who was a handy player but not elite, yet won 4!

Statistically there is not a lot of difference between these 2:

Ross - 28 next year, 188 cm, 88 kg, 140 games
Dunstan - 26, 185 cm, 84 kg, 104 games

Although Ross has won 43 Brownlow votes compared to 6 by Dunstan, the agencies that rate AFL Supercoach and Fantasy have Dunstan well ahead of Ross: $656.000/$505,300 v $516.000/$404,100

Dunstan played just the one game in 2020 but may well have cemented a permanent spot before sustaining a long term injury in a practice match in June.

The biggest downside to both Ross and Dunstan is their lack of pace and although both play midfield Ross rarely goes forward, whereas Dunstan hits the scoreboard more often.

My own thoughts are that Dunstan offers greater potential for 2021 and beyond than Ross.

2021 is a really crucial year in Dunstan's career and I expect him to find the form reflecting his 1st round drafting in 2013 at pick 18!

[skeptic]

I don’t see it at all

For all of the criticism he cops, Ross has clearly been an established top 22 for years and whether he’s been overtaken or the best of a weak team etc you can’t really take that away from him

Dunstan at his best had been a battling fringe player his entire career... he’s had a few patches of good form and at times looked like he may step up but not remotely gotten close to really getting there

Frankly... the form Ross demonstrated when ppl here are overly critical of his performance/spot in the team is better than Dunstan’s baseline

IMO, this is a no contest... whether here or somewhere else, Ross has at least a year or two in him.
Dunstan is three poor games in a row away from being cut

[The_Dud]

Dunstan.

[saynta]

Ross is a two times best and fairest winner as well as a runner up. He is the saints vice captain and a regular brownlow
vote winner as well as a regular member of the team. Top ten in 2020.

Dunstan is a footballing hack and unfortunately a list clogger who will be gone at years end.

No f****** contest AFAIC. And I like Dunstan.

[saintsRrising]

One aspect that Ross has shown is that he is a very good as a tagger on elite players in limiting their impact.

He has done well on both Bont and Dusty.

[The Billings Method]

I too, am puzzled by the lack of love for Ross on here at times, especially considering the way he finished off the season. He certainly has his weaknesses, but overall he is definitely in our best 22. For now.

It will be fascinating to see how he fits in to our midfield with the acquisitions of Crouch and Higgins, and the potential emergence of Bytel (I'm a big fan) and Ryan Byrnes.

I think his kicking will never see him highly rated by Ratts, but he did some good run with work this year, while still being able to win his own footy, which has always been his strength. I expect him to fulfill this role in 2021.

There's only room for one of Ross and Dunstan in the side. I'm going with Ross. I suspect Ratts might believe the same. It shows how weak our midfield was in the Watters/Richo eras. No Steven, Dunstan, Acres, Newnes et Al. In 2020. We didn't miss any of them. The upgrades have been outstanding.

[Ghost Like]

I'm not sure either will be in our best 22 by year's end. As hinted, Ross best serves us now as a tagging mid. The best scenario in this is that if either are in our best 22, they are bottom 6 which is an indication of how strong our list has become.

Ross over Dunstan for me. That said, our list would be a lot better if Dunstan had been given to Freo instead of Acres.

[Wayne42]

Not a lot of love for Dunstan nowadays, hard to believe that early in Dunny's career someone, was it the hot dog vendor at Seaford ?, told the media that
Dunstan was a future Saints captain.

[cwrcyn]

Ross has shown that he can consistently rack up high numbers between 25 and 30 possessions per game. Dunstan will rarely reach 25 possessions and typically gives us between 14 and 18 possessions per game. Ross is a little bit quicker, but both have poor foot skills. Dunstan's main issue is execution rather than decision making, but with Ross it's a combination of both. If you're a genuine stoppage midfielder like Dunstan you should be averaging around 23 touches a game. He's averaging about 17, which is not enough. It's now or never for Dunstan. He's had no luck with injuries. Maybe if he hadn't had so many, he'd be matching Ross for output.

[skeptic]

Ross has shown that he can consistently rack up high numbers between 25 and 30 possessions per game. Dunstan will rarely reach 25 possessions and typically gives us between 14 and 18 possessions per game. Ross is a little bit quicker, but both have poor foot skills. Dunstan's main issue is execution rather than decision making, but with Ross it's a combination of both. If you're a genuine stoppage midfielder like Dunstan you should be averaging around 23 touches a game. He's averaging about 17, which is not enough. It's now or never for Dunstan. He's had no luck with injuries. Maybe if he hadn't had so many, he'd be matching Ross for output.

I’ve always thought that Dunstan had a fitness issue myself... the fade out is and has been for far too long a very prominent feature of his game
10 possessions to halftime, 13 for the match.

He either tires and can’t get to as many contests or as he gets fatigued, psychologically he gets put off his game and doesn’t get to the right spots... something like that

It looked to me that by the end of 2020, even considering injury that Dunstan had been overtaken in the pecking order by both Bytel and Phillips which is saying something, has long since been left behind by SInclair... And now starts behind Crouch and Higgins too.

Really don’t see him making it

[cwrcyn]

It's going to be tough for him. I vaguely recall an article a couple of years back where he had to change his diet to improve his energy levels. He really has struggled with aerobic fitness on match days. If he was naturally quick it would be easier for him, but he spends more energy getting from A to B than other guys because he's a slow mover.

[vacuous space]

Seb's a starting mid. When we get the first centre bounce next year, Ross is probably there. Dunstan is probably at Sandringham. He's a depth mid, at this stage, who may have played his last game for the club. It's awfully charitable to say that injuries prevented Dunstan from cementing a spot. He tore his pec at the end of June, which was his third straight week out of the team. Supposedly, he was shopped around after the season - with no takers. I thought Seb vs Han was a non-contest, but this one's worse. I'm looking forward to Seb Ross vs Jack Bytel, however.

[whiskers3614]

Don't worry about one on ones with their team-mates...
How many of our mids (bar Steele) would get a game at Collingwood or Richmond?

[Vortex]

Dunny and Bytel is going to be the more interesting duo to watch in 2021, both will have a massive fight on their hands to push into the side. Will Dunny respond to the indignation of being shopped around without any takers. Both Dunny and Bytel will be acutely aware of the vacancy up for grabs in round 1 and 2 due to the Crouch suspension and will be forefront of their efforts during the pre season. Both will know that whoever can break into the R1 team will only have 2 games to prove they should keep Couch or possibly one of our other gun mids out of the side.

I think if Dunny can reinvent himself then he has the advantage over Bytel based on being a more mature body and suited to a side looking to become a top 4 side. But does the coach see a career for him at the club. Round 1 selection will reveal all on that score.

[skeptic]

Dunny and Bytel is going to be the more interesting duo to watch in 2021, both will have a massive fight on their hands to push into the side. Will Dunny respond to the indignation of being shopped around without any takers. Both Dunny and Bytel will be acutely aware of the vacancy up for grabs in round 1 and 2 due to the Crouch suspension and will be forefront of their efforts during the pre season. Both will know that whoever can break into the R1 team will only have 2 games to prove they should keep Couch or possibly one of our other gun mids out of the side.

I think if Dunny can reinvent himself then he has the advantage over Bytel based on being a more mature body and suited to a side looking to become a top 4 side. But does the coach see a career for him at the club. Round 1 selection will reveal all on that score.

Out of interest...
If Dunstan was to try and reinvent himself, to what would you suggest?

I remember suggesting this a year or two back and the only remotely viable option IMO was defensive forward / forward pocket.
Would now essentially start behind Butler, Higgins, Lonie, Kent, possibly Geary and a resting Gresh/Billings

No other suggestions jump out

[The Billings Method]

I would think he could reinvent himself as a Port Adelaide or Crows player in 2022.

[shanegrambeau]

In my ‘expert’ opinion, it seems to me that Dunstan is almost like Armitage was, say four years ago. Armitage may have had the speed but Dunners has the grunt, well both have grunt.

Ross seems more a nuanced, intelligent player. I base this on their respective haircuts.

[Vortex]

Dunny and Bytel is going to be the more interesting duo to watch in 2021, both will have a massive fight on their hands to push into the side. Will Dunny respond to the indignation of being shopped around without any takers. Both Dunny and Bytel will be acutely aware of the vacancy up for grabs in round 1 and 2 due to the Crouch suspension and will be forefront of their efforts during the pre season. Both will know that whoever can break into the R1 team will only have 2 games to prove they should keep Couch or possibly one of our other gun mids out of the side.

I think if Dunny can reinvent himself then he has the advantage over Bytel based on being a more mature body and suited to a side looking to become a top 4 side. But does the coach see a career for him at the club. Round 1 selection will reveal all on that score.

Out of interest...
If Dunstan was to try and reinvent himself, to what would you suggest?

I remember suggesting this a year or two back and the only remotely viable option IMO was defensive forward / forward pocket.
Would now essentially start behind Butler, Higgins, Lonie, Kent, possibly Geary and a resting Gresh/Billings

No other suggestions jump out

Yeah when I think of reinvention for Dunny I don't necessarily think of a position change. He could probably try dropping a few kegs and get his endurance up and trying to be a better 2 way runner. Thing's he does really well is get first hands to the ball and extract the ball in congestion, he has a wicked side step and is great in traffic. Thing's he doesn't do well is do those good things for 4 quarters.

He's 25 now and probably a little more mature, let's not forget he's had his turn at falling fowl of the law for giving the booze a nudge so lets see if the kick in the guts he got during the trade period is enough for him to realise he is possibly on his last chance.

Put it this way, he can be the player that keeps Bytel out of the side if he can lift his endurance.

[CQ SAINT]

Dunny and Bytel is going to be the more interesting duo to watch in 2021, both will have a massive fight on their hands to push into the side. Will Dunny respond to the indignation of being shopped around without any takers. Both Dunny and Bytel will be acutely aware of the vacancy up for grabs in round 1 and 2 due to the Crouch suspension and will be forefront of their efforts during the pre season. Both will know that whoever can break into the R1 team will only have 2 games to prove they should keep Couch or possibly one of our other gun mids out of the side.

I think if Dunny can reinvent himself then he has the advantage over Bytel based on being a more mature body and suited to a side looking to become a top 4 side. But does the coach see a career for him at the club. Round 1 selection will reveal all on that score.

Gresham comes in round 1. Bytel already played in Ross's absence last year ahead of Dunstan. So round 3 has Ross under the pump in the midfield and at half back, where Coffield and Clark will be considered for rotation and totally out class him with skill and decision making.
Higgins may push Sinclair out too.
Even if they are all fit and ready to fire, Bytel and Dunstan will be on standby at Sandy.That's called improving your list.
So much depends on Paddy Ryder staying fit. I still reckon the missing piece for a 5 year dynasty is becoming a free agent at Melbourne next year. Mr Gawn.
Clearing up some cash via Ross, Roberton, Geary and Dunstan leaves some big bait for a big big fish, while Bytel, Byrnes, Connelly and Highmore step into the void they leave at Sandy. Then we exploit all our draft picks to fill out the list.
One can only dream.

[Vortex]

Dunny and Bytel is going to be the more interesting duo to watch in 2021, both will have a massive fight on their hands to push into the side. Will Dunny respond to the indignation of being shopped around without any takers. Both Dunny and Bytel will be acutely aware of the vacancy up for grabs in round 1 and 2 due to the Crouch suspension and will be forefront of their efforts during the pre season. Both will know that whoever can break into the R1 team will only have 2 games to prove they should keep Couch or possibly one of our other gun mids out of the side.

I think if Dunny can reinvent himself then he has the advantage over Bytel based on being a more mature body and suited to a side looking to become a top 4 side. But does the coach see a career for him at the club. Round 1 selection will reveal all on that score.

Gresham comes in round 1. Bytel already played in Ross's absence last year ahead of Dunstan. So round 3 has Ross under the pump in the midfield and at half back, where Coffield and Clark will be considered for rotation and totally out class him with skill and decision making.
Higgins may push Sinclair out too.
Even if they are all fit and ready to fire, Bytel and Dunstan will be on standby at Sandy.That's called improving your list.
So much depends on Paddy Ryder staying fit. I still reckon the missing piece for a 5 year dynasty is becoming a free agent at Melbourne next year. Mr Gawn.
Clearing up some cash via Ross, Roberton, Geary and Dunstan leaves some big bait for a big big fish, while Bytel, Byrnes, Connelly and Highmore step into the void they leave at Sandy. Then we exploit all our draft picks to fill out the list.
One can only dream.

Unless Sebby gets kicked in the head by a horse he will continue to be a best 22 player.

Agree a ruckman is our target for the recruiting department in 2021 but Gawn wont be a realistic chance, not unless Melbourne implode. Bytel will stuggle to crack into the side, if he does hopefully it means he has lived up to the super hype and has knocked a current best 22 out and not because we have lost the plot and can't win a game and are dropping stars who aren't performing.

[WellardSaint]

There was an opinion that Luke was doing a lot of inside heavy work off the ball to let Stuv n Gresh get clean possessions (no idea if true) which may explain low numbers for him.
Like Stuv getting 30+, maybe was off the back of Luke's sacrifices?

Who knows.
The coaches are 100% in the picture about the truth or otherwise.
Look at the half dozen analysts in the box with the laptops

[skeptic]

There was an opinion that Luke was doing a lot of inside heavy work off the ball to let Stuv n Gresh get clean possessions (no idea if true) which may explain low numbers for him.
Like Stuv getting 30+, maybe was off the back of Luke's sacrifices?

Who knows.
The coaches are 100% in the picture about the truth or otherwise.
Look at the half dozen analysts in the box with the laptops

It was the same argument for Billy Longer too... helpful blocking

Personally I’ve always thought the notion was something of a scam myself (not suggesting that it wasn’t a perception inside the club).

When/if you start overvaluing things like blocking, chasing and guarding in place of KPIs that actually directly influence the play... IMO that’s when you’ve outsmarted yourself

For example... a forward that goes on a false lead that draws 2 defenders away from player B leading to an uncontested mark is a great little one off act that we all recognise as a valuable non-stat act... likewise one that brings the ball down in a contest to the hands of a crumbing FP

But if that forward never actually takes a contested grab or kicks goals themselves... they’re really not going to be able to contribute much in any meaningful way over the long term

Midfielders generally serve 2 purposes... get the ball or stop the opposition midfielder from getting the ball. If you can’t do either well then the club is better off finding a player that can and also does the self-sacrificial stuff

[To the top]

Ross 28 and 140 games

Dunstan 26 and 104 games (and you could say missing 2020 with injury)

So games wise over the journey on a par

When did they each debut?

We were an also ran side for a number of years because we lacked the necessary class

Of those who won our B&F over those years would those winners have commanded a place in the Premiership sides of those years because that is the measure of the gap and why St Kilda was where it was at

Unlike the days where lower finishing sides had a Champion player and those Champion players were winning Brownlow’s

Were our B&F winners winning Brownlow’s?

So we had to improve and that improvement was from turning players over

Look at a side named on here from prior to the recruiting of McCartin (and I saw a game v Hawthorn in Tasmania which said the kid could play)

Blake at full back, Gwilt at Centre half back, Lee at full forward

Allowing for the veterans, a very ordinary side then the veterans retired or left the Club

Winning the B&F is put into context by that observation also in my view

Now we have potential and an empowering and impressive Coach backed by his support troops

And we only take players who want to come to St Kilda, which is a change for the better

So, in the expectation of watching the cricket (unbelievable but not unexpected on the pace bowling front) and repeats on TV, you have copped this

Enjoy the summer

[CQ SAINT]

Dunny and Bytel is going to be the more interesting duo to watch in 2021, both will have a massive fight on their hands to push into the side. Will Dunny respond to the indignation of being shopped around without any takers. Both Dunny and Bytel will be acutely aware of the vacancy up for grabs in round 1 and 2 due to the Crouch suspension and will be forefront of their efforts during the pre season. Both will know that whoever can break into the R1 team will only have 2 games to prove they should keep Couch or possibly one of our other gun mids out of the side.

I think if Dunny can reinvent himself then he has the advantage over Bytel based on being a more mature body and suited to a side looking to become a top 4 side. But does the coach see a career for him at the club. Round 1 selection will reveal all on that score.

Gresham comes in round 1. Bytel already played in Ross's absence last year ahead of Dunstan. So round 3 has Ross under the pump in the midfield and at half back, where Coffield and Clark will be considered for rotation and totally out class him with skill and decision making.
Higgins may push Sinclair out too.
Even if they are all fit and ready to fire, Bytel and Dunstan will be on standby at Sandy.That's called improving your list.
So much depends on Paddy Ryder staying fit. I still reckon the missing piece for a 5 year dynasty is becoming a free agent at Melbourne next year. Mr Gawn.
Clearing up some cash via Ross, Roberton, Geary and Dunstan leaves some big bait for a big big fish, while Bytel, Byrnes, Connelly and Highmore step into the void they leave at Sandy. Then we exploit all our draft picks to fill out the list.
One can only dream.

Unless Sebby gets kicked in the head by a horse he will continue to be a best 22 player.

Agree a ruckman is our target for the recruiting department in 2021 but Gawn wont be a realistic chance, not unless Melbourne implode. Bytel will stuggle to crack into the side, if he does hopefully it means he has lived up to the super hype and has knocked a current best 22 out and not because we have lost the plot and can't win a game and are dropping stars who aren't performing.

I love those brash sentences you launch, like the first one in the last post. After your COVID predictions, I'm a bit concerned for Seb and hope he steers clear of horses.

Bytel won't eclipse Seb this year but Crouch will have him in a huge spin and consulting his manager a lot. I reckon he has the character to prove me wrong but he needs the skill to impress Ratten and Rath, not me.

[bakes]

Dunstable for me.

I don’t have a rational argument, it’s just that I don’t want to see Ross in the team anymore