How did we go from top 4 to season over in 5 weeks?

[SydneySainter]

We looked a team on rise before the bye.

Now, we look past our best and on brink of needing our third rebuild in the last decade.

How does it keep going so wrong?

[nobhead]

You can see during games if opposition teams get momentum saints players go into their shell.loose all confidence and start trying to play safe kicking long to contests.no overlap run ,forwards don't lead to the kicker.very predictable footy easy for opposition to defend and rebound off.and the frustrating thing is that this is not something new its been hapenning for a long time now .unfortunately imo this falls back on the coaching staff.

[Rubyjo]

Seriously I don't want to watch anymore football the umps f*** us we f*** us it's all f***ed up ..it's all f***ed ...there will be no joy for the rest of the year .

[Waltzing St Kilda]

Fantastic off-season fitness coaching made us look better than we are in first half of season.

Numerous games we won on the back of a second-half burst.

[Impatient Sainter]

We renewed a severely flawed coaches contract???

[Impatient Sainter]

We looked a team on rise before the bye.

Now, we look past our best and on brink of needing our third rebuild in the last decade.

How does it keep going so wrong?

Thats easy = Brett Ratten & David Rath.

[Wayne42]

It doesn't matter what the Saints players do at training, they get shown up on match day.

I think it's the list quality that's the issue, not the coach or his reputed biomechanical genius.

[bangaulegend]

I think you guys are missing the point Hanners drives training standards & is almost ready to play for Sandy soon . So don't be too fussed next year between you & me I think it's all rainbows & fairy bread watch this space

[Impatient Sainter]

It doesn't matter what the Saints players do at training, they get shown up on match day.

I think it's the list quality that's the issue, not the coach or his reputed biomechanical genius.

To a point Wayne - but how do you explain the lack of tactical moves in the 3rd quarter & rubbish forward 50 entries in the last? Thats coaching and a lack of a decent system in every sense, in my perspective.

Plus why was Battle who is usually our No 2 defender used to match up on smalls? When Wilkie and Joyce left to deal with Lobb & Tabener. Battle was the obvious full back when things went pear shaped and release Wilkie to play his role.

I keep saying it every week, that either Ratten has absolutley no feel for the game or he is getting some very ordinary advice during games? Either way it needs to be addressed or the club are going to waste another two years under a very mediocre coaching group.

Quality personnel helps, but quality systems and coaching are paramount IMO.

[Saintmatt]

It doesn't matter what the Saints players do at training, they get shown up on match day.

I think it's the list quality that's the issue, not the coach or his reputed biomechanical genius.

100% correct. We’re a 6th -10th placed list .. if we don’t get many injuries. You can’t coach potatos … and we have a fair few of them.

[Wayne42]

It doesn't matter what the Saints players do at training, they get shown up on match day.

I think it's the list quality that's the issue, not the coach or his reputed biomechanical genius.

To a point Wayne - but how do you explain the lack of tactical moves in the 3rd quarter & rubbish forward 50 entries in the last? Thats coaching and a lack of a decent system in every sense, in my perspective.

Plus why was Battle who is usually our No 2 defender used to match up on smalls? When Wilkie and Joyce left to deal with Lobb & Tabener. Battle was the obvious full back when things went pear shaped and release Wilkie to play his role.

I keep saying it every week, that either Ratten has absolutley no feel for the game or he is getting some very ordinary advice during games? Either way it needs to be addressed or the club are going to waste another two years under a very mediocre coaching group.

Quality personnel helps, but quality systems and coaching are paramount IMO.

You make some very good observations but maybe the coaching group are trying hard to get ordinary players to match it with the best and are failing.

Maybe the SANFL is not full of gems like we thought. There are a myriad of issues at the saints, the brains trust have been on a re-signing frenzy of late so who knows where there thinking is at.

If they are thinking.

[Yorkeys]

Played three disgraceful games out of 5, one honourable loss one win. Lose rate of 80% will do it.
Boy that contract renewal looks daft and a bit smelly right now.

[Banger9798]

Watch have a good last 4 games when it doesn't count and with King kicking a dozen goals to see us finish just outside the 8

[Teflon]

It doesn't matter what the Saints players do at training, they get shown up on match day.

I think it's the list quality that's the issue, not the coach or his reputed biomechanical genius.

To a point Wayne - but how do you explain the lack of tactical moves in the 3rd quarter & rubbish forward 50 entries in the last? Thats coaching and a lack of a decent system in every sense, in my perspective.

Plus why was Battle who is usually our No 2 defender used to match up on smalls? When Wilkie and Joyce left to deal with Lobb & Tabener. Battle was the obvious full back when things went pear shaped and release Wilkie to play his role.

I keep saying it every week, that either Ratten has absolutley no feel for the game or he is getting some very ordinary advice during games? Either way it needs to be addressed or the club are going to waste another two years under a very mediocre coaching group.

Quality personnel helps, but quality systems and coaching are paramount IMO.

Good post
Before the bye no one was saying it’s a 7-12 list
Now we are no good?
Structure or lack of in a game plan is so obvious
Even first half - players handballing to each other under pressure until eventual turn over
No system into forward 50 - has been a problem for years
How Lade , McGlynn can survive is beyond belief they are hangovers to Richo days cause the place has to many “nice guys” running it
Yes we also have and carry to many list cloggers - Jones, Butler, Billings (total flop)
Our future is King, Windhager, Owens, NWM, abd we badly need to add some class and FFS that’s not De Goey
Unfortunately we’ve just received-signed a guy who has already over seen this directly for 3 years and was on the coaching panel for the 6 beige years prior to that
We are in no man’s land going backwards

[bangaulegend]

Sure our list is a bit light on for talent but who's fault is that? .We have drafted & recruited ourselves into this position . Time to tank now get the best HFF or best HBF we can get our hands on or lets go crazy & target a winger nah thats too extreme lets just stick to what we know

[Impatient Sainter]

There is no doubt our list has a way to go, but under Ratten where is the development/improvement coming from our mid tier players ?

Clark is allergic to the gym.
Coffield injury prone.
Gresham couldnt run out of sight in the dark.
Jones is flakey.
Billings plays like mini mouse.
Crouch shinier version of Dunstan.
Higgins is another serious concussion away from?
Butler is flakey.
Long is not a clean ball handler or natural accumulator.
Paton can only improve after a s*** injury.
Wood is a complete GOP.
Webster is a battler.

Steele, DMac, Battle & Sinclair are probably the only mid aged players to have improved under Ratten.

Wilkie & Marshall are our sole beneficiaries of players who have actually significantly improved at the club. 6 out of list of 45 and to think of all the players delisted since they first joined the club its scary really.

[Wayne42]

There was no real player development unde Richo either. Mr Carroll has a tough gig since joining the Saints for the 2022 season.

When does this player development occur, it doesn't really happen at training sessions the supporters attend as they appear to be more team orientated.

[Scollop]

There was no real player development unde Richo either. Mr Carroll has a tough gig since joining the Saints for the 2022 season.

When does this player development occur, it doesn't really happen at training sessions the supporters attend as they appear to be more team orientated.

Training involves piss-farting around while doing drills and telling a few jokes and tickling each other while running laps and then they kick soccer balls around

[realdeal]

Played three disgraceful games out of 5, one honourable loss one win. Lose rate of 80% will do it.
Boy that contract renewal looks daft and a bit smelly right now.

It was daft and a bit smelly 24hrs ago too... Under the circumstances it's down right negligent and irresponsible on our behalf.

Even if we resign him, you don't do it via the timeline we have.

[kosifantutti]

I just checked the ladder. We are out of the 8 on percentage. I'm not sure how that equates to season over.

[D.B.Cooper]

I just checked the ladder. We are out of the 8 on percentage. I'm not sure how that equates to season over.

Season over definition to me is not making the top 8.
I'm an optimist by nature, but I'll reluctantly lay a wager with you we don't play finals this year.

[Wayne42]

We were 8-3, now we are 9-7.
Saints
Bulldogs
Suns
Port
All still a chance to replace a team currently in the 8.

I'll give the club a tip.
You can only get in the 8 if you win, consistently.

There are only 6 games left, which are....
Dogs @ Marvel
Eagles at Optus WA
Hawks @ Marvel
Cats @ Kardinia Park
Lions @ Marvel
Swans @ Marvel

[Sanctorum]

It was entirely predictable that the anti-Ratten Brigade on this forum were going to sink the boot deeper into Brett Ratten (and the club for extending his contract) after such a woeful result on Saturday night and to be honest, I felt utterly devastated, disgusted, disenchanted, despondent, pissed off even, after enduring the agony of watching the total capitulation by the team against Fremantle, a team that they had beaten in WA no less earlier in the season.

I have purposely held off coming online until today because if there is one thing I have learned after decades of being a passionate Sainter, it is that it's much better to wait until well after the dust has settled to pass judgment when St Kilda get done, but yes, I lay awake for a fair while on Saturday night going over the many lowlights of the game.

Included in my ruminations about the game it struck me how unique and ultra exciting Aussie Rules is compared to all other codes of football.

36 players on the field at the same time, a very large oval shaped playing field with 4 tall posts at each end, 3 central, 4 boundary and 2 goal umpires, there's no other sport remotely like ours on this planet. It is an incredible number of moving parts which makes it really difficult to avoid chaos and develop a complex game plan, the success of which is entirely dependent on the skill levels and teamwork of the 36 individual players. So much can go wrong, not least inconsistent decisions by the umpires, and let's face it, they're not popes, they stuff up as easily as the players.

If there is one thing that I feel sure about in our elite competition in the modern era it is that it is never ever simply the case that the coach is responsible for the outcome of a game, win or lose. That was probably quite so back in the good ole days of Jack "Captain Blood" Dyer, Ron Barassi, Tom Hafey, Alan Jeans, John Kennedy, Ted Whitten, an era when football was a tough man's game, played at a snail's pace compared to today, plenty of blood and guts, and coaches that all but belted the s*** out of their players when they stuffed up. We need to recognise that in the 21st century the game is so much different to what it was in the 50s, 60s and 70s.

Just consider this: David Noble had to prostrate himself in front of his playing group and apologise for giving them a verbal spray, what is the world coming to????

So, as I've mentioned in previous posts, in my mind by far the most important factor in a team's performance is the quality of the team list. It is only when a list has accumulated a strong balance of experience and youth, at the very least 6, preferably more genuine A grade players, that the club is in a position to respond effectively to the coach's carefully crafted game plan and posses the required teamwork to carry this out successfully and become a serious contender for the silverware.

By any measure, St Kilda's playing list is well short of those benchmarks and I remain convinced that Brett Ratten should not be condemned for the failure of the players to take full advantage in dominating the possession count, clearances and time the ball was locked in St Kilda's forward zone. Poor skills cost the team big time, there were simply not enough highly skilled players to do the job, whereas Freo had many many more. Once again opposition teams were able to counter a dysfunctional St Kilda forward line.

I'm in no doubt that if the selectors had their time over again they would have played Lienert instead of Joyce in Howard's absence - I mean, why pick a bloke who has played just 2 games this year and only 13 in 4 seasons, instead of Lienert who's played 7 and 30, the mismatch on Rory Lobb was really bad - Lobb took 4 marks and kicked 2.2, compared to Joyce not a single catch!! Surely that game marked his card....buy him a one-way ticket back to the Emerald Isle NOW.....

The forthcoming off-season trading and drafts gives St Kilda the opportunity to improve the list - 2 gun midfielders at the very least.

I try very hard to always remain objective when I discuss football with my mates and in my comments on this forum and to remain totally impartial about players and coaches (other than Joyce obviously ) but honestly believe that taking pot shots at Brett Ratten for the way the players performed on Saturday night is grossly unfair and not justified - to paraphrase a common saying in politics about the economy: "It's the players, stupid"!

[Life Long Saint]

We looked a team on rise before the bye.

Now, we look past our best and on brink of needing our third rebuild in the last decade.

How does it keep going so wrong?

Thats easy = Brett Ratten & David Rath.

How did we go from 10th to 4th in 11 weeks?
It was an amazing rise given that we have a coach that clearly can't coach and a fitness advisor that can't keep players fit

[Wayne42]

2 more quality mids would be great but if Joyce is tipped out then more KPD's will need to be drafted, traded or obtained via SSP, preferably not 193cm ones.

A KPF to assist King would be handy as well.

Plenty of clubs need talls so it won't be easy to get them and maybe the Saints List guru's won't bother if they think they have those spots covered already.

They could always scan the SANFL for a couple more seconds players.