St Kilda's Strengths and Weakness

[Sanctorum]

Following is the review of St Kilda's performance in 2023 on AFL.com:

"STRENGTHS: Ross Lyon's arrival has turned the Saints into the best defensive team this season, conceding just 71.6 points a game (No.1) and ranking top four for points conceded both from turnover and clearance. Conceding a goal from just 20 per cent of their opposition's inside 50s was inside the top 10 seasons on record. The Saints love the footy in their hands and recorded the most kicks and the third-most handballs of any side this season. Ball movement was also a strength, generating an inside 50 from 31.7 per cent of their defensive half chains (No.2).

WEAKNESS: St Kilda's weakness has been efficiency, recording just 77.2 points per game (No.15) and scoring from just 39.7 per cent of their inside 50s (No.18). Excluding the shortened matches in 2020, that was the eighth worst score per inside 50 percentage on record."

The return of a miserable 39.7% from entries into the Saints forward 50, the worst in the competition, is an indictment of the team's forward structure. This was not helped by the teams most experienced two key forwards in Max King (11) and Tim Membrey (7) only playing 18 games between them, which, if they have relatively injury free seasons next year, should go a long way to helping the team to move even further up the ladder.

I've said before that on that basis, the continued improvement of Owens, Windhager and Phillipou, combined with the recruitment of Liam Henry and Paddy Dow, a place in the top 4 in 2024 is well within their reach.

Overall St Kilda has ranked quite high in numbers of forward 50 entries in 2023. Which raises questions about the way the ball is delivered into the forward line, which many have stated leaves a lot to be desired, or could certainly be improved, something that Lenny Hayes, as midfield coach, will need to do a lot of work on in the pre-season.

As I see it, supporters have good reason to believe that St Kilda's premiership window, barred shut for so mamy years, is not all that far off opening again.

[B.M]

Chicken or Egg

Delivery or forward capability

[Life Long Saint]

Following is the review of St Kilda's performance in 2023 on AFL.com:

"The return of a miserable 39.7% from entries into the Saints forward 50, the worst in the competition, is an indictment of the team's forward structure. This was not helped by the teams most experienced two key forwards in Max King (11) and Tim Membrey (7) only playing 18 games between them, which, if they have relatively injury free seasons next year, should go a long way to helping the team to move even further up the ladder.

Lazy, lazy, lazy.
Talks about the number and then says it was due to injury.
Take the best two key forwards out of any team and watch them struggle.
How would Brissie have gone without Daniher and Hipwood?
Geelong without Cameron and Hawkins?
GWS without Hogan and Greene?
Richmond without Riewoldt and Lynch?
Carlton without McKay and Curnow?

We saw how Richmond went without Lynch. Geelong struggled early with an unfit/injured Hawkins.

We won the majority of our games without King and Membrey. Our defence was awesome. We saw a glimpse of how good it can be late in the season when they both played.

Let's talk about our real weakness...The lack of class in the midfield.
Where is our Cripps, Bont, Petracca, Neale, De Goey, or Martin?
Crouch and Steele are honest battlers, but we don't have a genuine class clearance midfielder. We were found out against GWS because they had many of them.
We need the youngsters to come on this season. Owens and Philipou need to spend more time on the ball and bring that natural class they have.

[Vortex]

Following is the review of St Kilda's performance in 2023 on AFL.com:

"STRENGTHS: Ross Lyon's arrival has turned the Saints into the best defensive team this season, conceding just 71.6 points a game (No.1) and ranking top four for points conceded both from turnover and clearance. Conceding a goal from just 20 per cent of their opposition's inside 50s was inside the top 10 seasons on record. The Saints love the footy in their hands and recorded the most kicks and the third-most handballs of any side this season. Ball movement was also a strength, generating an inside 50 from 31.7 per cent of their defensive half chains (No.2).

WEAKNESS: St Kilda's weakness has been efficiency, recording just 77.2 points per game (No.15) and scoring from just 39.7 per cent of their inside 50s (No.18). Excluding the shortened matches in 2020, that was the eighth worst score per inside 50 percentage on record."

The return of a miserable 39.7% from entries into the Saints forward 50, the worst in the competition, is an indictment of the team's forward structure. This was not helped by the teams most experienced two key forwards in Max King (11) and Tim Membrey (7) only playing 18 games between them, which, if they have relatively injury free seasons next year, should go a long way to helping the team to move even further up the ladder.

I've said before that on that basis, the continued improvement of Owens, Windhager and Phillipou, combined with the recruitment of Liam Henry and Paddy Dow, a place in the top 4 in 2024 is well within their reach.

Overall St Kilda has ranked quite high in numbers of forward 50 entries in 2023. Which raises questions about the way the ball is delivered into the forward line, which many have stated leaves a lot to be desired, or could certainly be improved, something that Lenny Hayes, as midfield coach, will need to do a lot of work on in the pre-season.

As I see it, supporters have good reason to believe that St Kilda's premiership window, barred shut for so mamy years, is not all that far off opening again.

St Kilda’s greatest weakness = St Kilda


St Kilda’s greatest strength = Brand Loyalty

[shanegrambeau]

Well we had a half-formed full forward, no central forward to take pressure off that guy.

For most of the season ,

I thought Caminiti was a mess to be honest. A cocker spaniel running around the house.

I thought Pou was a liability in that he just didn’t have enough polish and output.

Sharman got the yips with his marking but got nicely into positions

Membrey was a shadow of himself when he played

Higgo was a scrapper but kicked poorly

Butler was consistent effort

We desperately needed a cool and calm head down there

Could have done with Paddy Ryder to be honest but I’ll leave that one. (Apologies).

So I thought trying to get some of those tallish underused half backs forward might have worked. Even Tom Highmore, who sadly was told he was a defender when young and now is consigned to the dustbin ..his marking and reading of the play might have really worked down forward given the decline of Membrey

Out forward line sucked - agreed
Our mids fought really hard and played to their potential, which is not great, but they had a crack.

Our forwards were nothing like the sum of parts.

We have to write off the forward 50 of 2023 as being a sandpit for the kids to play in. Nothing seems to work and when the ball went in I flinched, hoping somehow that a mark would stick, that some nice flow might happen or that someone might kick straight and most of all, the atrocious decision making would take a back seat to sense.

[Yorkeys]

Well we had a half-formed full forward, no central forward to take pressure off that guy.

For most of the season ,

I thought Caminiti was a mess to be honest. A cocker spaniel running around the house.

I thought Pou was a liability in that he just didn’t have enough polish and output.

Sharman got the yips with his marking but got nicely into positions

Membrey was a shadow of himself when he played

Higgo was a scrapper but kicked poorly

Butler was consistent effort

We desperately needed a cool and calm head down there

Could have done with Paddy Ryder to be honest but I’ll leave that one. (Apologies).

So I thought trying to get some of those tallish underused half backs forward might have worked. Even Tom Highmore, who sadly was told he was a defender when young and now is consigned to the dustbin ..his marking and reading of the play might have really worked down forward given the decline of Membrey

Out forward line sucked - agreed
Our mids fought really hard and played to their potential, which is not great, but they had a crack.

Our forwards were nothing like the sum of parts.

We have to write off the forward 50 of 2023 as being a sandpit for the kids to play in. Nothing seems to work and when the ball went in I flinched, hoping somehow that a mark would stick, that some nice flow might happen or that someone might kick straight and most of all, the atrocious decision making would take a back seat to sense.

Gresham wasted a lot of chances. Higgins inaccurate. Butler only became productive in last third of the season and Hammer was a loose cannon. Max injured. Phillipou on job experience.
When there is discussion of the forward line, typically it ignores that we didn't have one as such. More an incoherent collection of players labelled "forwards". Mids were not great but except for second half of second Carlton game they held up their end.

[Big Max]

St Kilda's strength in defense is the main reason for our weakness in the forward line.

That's because the majority of our players, including forwards, are running back into the defensive zone. Clearly we outnumber our opponent (in our defensive zone) and gain possession. We move the ball forward, but alas, we have no forward structure, there are no forwards leading toward the ball carrier. And that's because our forwards are running from the backline.

There were numerous occasions where we simply turned the ball over entering our forward line. And that's because the opposition defenders generally stayed back causing an outnumber.

In my opinion, this is the obvious flaw in Lyon's game plan. My 'armchair solution' is to hold back a couple of forwards in the traditional 'stay at home' forward line who are capable of winning a 'one on one' contest, and have them present a leading target to the ball carrier.

The key to my 'armchair strategy' is to have a couple of forwards actually capable of winning a 'one on one' contest. Perhaps Max King is one, and perhaps Mitch Owens is another, as both are capable in the air and at ground level.

[nostalgicsaint]

St Kilda's strength in defense is the main reason for our weakness in the forward line.

That's because the majority of our players, including forwards, are running back into the defensive zone. Clearly we outnumber our opponent (in our defensive zone) and gain possession. We move the ball forward, but alas, we have no forward structure, there are no forwards leading toward the ball carrier. And that's because our forwards are running from the backline.

There were numerous occasions where we simply turned the ball over entering our forward line. And that's because the opposition defenders generally stayed back causing an outnumber.

In my opinion, this is the obvious flaw in Lyon's game plan. My 'armchair solution' is to hold back a couple of forwards in the traditional 'stay at home' forward line who are capable of winning a 'one on one' contest, and have them present a leading target to the ball carrier.

The key to my 'armchair strategy' is to have a couple of forwards actually capable of winning a 'one on one' contest. Perhaps Max King is one, and perhaps Mitch Owens is another, as both are capable in the air and at ground level.

When the opposition leave extras behind the ball we either go slow or go to the boundary looking for a stoppage where we can reset our structures.

Beyond that.
I think this is where King is most valuable.

Even he is required to push back but he definitely doesn't (hopefully because it isn't expected) get to deep in defence.

Then knowing he is a viable 1 on 1 target and perhaps even 2 on 1 on the boundary we have that option.

[Vortex]

Our greatest weakness is not on the playing field.

Our greatest weakness is as a club and our ability to procure enough depth of list quality to contend, aka destination club.

It’s Lyons greatest challenge because there is too much out of his control with regards to changing the things that need to be changed to make us a destination club.

[Otiman]

Forward structure/movement - this can be fixed in a preseason with a fit and consistent front 6.
Midfield talent - Not as easily fixed, but Windhager, Owens and Philippou must be a core part of the new order. Improvement/fitness of Clark, fitness of Steele, plus the addition of Dow and Henry will help. It's incremental gains in 7 players that will hopefully make a step change in the group.

Our back 6 and running ability remains our strength.

Nas is my smokey for the '24 Brownlow.

[shanegrambeau]

…the majority of our players, including forwards, are running back into the defensive zone….

Mmm
Fair enough
And that explains the mess in the ‘sand pit’ forward line

Good theory
But I do muse

Other teams do all that too

Don’t they?

[desertsaint]

our greatest strength is us. whingers and moaners most, but s***, here we are, after 1 flag in 150 years. champions the lot of us. the club...not so much.
one day.
please?

[Vortex]

our greatest strength is us. whingers and moaners most, but s***, here we are, after 1 flag in 150 years. champions the lot of us. the club...not so much.
one day.
please?

Brand loyalty, aka mug supporters

[Scollop]

our greatest strength is us. whingers and moaners most, but s***, here we are, after 1 flag in 150 years. champions the lot of us. the club...not so much.
one day.
please?

Brand loyalty, aka mug supporters

Thankfully a few supporters with management skills and a few more with footy department skills have put their hand up to play a huge part in the club climbing back up the ladder

I like this;

St Kilda’s greatest weakness = St Kilda

St Kilda’s greatest strength = Brand Loyalty

[Vortex]

our greatest strength is us. whingers and moaners most, but s***, here we are, after 1 flag in 150 years. champions the lot of us. the club...not so much.
one day.
please?

Brand loyalty, aka mug supporters

Thankfully a few supporters with management skills and a few more with footy department skills have put their hand up to play a huge part in the club climbing back up the ladder

I like this;

St Kilda’s greatest weakness = St Kilda

St Kilda’s greatest strength = Brand Loyalty

Brand loyalty is all we got, proof of that was the media presentations produced for our 150 year celebrations.

I sometimes wonder if winning another flag could kill the magical mystique that attracts so many of us to cling to the club like we do.

[Yorkeys]

Defence
Offence
But that's so last season.

[SinCitySainter]

I believe our biggest weakness is we have a coach who will always sacrifice attack for defence. Our game plan is to flood back in order to stifle the opportunities for the opposition. Other teams also flood back but not with the same numbers as we do. This means that when we get the ball we have to go wide and slow the game while a forward tries to get into a position to present. The opposition always leave a couple back so our forwards are always outnumbered. Ross's plan is then to create a contest 25 to 30 out in front of the goals. This is why the intercept half backs have a field day against us, we play to their strengths not ours.

This is the exact same game plan he had last time he was with us but then he had elite talent at his disposal. Bombing to 25 out can work when you have one of the greatest marking forwards ever in Nick R with possibly one of the best opportunistic small forwards in Milne at his feet.

Just look at who he has targeted to bring into the club this trade period, Dow and Henry, speed and workrate over skills. Both will be undropable this year as they were his choices and his ego will not countenance the idea that he could have made a mistake. He got rid of Billings because he doesn't rate skill only effort.

Now, obviously I am not a Ross fan and when we brought him back I was very disappointed. However, I was ready to give him a chance as all the talk was that as a coach he has changed and he would have a more attacking mindset. I think the game plan last season proved that that was completely incorrect he is still dour Ross and we are the hardest side to watch in the competition.

[shanegrambeau]

.... Our game plan is to flood back.... Other teams also flood back but not with the same numbers as we do. This means that when we get the ball we have to go wide and slow the game while a forward tries to get into a position to present. The opposition always leave a couple back so our forwards are always outnumbered. Ross's plan is then to create a contest 25 to 30 out in front of the goals. This is why the intercept half backs have a field day against us, we play to their strengths not ours.

...This is the exact same game plan he had last time...(but we had) Nick R.. Milne at his feet.

...Dow and Henry, speed and workrate over skills. Both will be undropable this year....

good points. But really? Do players like Sharman run back into defence?

But I don't know but it sounds fair enough. Looking at distances run and heatmaps would sort it out, which they no doubt do in their sleeps.

So we need super athletes to bolt back and set up and hold a grab..and then Hhiggo and Butts to run with them. Looks like basketball.

Rex Hunt, Plugger types...lol NOT

Wood ? Hayes? DMac? (but all three are injury prone)

Maybe we also recognize the boundary line as a friend given we are out numbered or exhausted in the corridor?

becuase if they are leaving defenders back, those defenders can then flood down the corridor on the counter punch, like the tide goes through the Rip at Port Philip heads?

Stretching my genius here...concede

[Sanctorum]

Gauged on some of the comments you would think St Kilda either stalled or went backward in 2023, that the wheels on the Saints bus are likely to fall off.

I agree that the jury is still out on giving a vedict on Ross Lyon Mk III, but let's wait and see how 2024 pans out before making any judgments on his performance.

For example, was it really all that surprising that Jack Billings left the club?

If he was still "old Ross" would he have stuck with promoting the young fellas, like play Mattaeus Phillipou in all 24 games?

I don't go along with those who claim Lyon overbears his three assistant coaches in the selection of teams or game plans, in fact he has regularly praised them for their significant contributions in these aspects.

My money's on an even better result next year.

But that's just my opinion, others will disagree and that's everyone's prerogative....

[Scollop]

Just putting it out there...

Scollop and SinCitySainter are not the same person

Scollop and Big Max, also not the same poster



I applaud you both for your courage to suggest Ross has flaws in team selection and in the game plan.

I recommend you don't repeat your thoughts too often... otherwise, hope you have a thick hide and get prepared for some relentless attacks and people trying to discredit your opinions



It's tough work barracking for the Saints. In the end, we all just support the team...and the coaches....

And hope for the best

I think 2023 was a fantastic year for Saints supporters and a successful year. I think it gives Ross the licence to have a down year. I hope he has the courage to not be afraid of losses.

I hope he provides multiple opportunities to young draftees (i.e consecutive games and not a one off like he did with Peris). I hope we continue to see debut games from Moose, Keeler, Van Es, Hotton and new draftees who can show that they can match it on the track against their peers.

[B.M]

Stats from Lyon say we are one of the best teams for taking the ball from the back half to the front half.

Our issue is turning i50s into scores

Either through midfield delivery or forward capability

We are the best team defence team in the AFL and the worst offensive team

[samoht]

We struggle kicking goals, and we're still bombing it into our F50.
And the ball leaves our F50 too easily.

Same old, same old.

We know where the probably lies, and our two previous coaches also knew, but we still can't do anything about it.

Players like Sicily and May love playing against us.
We're making it too easy for them.

[The_Dud]

It’s not hard to see that bombing long inside 50 has been engrained in every St Kilda player over the last decade, looking for and then hitting a forward on the lead is like hens teeth.

Having very average ball users in the midfield just compounds the issue.

[Vortex]

Stats from Lyon say we are one of the best teams for taking the ball from the back half to the front half.

Our issue is turning i50s into scores

Either through midfield delivery or forward capability

We are the best team defence team in the AFL and the worst offensive team

Isn't Ross on the record as confirming our game plan is to score from the transition and not from stoppages?

Has he created that plan to suit our strengths and weaknesses?

[samoht]

Our recruiting/drafting is our main issue ... apart from the obvious blunders (petracca), even James Worpel at pick 45 vs Clark pick 7.

We banked on Clark eventually having the higher ceiling, but Worpel has been the better player from the word go, year after year, and Clark hasn't bridged the gap.

We need to poach the best recruiters.