The Blame game

[older saint]

Disappointment and passion often are not a good mix. St.kilda supporters are experts at this mixture and nothing good comes of it.

To me as I said post the Hawthorn loss we just are not as good as people believe and again it showed last night. Blaming the coach is the easy thing to do and look how that has worked over 150 years . Clubs Like Geelong and Richmond stuck fat in recent years and now have silverware. We currently lack confidence also which is not a good combination.

From last night it is not unreasonable to say that the following players are not in the best 22 of a finals side:
Bonner, Sharman, Paton, Jones, Phillipou, Collard, - that is a quarter of the side.
Collard and Poo are young developing players but the others are top up players at best.

End of season I can see Jones, Paton, Sharman gone, Otten, Alllison may be in trouble also but neither really effect the senior side .
Add the first 3 to what was gone last year - Coffield, Hannebry, Bytel, Gresham, Billings, McKenzie, will see 9 senior type players change in 2 years.
Things take time to get the list to where it needs to be.
Add a likely top 5 pick this season and the FA cash and then by 2026 the list should have the shape it requires to be finals standard.

B: Stocker, Howard, Wilkie,
HB: Nas , Battle, Sinclair
reality is Howard the main question mark of this group

HF: Owens, Camaniti?, Phillipou, Henry,
F: Higgins, King, Butler?, Garcia?, collard?

C: Hill, Steele, Wilson, Marshall, Clarke?, Dow? Windy,

Gone by 2026 - Crouch, Ross, Webster, Campbell, membrey, Wood,

The obvious hole is through the midfield - Top pick next 2 years and FA need to be mids - LDU, McCluggage, Reid , whoever as this is the major hole we have.
I honestly see 3-4 more wins at best this year, top 5 pick and games into players we want to keep - always based on form.

[Scollop]

......we just are not as good as people believe and again it showed last night. Blaming the coach is the easy thing to do and look how that has worked over 150 years . Clubs Like Geelong and Richmond stuck fat in recent years and now have silverware. We currently lack confidence also which is not a good combination.

Your thread title implies there shouldn't be blame directed in only one area...and yet you suggest that the players 'are not as good as people believe'

Isn't that pointing the finger in one direction and absolving the coach?

You're contradicting yourself again with your last sentence.

I can handle losses. I just can't handle coaches not taking ownership and not sharing in accountability and responsibility for our losses

[older saint]

......we just are not as good as people believe and again it showed last night. Blaming the coach is the easy thing to do and look how that has worked over 150 years . Clubs Like Geelong and Richmond stuck fat in recent years and now have silverware. We currently lack confidence also which is not a good combination.

Your thread title implies there shouldn't be blame directed in only one area...and yet you suggest that the players 'are not as good as people believe'

Isn't that pointing the finger in one direction and absolving the coach?

You're contradicting yourself again with your last sentence.

I can handle losses. I just can't handle coaches not taking ownership and not sharing in accountability and responsibility for our losses

Coaching is part of this in regard to playing with what you have and confidence and they must take some responsibility for things, however the foot skills of players kicking the ball in the last 2 weeks which has cost us games is on the players who aren't of top 8 AFL standards IMO.

After a loss everything is reviewed but how many coaches do you see at a press conference go it was on me , not many as that loses condfidence internally and externally if that happens a lot.

I just think there are a lot of RL haters out there, last year it was out young players and how good they are, this year its coaching and game style, by some not all.

[Scollop]

I just think there are a lot of Ross Lyon lovers out there

You're blinded by your love

[Scollop]

A good coach always take responsibility for losses

Talk about other issues. Talk about errors. Talk about misfortune, but share the blame.

Take ownership

[Sanctorum]

I just think there are a lot of Ross Lyon lovers out there

You're blinded by your love

Can't the same be said about Ross Lyon haters??

You're blinded by your hate

[Scollop]

I just think there are a lot of Ross Lyon lovers out there

You're blinded by your love

Can't the same be said about Ross Lyon haters??

You're blinded by your hate

I wouldn't have used that phrase but just wanted to show how ridiculous it is for people to constantly use the term 'Ross Lyon haters'.

I can understand if they want to defend decisions made but they just want to shut down any sort of criticism or any sort of discussion about the coach

I'm sick to death of people making excuses for our style of play and low scores and game plan, and just apportioning blame on the players

[Sanctorum]

Gone by 2026 - Crouch, Ross, Webster, Campbell, membrey, Wood,

You can add Zak Jones to that list "os", maybe Dougal Howard who I expect will be surpassed by Arie Schoenmaker.

Question marks also about Matthew Allison, Ryan Byrnes, Brad Hill (same age as Wood) and possibly Jack Hayes, Dan Butler, Zaine Cordy, Ben Paton, none of whom will ever be more than FAQ players, by which I mean they are not best 23...

Either way, there will be massive list changes happening in the next 2 years

[SAINT-LEE]

Gone by 2026 - Crouch, Ross, Webster, Campbell, membrey, Wood,

You can add Zak Jones to that list "os", maybe Dougal Howard who I expect will be surpassed by Arie Schoenmaker.

Question marks also about Matthew Allison, Ryan Byrnes, Brad Hill (same age as Wood) and possibly Jack Hayes, Dan Butler, Zaine Cordy, Ben Paton, none of whom will ever be more than FAQ players, by which I mean they are not best 23...

Either way, there will be massive list changes happening in the next 2 years

Have you watched any vfl this year? A few lads are starting to catch on, still emerging a bit though. Today Allison kicked 5 and looked very good.

[Teflon]

I just think there are a lot of Ross Lyon lovers out there

You're blinded by your love

Can't the same be said about Ross Lyon haters??

You're blinded by your hate

Spot on
It’s incredible
I defy anyone to suggest Ross Lyon is instructing these guys to turn it over from kick in, kick OOF 3 times, handball to stationary players about to be tackled, drop chest marks , miss goals from 20 out…OR he’s told them …”guys can we please only kick 8 goals this week??”
That’s not coaching directions..that’s a lack of on field leadership, skill and execution
Lyon didn’t and has previously put his hand up and said when coaches haven’t gotten it right
Right now he’s very firmly aware he does not have the talent and zero midfield
So why is that ??
You can go back and ask Alan Richardson and Brett Ratten those questions along with Trout and Lethlean
While we were busy bringing in Brad Hill …Melb used our eventual pick 12 to grab Kosi Pickett while Freo upgraded to Serong
Sliding doors….but we now pay the price of a decade of midfield neglect in draft
Sad news?? Gonna take multiple drafts to correct it …Lyon won’t be our next flag coach but let’s hope he keeps playing kids to set us up for it

[Otiman]

The same list didn't have these talent issues sitting top 4 last year.

Building a premiership side is often like turning the titanic, but poor Ross seems to be steering it towards a bigger iceberg.

[saintkev]

I’m watching the Eagles and Melbourne game. I can’t see us getting within cooee of both these sides. Superb endeavour, speed, hardness and commitment from both sides. It’s much better than the agony of watching the Saints playing predictable, plodding, boring, dumb football.

[Scollop]

The same list didn't have these talent issues sitting top 4 last year.

Building a premiership side is often like turning the titanic, but poor Ross seems to be steering it towards a bigger iceberg.

A poster who is usually positive and who I rate on this forum

I'd like to say the game plan sucks, but to be honest I just don't understand the game plan.

Am I stupid? Do the players understand the plan or are they too dumb?

Serious question; can anybody please describe the actual game plan?

The next question is: Is there a plan B?

And is the game plan actually a robust and feasible plan or is it an un-executable thesis from a bygone era?

Don't expect any replies Big Max...except maybe if you post your opinions often enough you'll be called a 'Ross Lyon hater'

It kind of adds to the Ross Lyon legend. He's made out to be so great, that anyone who doesn't believe that he is great must be a hater. Criticism is shut down that way.

Just shows how out of touch our match committee is
Could have left Pou in for another week, let him pick 20+ in the midfield and watch his confidence soar.
Instead, we crush his confidence by playing him when he is down on confidence and not ready .

Zed is another poster who I rate. Doesn't post much, but usually calls a spade a spade.

Last year when Pou was struggling for form ...many of us thought it would be a good idea to rest him or play Mattaes at VFL level.

Couple of things might have happened if Pou was dropped and Billings replaced him. Billings might have done something and increased his trade value...but more importantly, we could have had Pou playing better footy at the back end of last year. Also might have helped his confidence leading into this year.

When Ross Lyon finally realises in Rnd 9 that Mattaes needs to go back...to a lower level...he changes his mind in Rnd 10 and does a backflip. That's not consistent.

I hope Mattaes now stays in the team for at least another week or 2. I personally don't agree with dropping a player after 1 bad game. Especially these young guys.

If we are serious about player development being paramount, then selection against Melbourne needs to take into account that Sharman, Collard and Pou can't be used every 2nd week as scapegoats.

Instead of people recognising that you can harm a players confidence, people want to call you a 'Ross Lyon hater'.

[repta]

Pou needs to be managed. A clear development pathway.
He is only 19. He needs a plan to develop.
Eg. One of the ways Steele (and now Wingy) were developed was by making them taggers. Follow the best around, learn where the ball is going to be. Win some one on one contests. Learn the game.
Pou is a child hurdled into the centre and expected to battle it out with adults. He is not big and strong enough to extract the ball against the beasts. He needs to learn the craft.
It is not this year and maybe not next. He needs a plan for where he will play in 2026 and beyond. Then the development team need to ensure his knowledge and confidence are built around that goal.
Stumbling on 4 possessions for 86% game time is no good for any player. I believe the goal posts had more touches than Pou on the weekend.
It has been sign posted for a long period. At the start of the season he was outstanding in 'pressure points', which just meant he was second to the ball. Now he isnt getting near the ball.

[older saint]

Gone by 2026 - Crouch, Ross, Webster, Campbell, membrey, Wood,

You can add Zak Jones to that list "os", maybe Dougal Howard who I expect will be surpassed by Arie Schoenmaker.

Question marks also about Matthew Allison, Ryan Byrnes, Brad Hill (same age as Wood) and possibly Jack Hayes, Dan Butler, Zaine Cordy, Ben Paton, none of whom will ever be more than FAQ players, by which I mean they are not best 23...

Either way, there will be massive list changes happening in the next 2 years

Absolutely Jones, bad miss there.

The issue is you need depth players -players who can come in and fill a role between 23-28 on the list. That is where your Cordy. Butler, Hayes, Byrnes fit - must retain some.
I read somewhere HIll is looking a 3 year deal to finish it off. HAs generally been very fit and an outsiode player so that is possible.
Wood could also be there and seems to have the ability to fill a Tom Campbell type role and eventually development coach with what he has already done with some of the young guys. Been a great pick up

[spert]

Ok, we can use a lot more class in our team- like most teams, but we are playing a terrible style of football as a TEAM. We can point the finger at a few player's form, but what I see is a team who are not working together, lost confidence, look confused, and you don't necessarily need elite skills to work together in a team. The poor results this season lies fair and square at the feet of Lyon as head coach.

Lyon's continual fiddling with swinging players around is unsettling the team- just seems like someone who want's everything to work immediately, or it's out you go...desperate coaching.

We would do better to leave players to settle in a position..Sharman should be played deep forward and left there for four or five games, as he has goal sense and smarts in a team which has few, but instead he is up on a wing, down back, back to the forward..no wonder the bugger can't get settled and get enough of the ball. Bringing Collard and Jones in on a poor performance in the VFL was rubbish, as was bringing Pou back. Caminiti deserved a recall as did Sharman, and they need to stay in the seniors for the rest of the season. Garcia needed be played on the ball, not in the forward half and got dropped...everything Lyon is doing, is unsettling the team and this causes all the dropping of marks, stupid decisions, fumbling and headless chicken play.

What an unnecessary situation for our club to be in.

[Vortex]

..Sharman should be played deep forward and left there for four or five games

surely that opportunity has been given in spades, he's just not up to AFL standard.

[spert]

..Sharman should be played deep forward and left there for four or five games

surely that opportunity has been given in spades, he's just not up to AFL standard.

A handful of times at best, until he had been moved up the ground to play in other positions in most matches.

[Scollop]

..Sharman should be played deep forward and left there for four or five games

surely that opportunity has been given in spades, he's just not up to AFL standard.

He stood up in a final last year and played a reasonably good game. What other AFL standard are you conjuring up?

Obviously, you are still trying to justify your premature call on him.

spert is talking about the results of consistency. Sharman was played in the team for about 6 or 7 games in a row before that Elimination Final. You can't expect him to perform with the current yo-yo strategy. It's not fair on the whole team really

[Vortex]

..Sharman should be played deep forward and left there for four or five games

surely that opportunity has been given in spades, he's just not up to AFL standard.

A handful of times at best, until he had been moved up the ground to play in other positions in most matches.

Yeah I'm not sure that's exactly representative of how it's panned out, his ample time in the forward line, especially this season has produced some very average performances in the forward line.

[Otiman]

It's a bit of the chicken or egg scenario with Sharman.

He's been no good up forward so we've moved him up the ground to work defensively, so he's been no good up forward.

IMO his best work this year has been behind the ball.

Expected to step up when King was absent (3 games this year) and didn't.

The caveat is that our whole forwardline has been underperforming this year. Sha(r)man isn't a lone wolf and I think escapes the criticism.

In the same boat as:
Membrey - dropped
King - under the pump
Owens (2024's breakout game on the weekend)
Caminiti - in and out of the 2's

[saynta]

Ok, we can use a lot more class in our team- like most teams, but we are playing a terrible style of football as a TEAM. We can point the finger at a few player's form, but what I see is a team who are not working together, lost confidence, look confused, and you don't necessarily need elite skills to work together in a team. The poor results this season lies fair and square at the feet of Lyon as head coach.

Lyon's continual fiddling with swinging players around is unsettling the team- just seems like someone who want's everything to work immediately, or it's out you go...desperate coaching.

We would do better to leave players to settle in a position..Sharman should be played deep forward and left there for four or five games, as he has goal sense and smarts in a team which has few, but instead he is up on a wing, down back, back to the forward..no wonder the bugger can't get settled and get enough of the ball. Bringing Collard and Jones in on a poor performance in the VFL was rubbish, as was bringing Pou back. Caminiti deserved a recall as did Sharman, and they need to stay in the seniors for the rest of the season. Garcia needed be played on the ball, not in the forward half and got dropped...everything Lyon is doing, is unsettling the team and this causes all the dropping of marks, stupid decisions, fumbling and headless chicken play.

What an unnecessary situation for our club to be in.

Good,sensible, well thought out post.

[Scollop]

Instead of looking to improve our player development and instead of looking towards our coaches to get the best out of the existing talent we have, we are once again (under current regime) looking to blame the players

If the footy journos (including Montagna) want to continuously blame our woes on the playing list, where does it end? Are we going to keep trying to churn them over instead of trying to get the best out of what we’ve got. That’s a recipe for failure imo.

Blake Acres is a good footballer. Ben Long is a good footballer.

Reckon we should learn from getting rid of those two. I think they were never valued enough. I reckon their development at St Kilda was poor. We threw them around in different roles and never let them settle in one position.

[The Fireman]

Sharman is obviously a good footballer

keeper

[takeaway]

Instead of looking to improve our player development and instead of looking towards our coaches to get the best out of the existing talent we have, we are once again (under current regime) looking to blame the players

If the footy journos (including Montagna) want to continuously blame our woes on the playing list, where does it end? Are we going to keep trying to churn them over instead of trying to get the best out of what we’ve got. That’s a recipe for failure imo.

Blake Acres is a good footballer. Ben Long is a good footballer.

Reckon we should learn from getting rid of those two. I think they were never valued enough. I reckon their development at St Kilda was poor. We threw them around in different roles and never let them settle in one position.

Nah. Acres has played his most consistent football at Carlton, nothing really spectacular, and was only OK at Freo. Took a long time to mature, getting close to 30 now. For Saints, he clinched the Hill deal, and Hill has been very good at Saints. Long is an OK footballer, but only for a few games a year, not consistent. Fringe player. No real loss for Saints.

I would do the two deals again, no hesitation. So nothing much to learn.