What has happened to the development of......

[fugazi]

This is why Sam Gilbert sticks out like a sore thumb as a young recruit who has actually developed into a really good player....

he should be among a group of 5 or 6 good young players instead of being a lone soldier....

have a look at the development of West Coast...(or even Collingwood, Brisbane and Port...)....they seemed to be introducing another young gun every month or so...they have so much midfield depth because of this good development.

Most dissapointed in Mini who was a better player in his first year then he appears now...I remember thinking we had another Burkie when i first saw him.

[rexy]

The interesting thing to mind is that I thought GTs biggest downfall was the continous selection of Blake, Thommo, Powell, Pecket, Fiora etc last year over the younger guys. In particular Fergusson and Mini however under the new administration the same names are basically going around, Blake hasnt missed a game or Fiora. Thommo has had a crack at least 50% of games and has been a revolving door with X Harvey and balls injuries. Mini Armo and Raph have had short goes at it and Fergusson still no games?

The question is then is it poor selection or do these guys not do enough to sell themselves as ready for senior footy? I dont feel like Ross Lyon has changed anything really, he has introduced 2 or 3 hard tags a week and accountability which has seen us reduce our points scored dramatically but end up in the same boat as last year. Hoping to scrape into finals.

Dont know that GT was the man for the job, but not sure that RL using this game plan is going to prove the right formula either. We have built a list around forwards, surely our game plan must suit that strength?

[Winmarvellous]

Let's not forget Watts and Brooks were both at other clubs before joining the Saints, so we aren't the only club to get nothing out of them (I think, I've been drinking so excuse me if I'm wrong). Our talls aren't the problem at the moment, so even if they can play, they just jumped on the wrong boat. Look at WC midfield. They put each other under pressure, whereas our forwards are considered guns (G & Roo). Maybe there is room for a third option, but Ross prefers little tackilers to keep the ball in, so I think both have lost their chance (although Watts will be kept),

[Spinner]

Great Post st.mart!!!!


But i really do think people need to relax. We have been a finals team for the last 3 years. That always means that there are going to be less opportunities for younger guys to strut their stuff.


Timing is everything. All of the above would be senior players at Carlton by now....But it just works differently while any club is successful.


There is talent there. No doubt. Hopefully we hold our nerve and these blokes have long lasting careers!!

[BAM! (shhhh)]

This is why Sam Gilbert sticks out like a sore thumb as a young recruit who has actually developed into a really good player....

he should be among a group of 5 or 6 good young players instead of being a lone soldier....

Perhaps he seems a lone soldier because he hasn't been around very long and is now a regular...

BUT

This year has also seen the rise of Leigh Montagna from 2nd tier player to core player (a prime example of patient development), and the development of Jayden Attard from reclamation to regular if unspectacular player.

Last year saw a similar rise from Brendan Goddard, saw Sam Fisher back up a strong finish to 2005 by cementing a spot as a rebounding machine, and saw the return of Leigh Fisher to back up GTs assessment that he'd been a "best 22" calibre player in spite of injuries.

2007 has also seen the blooding of Armitage (might be nice to have more than 3 games, but if the skills aren't there, throwing an 18 year old body to the wolves can do as much harm as good - look at Kennedy for Carlton, who has good - but not elite - skills, and plays intimidated. One could argue that Armitage is well placed to be another Gilbert.), significant game time for Gwilt, and Birss, and 5 games for overage rookie Clinton Jones. 2 games for Howard, 1 for Sweeney.

Factor in as well that the Saints have gotten 15 games from X and 17 from Kosi, who they haven't been able to regularly put on the park for a while, and this year has seen some significant list development.

We may not be blooding 30 possession midfielders ala West Coast, but lets keep in mind that Rosa is a 3rd year player, and not the overnight success he may seem. Priddis is a 22 year old rookie. Without taking away from either being excellent finds, both are playing at Subi sourounded by silk, a possession paradise. More importantly: they have not clearly made the Eagles being a stronger team this year.

[evertonfc]

Great post marto, but I believe we will see none of those players delisted or traded - unless an overly generous deal comes along.

They need huge pre-seasons, all of them, in 2008.

Besides Armitage, it could be make or break for all of them.

[Zed]

IMHO ..

Brooks - one thing they never tested for was heart. If they had, we never would have drafted him. Undeniably has talent but will never blossom at AFL level. Probably gets another year under RL because M Clarke wont go on, Rix is the opposite of Brooks (big heart but no talent) and Gardner is too injury prone. He could be another option for FF after Frase goes. How many years did Tim Elliott spend on the list before he got cut ? .. big guys get given opportunities that others dont. No wonder RL is losing his hair.

Ferguson - cruelled by injury - cant see him breaking into lineup next year either. Not tall enough to be a tall, not quick enough to be a small. Let him go.

Raph: worth a punt under the new fitness regime - has talent. GT clealry never got the right fitness team or regime in place (for whatever reason). Keep.

Watts - is he our FF after Frase ? Seems like he can take a mark and kick a goal, may blossom given game time at FF and an injury free run.

McQualter - Get super fit or get out. Needs to take a leaf out of Baker's book.

Armo - too early to call ..(what did Gilbo do in his first year ?). Lets see what he fronts up like in Round 1 next year - plenty of room in our midfield rotations for him if he gets himself fit.

[saintsRrising]

Well the new "thinner" and more "willing to adopt the coaches given roles" Mini is now thriving once again. Once not too kken on tagging...he is now doing well in that role when given the challenge. He shut down Mitchell beautifully.

Our less muscle bound players can now run out games and overun opposition teams with strong finishes....and yes the once pleantiful hammys are now a lot lot less frequent.

[Solar]

That is my point with Ferg, Solar.......he is 2 inches and 10kg lighter than those players, why would he be a back up to them - he is set up to fail (like the prelim in 2005, playing on McGregor)......he is not getting a game as a key back, because he is not a Key Back.......

He should be a back up to (or in front of) L.Fisher, X, Raph, Voss, Goddard, Blake....as a medium utility....played on players a similar size or smaller, his marking would be a bonus, rather than basis of his game...

really interesting subject to look over now

mini has rebuilt his career and is the big success right now. Has learnt how to run with and stop players now. Might never be in the class of a top form baker as a stopper but has the ability to hurt on the rebound.

we have had a great habit of destroying careers by playing players out of position but perhaps the mini story puts a different bent to this. Perhaps fergi never got a chance down forward not only because of the situation of our huge amount of key forwards but his lack of finishing. Had a chance to nail a HF lead up role and missed too many goals. That might be it.

Raph and X seem to just not have their heats in it right now. Have all the talent in the world but need to head back home and be with their family.

just looking at a similar list nearing august a year later

(brooks, watts already gone)

So of the earlier list, mini and armo are starting to become dependable first 22 players.

So I would change that list to, where are these players at:

1) Fergusson. Had some early season form down forward against weaker VFL teams. Came in against melbourne but missed too many chances. If he had not dropped his head and continued this form in the VFL he would have a spot by now. Will get the chop, shame because he could have been a beauty. The arguement will always be that he was 3-4 inches too short for this level.

2) raph clarke. I was happy with his early season form, showed that he could use his body well in important contests and wanted to run the lines to create (this was in a team that was scared to run and create at the time). Perhaps was a scape goat at the time because of a few bad errors that ended up costing a game. Since his fathers illness he just doesn't look like he wants to be out there from the reports. Postitives are that he continues to play and keep his body in good condition. Next year is make or break for the kid. Might be better for club and player to be traded.

3) L.Fisher. Lost a yard of pace, well the game has gained a yard and poor leigh was never a racehorse. Shame because he was such a good news story gettng drafted like he did and then coming back from a career ending hamstring. Will make a good career in the SAFL.

4) Rix. Suprised his name got bought up this week, is a good honest VFL standard ruckman. Gave good service but these days you need a ruckman that can create goals from either their taps or around the ground works.

5.) baker. Knee and suspensions mean that we might never see the best of baker again. Depending on how his knee goes in the next month and how attard comes along a decision might need to be made. ? mark over his head.

6) A week ago I would have had fizz in here. Thought his career was gone. Has done what the likes of fergi has not done, that is lift again and make a statement in the lower levels. Could still make the cut.

7) Howard. Personally I think is development has been good at the lower level and the club sees him as a longer term developing player. The fact that geary, eddy and CJ have developed so quickly means that we could afford to keep developing him for the rest of the year. But if he doesn't crack eniors by half way through next year the pressure on his spot will me massive.

8) gwilt. Started to show good things before his brain fades against the blues. Will be an interesting next 6 weeks to see if he can make a come back again. Spot open in the backline, which would release BJ. Gwilt needs to demand that spot again.

9) charlie gardiner. Was given a one year contract. Will be interesting to see if he gets a game this week with kosi out. If not he might struggle to get another contract. Is in front of fergi currently and survives the cut IMO

My guesses for who will be cut

Harvey (retired, thanks banger)
Gehrig (retired)
fergi
leigh fisher
rix

one from left field
baker retires or delisting of attard

trades
raph
fish
baker

[WinnersOnly]

Why cant we try Charlie across the HBF ? Why has he been pidgeon holed as a forward only. He strikes me as the sort of player who would fluriush playing the GODDARD role down back....

[Ralphy]

hope we retain charlie at the end of the year deserves a go,
#6 Leigh Fisher = end of 2008
trade
or delist,
#30 Brad Howard = end of 2008 keep on the list,

#33 James Gwilt = end of 2008 Yes, like him
#38 Clinton Jones = end of 2008 Keep

[BallBanger]

hope we retain charlie at the end of the year deserves a go,
#33 James Gwilt = end of 2008 Yes, like him

Why, what has he done since prelim in Adelaide?

We are going nowhere if we don't turn over these average types

[Goose is king]

I like Gwilt too. Made it the tough way and still learning. Great athlete and I think will take big steps in short time.

[Solar]

Why cant we try Charlie across the HBF ? Why has he been pidgeon holed as a forward only. He strikes me as the sort of player who would fluriush playing the GODDARD role down back....

doesn't seem to be the creative type. His biggest strength is his ability to gut run to lead into space. Thus he is able to get into space and take easy marks. But doesn't have the creative flair to be able to make more of it and his kicking for goal is terrible.

[Otiman]

Gwilt may have to go at seasons end. We NEED the space.

For example, even if Harvey and Gehrig retire, we need 3 spots on the list for national draft players, and probably 2 for elevated rookies in McQualter and Eddy. More if we want to keep Attard and Miles by elevating them. I don't know if Miles is eligible for a 2 year rookie spot.

Out: Harvey, Gehrig, and three from (Rix, Gwilt, Fisher, Ferguson, C. Gardiner)

In: Round 1, Round 2, Round 3, Eddy, McQualter

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Gwilt may have to go at seasons end. We NEED the space.

For example, even if Harvey and Gehrig retire, we need 3 spots on the list for national draft players, and probably 2 for elevated rookies in McQualter and Eddy. More if we want to keep Attard and Miles by elevating them. I don't know if Miles is eligible for a 2 year rookie spot.

Out: Harvey, Gehrig, and three from (Rix, Gwilt, Fisher, Ferguson, C. Gardiner)

In: Round 1, Round 2, Round 3, Eddy, McQualter

Still think Fiora's career is all but done with St Kilda. He has another year on his contract though, so maybe one more year.

If he finishes the year strongly and has a good finals campaign, he may be able to get a chance elsewhere, either via PSD, or (if we're lucky) for a low draft pick. Leigh Fisher may be in the same boat, though the injury status of Baker may save him another year as Attard will spend another year on the rookie list, and I'd guess we'd be expecting Mini to develop beyond the pure tagging at some stage.

Gwilt I would guess is safe for the time being as the insurance policy on our key defenders to get him through this offseason. Gardiner, Ferguson and Rix would all have much more to worry about.

The other one I wonder about is Michael Gardiner. He's played 8 of 16 so far, and is questionable for this week.

[saintsRrising]

and is questionable for this week.

Though we assume is fit enough to play since he is in Perth, even if he does not make the final 22.

With him and King both having stayed a bit injury prone I would very much want to keep both on the list next year, and indeed the year after two.

With Gardi I would have hopes that next year he would be less injury effected as he now has both foot operations out of the way.


Also I think ruckman ted to be an injury prone lot anyway...so you want more than two.

So till the end of 2010 I think it is good to have on the books..:

King, Gardi and Ben

with Kosi and Blake to play cameos/ No2..

By 2011 hopefully Ben will be hitting his straps witha mature body.

[Otiman]

Noted that Gwilt was not a part of the 26 sent over to Perth. Could be curtains for his career.

[skeptic]

i'd hang onto Gwilt

would lose Rix, Fiora and Ferguson (on top of Harvey and Gehrig)

off the record I'd really shop X around and would snap up a 2nd rounder if I could get one (Gold Coast any1)

so 5-6 players out

onto the senior list comes Eddy, McQualter and Miles

that leaves us room to draft 3

pbly spells the end of Luke V'R too

[Otiman]

onto the senior list comes Eddy, McQualter and Miles

While I like Miles, I think perhaps his interrupted '08 may keep him from gaining a spot on our list. Would play a half back role perfectly, and could probably be the best medium defender in the comp.

[plugger66]

onto the senior list comes Eddy, McQualter and Miles

While I like Miles, I think perhaps his interrupted '08 may keep him from gaining a spot on our list. Would play a half back role perfectly, and could probably be the best medium defender in the comp.

Based on what? One practice games and 2 reserves games. By the way did you see those games? Talk about rose coloured glasses could probably be the best medium defender in the comp.

[Solar]

oh no I agree with plugger66...

He can sit on the rookie list for another year, yes the coach rates him and thus he will get a second year.

fizz will survive through a contract next year. Next 6 weeks will see how he is looked at going into '09

[Animal Enclosure]

You would have to think that Ferg's time is up.... pity that his body never allowed him to have a real crack at it but it's a brutal game, no room for sentiment.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rixy is kept as insurance (unless another ruckman is traded for). King & Gardiner have been great when they're on the ground but are a week to week proposition injury wise & Big Mac is at least 2 years away from being thrown the No.1 ruck spot. Obviously Rixy is under significant pressure despite his outstanding form at Casey (he's not just a good VFL player but a dominant one... there's been a fair few of them that couldn't make the step up though).

Leigh Fisher has been superseeded by Dempster, Eddy, Jones & the like. Another great clubman but his time may be up.

I know that they look on Howard as a project but a tough decision may have to be made on whether he will make the grade. He's vying for a spot that is probably our strong point (HBF/3rd string midfield rotation) & will have to be evaluated come draft time if we pick up a Jack Ziebell or similar type at the national draft.

Gwilt? Hard to say, he's obviously now depth at full back & we don't have much else there. Once again, if Michael Hurley falls into our laps on draft day then maybe it is time for the Fro to Go.

I would get rid of Fiora & eat the last year of his contract... talk about chances & output. I'd rather see Brad Howard get some games to see if he can cut it.

Out- Banger & G (retired), L.Fisher, Fiora, Ferguson, Gwilt or Rix.
In- McQualter, Eddy, 4 draft picks.

I would be surprised to see some action re: trade time this year. Focus on the National & Rookie drafts.

[saintbob]

GONE
Gwilt
Rix
L Fisher
Ferguson
Gehrig - Retired
Harvey - Retired (sadly)

MAYBE'S
McQualter
R Clarke
Baker

ELEVATE ROOKIES
Jones
Eddy

Definetly leaves a lot a holes in the list, none bigger than the one left by the "Great Man", but all of the above have had more than enough time in the system.
Will be our last chance for a couple of years to have a real crack at the draft as the following one will be heavily depleted by the inclusion of GC17.

It will also free up some room in the salary cap and we could have a crack at getting Daniel Kerr or maybe, dare I say it , a clean and rejuvenated Ben Cousins.

[Animal Enclosure]

A crack at Kerr...yes
Cousins....no

Rejuvenate through the draft should be priority no. 1