How many elites do the Saints have???

[BAM! (shhhh)]

We only have one current elilte player on our list - Roo

Some people here are confusing potential or past form with elite.

Herein lies the rub. I'd look at it conversely and say many are confusing either current form or a seasons results with being an elite talent.

If the elite's the top 5%, or the best 30 players in the league, in any one season you'll have 10 no brainers, a group of subjectives, and about 70 coulda woulda shoulda types. From there it becomes harder to differentiate between the flash in the pan, the old timer whose fading, and the elite talent.

If elite is one year only, then this is just another AA thread, and if we were swimming in guys having AA years, we probably wouldn't be in 9th.

[Mr X from the West]

Our club has a history of elite players....our Brownlow medal winners attest to that.

We also have only one Premiership.

I'm very happy to have less elite players and more consistently good players across the group if that's what it takes to win a Flag.

[Dan Warna]

I think the four players we have in many of the top 30s for media awards are montagna, dal santo, harvey and reiwoldt...

so if you are going by THAT measure, on CURRENT form...

[evertonfc]

As of today only Riewoldt is truly "elite".

Exactly.

Dal Santo is next in line, but he's still a big step below and hasn't done much for his cause this year, even though I think he's been better than most give him credit for.

[vacuous space]

Riewoldt is one of the best forwards in the game. Dal and Hayes are among the best mids in the game. Max is one of the best defenders in the game. They're special players who make our chances of winning better just by stepping on the field. They perform at the highest levl. They're in the dictionary under 'elite'.

[wildgoose]

Riewoldt is elite, you could pretty much say before he did his knee Lenny was elite, he is slowly coming back to that level. Dal is not there yet.

So we have definitely one elite player, and possibly another one.

[saintsRrising]

i think this is just another example of not appreciating what we have at the club and grass is greener on the other side syndrome.

On the contray Dan...I am not looking elsewhere....it is more that some of our best grass is not as tall and lush as it should be....in fact some that should be great is wilted.,,,or or a bit yellow...and in some cases some b****d has cut it too low!!!!!!!!!


Ross needs to find the right way to get our grass to be greener. How good his green thumb is we will know by the end of 2008!!!

[spert]

I think there is a freak-elite, they are the guys who can swing a match in their team's favour in a quarter. The freaks who kick 4 goals in quarter, or do nothing all day then set up or kick goals in the last 10 mins of a match. They are the guys who get you over the line in must-win matches. Here's some: D. Jarman, McLeod, Riccuto (Adel.) Wanganeen, The Burgoynes (PA & Ess), M Blight, Archer (Nth M.) G Ablett snr, Plugger, Baldock, Ian Stewart(StK), Peter Matera, Judd, Kerr (WCE). Probably lots more over the years.
Roo is verging on that, Lenny is not, he is a tough effective onballer, but lacks that freakish streak. DalSanto could be but he hasn't yet got the engine. I'm thinking Gilbert could develop into a freak-elite.

[Unforgiven]

Elite(imo):
Roo
Lenny(really super player, elite in my eyes)

we have a few with the potential to be

[borderbarry]

If Kosi can ever put his injuries behind him, he could be the best of them all. Let us not gorget his purple patch in 2005 when he gained 11 Brownlow votes in 4 games.

[Quixote]

Let us not gorget his purple patch in 2005 when he gained 11 Brownlow votes in 4 games.

Agreed, hard to gorget that period - Kosi was on gire.

And gemember some of the games he a glayed this year - showing healthy gromise of what could be a guper 2008.

I just hope that sort of gavalier gorm is not a thing of the gast.

[vacuous space]

Dal is totally underappreciated here. He's easily one of the best mids in the league. Why do you think opposition coaches put their best tagger on him? Why do you other teams were throwing large sums of money at him to try and get him to cross to their club? Because he's elite. He'll hurt you a lot more with his 21 possessions per game than someone like Sam Mitchell will with 25.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

Dal is totally underappreciated here. He's easily one of the best mids in the league. Why do you think opposition coaches put their best tagger on him? Why do you other teams were throwing large sums of money at him to try and get him to cross to their club? Because he's elite. He'll hurt you a lot more with his 21 possessions per game than someone like Sam Mitchell will with 25.

dal is good but to be "Elite " you have to be making an impact regardless of who your playing you have to have the power to turn a game on its head
dal is verry good and is an important part of the team but hes not the key factor in the teams sucess

[mad saint guy]

Only Roo.

Kosi, Dal, BJ, Chips have the ability to become elite, but they aren't at the moment.

[saintsRrising]

Dal is totally underappreciated here. He's easily one of the best mids in the league.

Well yes...but he COULD in the top 3 mids....and currently would not be. This is not to say that he is ordinary for he is not.......but he is tantalising close to being awesome. I think that there is no doubt that Dal could be up their with Cousins or say Black of the Lions...etc....but at present he is not as consistent.

Dal to me CURRENTLY is very very good...but I rate Lenny higher. Dal could be better than Lenny though. Could...but presently is not.


One great quality that dal seems to have more than our other mids is that he knows how to kicka goal on the run.

dal is agreat finisher and link man.............and would benefit hudgely from having afit Ball under the packs firing out handballs to him.

You mention Mitchell...a Mitchell/DalSanto combination would be lethal.

Why do you think opposition coaches put their best tagger on him?

Maybe it is also because they KNOW that tagger will be more likely to have significant negative effect on him....where as with say Lenny a tag will gain less bang for your buck. I would believe that Lenny plays better aginsta hard tag that Dal does.


Now there is no doubt that Dal is aplayer that they would like to negate.

But on the other hand Ball at present is not going to draw atag at all.

Why do you other teams were throwing large sums of money at him to try and get him to cross to their club?

Because he's elite. He'll hurt you a lot more with his 21 possessions per game than someone like Sam Mitchell will with 25.

No..I think it is because they know that he can be elite..and that the worse case scenario is gettinga very good player.






Now just imagine....how good the Saints would be if on regular basis we could have ALL of Dal, Ball and Hayes playing elte football in our midfield.......espicially if Gardi COULD also become an elite ruckman with us.


Roo I believe at 25 is just hitting his straps and we will see an awesome next 3 years from him.

[awesome_days]

Elite: Riewoldt Dal Santo
Upper Echelon: Koschitzke Hayes Goddard Maguire Ball Harvey Hughton Gherig Fisher
Potential Elites: Montagna Gilbert Fiora R Clarke X Clarke

In any given year those in the upper echelon may be considered elite. It is these players who will take you to a grand final. When we are winning these players are consistently putting in solid games.

Those in the elite bracket give you an expected performance wkke in week out. Dal is in there because a quiet night for him is 15 quality possessions. Even on an "off" day he still gives effective disposal.

The potential elites will win you a grand final. These players are the extra 10% of performance.

[Oh When the Saints]

Just to add to the discussion ...


I believe Goddard was on the verge of becoming elite before his injury.


His first games this season, and the way he finished off last year, suggested he was ready to take that next step and become a match-winner.


He has all the tools to become one of the competition's best, and IMO 2007 would have proved that.


Most people on here tend to forget how good and how important BJ was for us ... really, his loss IMO has been as significant as the loss of Hayes the year before.


Hopefully Goddard can slot back in and recapture his form ....


Would have been All-Australian this year IMO had he been fit.


Relive some of those piercing 60m passes, the strong marks across the backline, the running and bouncing up the ground ...



In my opinion, an elite player is one who has been in the top 5% (top 30) players in the competition for at least three seasons. I rate consistency slightly above match-winning ability when it comes to judging the elite.

At St Kilda:

Elite: N. Riewoldt, L. Hayes

[vacuous space]

I think that there is no doubt that Dal could be up their with Cousins or say Black of the Lions...etc....but at present he is not as consistent.

Dal isn't as good as Black or Mitchell around the stoppages, but he's better everywhere else on the field. He's a much more versatile and damaging player. If those guys are elite, then so is Dal Santo, so is Hayes and so is Luke Ball when he's healthy.

dal is agreat finisher and link man.............and would benefit hudgely from having afit Ball under the packs firing out handballs to him.

Dal has more contested possessions than anyone else on the team. I don't know why he keeps getting referred to as though he's an outside player. Having Ball healthy wouldn't make Dal any better. It'd make the team better as a whole, but Dal would still be the same elite player he is now.

Maybe it is also because they KNOW that tagger will be more likely to have significant negative effect on him....

How many times has a tagger had a significant effect on Dal this year? Two? Dal Santo does more with 15 touches than Joey does with 20. Dal has been held under 15 touches twice. He's one of the most effective and damaging mids in the comp. The key with guys like Dal Santo and Shaun Burgoyne isn't stopping them from from getting 20 touches, it's stopping them from carving you up with the possessions they do get.

[battye]

Only two:

• R. Harvey
• N. Riewoldt

Once you gain that "elite" status, you don't lose it.

Dal Santo is on the fringes of that list, but he is still seen as very good & classy, not quite elite (a Brownlow would change that I think).

[saintsRrising]

Dal isn't as good as Black or Mitchell around the stoppages, but he's better everywhere else on the field. He's a much more versatile and damaging player. .

Yes.

Dal has more contested possessions than anyone else on the team. I don't know why he keeps getting referred to as though he's an outside player. Having Ball healthy wouldn't make Dal any better. It'd make the team better as a whole, but Dal would still be the same elite player he is now.

.

I am not saying that Dal is ONLY an outside player....it is just that he does a lot more damage outside (or rather on the fringe of packs...not outside as in wing)....whereas Ball at his best does a lot more damage inside.

So for me it would be ideal if Ball could play inside....linking to Dal. Sometimes of course at centre bounces with 3 mids icluding Dal there he will win the contested ball.

Getting Dal to be that little bit better.....is one reason i am still very bullish about the Saints.





Now IF we had a good tap ruckman in form....then Dal would be awesome in the middle. Just imagine dal with Coc for example.....

[Teflon]

Riewoldt - that is all for the so called.....super list....

I agree with GT wholeheartedly....

[Armoooo]

Elite:
Harvey
Dal
Riewoldt
Hayes

Gun:
Gram
Hudghton
Gehrig
Baker
Ball
Goddard
Kosi
S.Fisher
Maguire

Expect Kosi and Goddard and possibly even Maguire to leave that list soon...
And expect X and R Clarke as well as Gilbert to join it...

[St DAC]

If we have 3 or 4 "elite" players, and 8 to 10 "guns", why are we 9th after 21 rounds?

I think some of us over rate our players just a tad ... "elite" is best of the best, not just very good. And "gun" is at least very good, just under elite. IMO we have 1 elite, (Roo) and a couple of guns; Lenny and Max. Everyone else named has the potential to be at that level, but is not there yet.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

If we have 3 or 4 "elite" players, and 8 to 10 "guns", why are we 9th after 21 rounds?

I think some of us over rate our players just a tad ... "elite" is best of the best, not just very good. And "gun" is at least very good, just under elite. IMO we have 1 elite, (Roo) and a couple of guns; Lenny and Max. Everyone else named has the potential to be at that level, but is not there yet.

One of the key things being debated in this thread is whether or not we can consider players having "off" years to be elite. Clearly, this will have an impact on the standings. Regardless of this however, it's not the only factor in the Saints being 9th.

1) Not being damaging enough on the scoreboard - the Saints conversion rate is under 50%, which cannot be attributed to whether or not Lenny, Dal, or anyone in the defense is elite.
2) Extremely poor at protecting leads, finishing out games, etc. Injuries and form have surely meant it's difficult to call the Saints defenders elite, but on past form, it's likely that Hudghton and Maguire will have better '08s than '07s, and Goddard will be back in (in fact, barring re-injury, one would expect to be debating the inclusion of at least Hudghton and Goddard at this time next year). Again, this really doesn't impact on the elite status of mids.

I'd say both those things are more important to the Saints being 9th than whether or not Lenny, Dal or Harvey can be counted amongst the elite. If we're really discussing guns and elite players on the Saints, we also need to discount the general view that the Saints injuries are nothing but an excuse... it's the old chestnut of the Saints list being overrated or not, and whether or not you believe that the Saints are top 4 when healthy on paper, St. K has done an excellent job this year of displaying that AFL games are not played on paper.

I'm surprised so many people look at this year as being a good measuring stick for the Saints list. I look at last weeks game against the Eagles, and while as a Saints supporter, I can't expect them to make much noise after this week (if they make finals) because I don't know whether they'll rip out a Q1 v WCE, or a Q4 v Coll from quarter to quarter... but if I'm an opponent, I'd be terrified of them stringing together 3 or 4 of the good quarters. I think it's very hard to say on this years form how good/bad the Saints are, and hard to measure individual players... and so you'd just be doing the AA selectors thing where Riewoldt's the only chance. I think that's no truer a statement than "4 elite and 8 guns".

[Dan Warna]

Melbourne were famous in the 80s and 90s for making 10 years of finals continuously without a flag mostly under northey, their list was quite good and included some absolute guns and stars, under Daniher they had 'alternate year syndrome' for almost as long, again their list was very good.

Geelong were famous for a gun run of 4 flag tilts from 89 to 05, the stars they had were quite outstanding. not a flag to show for it. ablett, couch, bairstow, hocking, even brownless etc

having the list is one thing winning the flag is another. I've felt for much of 07 we haven't been playing as a team, we've played as a collection of individuals (when we beat carlton we had no plan IMO we just bludgeoned them on raw talent),

we've had another year of bad injuries to key players, and either the plan we played to for part of the year was terrible, our players willfully didn't employ the plan, or they didn't understand the plan or were confused by the plan contributed to the lack of form.

IMHO we have an outstanding list, a top 4 list in fact, that is my opinion, others think otherwise. Of our few meetings with Sydney and WCE only once I think we were anhilated and that was when we were missing a fair few of our guns, we've regularly beaten Sydney and only lost to WCE by narrow margins. Neither have fears for us IMO if they are the bench mark under our current and previous coach.