The bollocking our recruiters get on this site bemuses me somewhat, especially in light of the way we are performing. John Beveridge in particular seems to be a target. 20/20 Hindsight. The best sort of vision of all. The one thing I will say is that JB worked under terrible constraints in terms of resources. Most recruiting managers earned more in salary than JB's entire budget! The good news is that while we've made mistakes, so have 15 other clubs. I present Richmond as the most extreme example! The even better news is that John Peake, Paul Collins and JB (Yes, he's still a consultant) have set up a system of networks and structures that will see our recruiting department become one of the best going around. And no, I'm not related to any of them.
If we subject other clubs' lists to the sort of scrutiny that the posters on here have subjected ours to, we will find similar tales of woe. Every club makes poor recruiting decisions. The fact is that most selections don't work out. The average AFL career is just 3.5 years! Only 10 % of players play for more than 10 years or rack up 200 games!
The overall test of our recruiting effectiveness is that we've assembled a list over the past TEN years that now sees us sitting on top, 12-0, and with a realistic chance of winning a flag in the next three years. By my way of thinking that puts us ahead of at least 12 other clubs. I know there have been the Howards, Raymonds and Sweeneys. All of them speculative picks, late in the draft. Every club has its Watts (Unlucky with injury as well) Acklands and McGoughs. What some people don't realise is that we just missed out on selecting some really good players that were pinched just before our pick. Bernie Vince at Adelaide is one such example. OVerall, we've done better than most.
It's becoming increasingly obvious that it's not so much who you pick up that determines long term success, it's what you do with them once you have them. I think this is where RL and his TEAM has really shone. Careers have been revived and players have improved dramatically under the tutelage of Hutchison, Sexton, Elshaug, Silvagni and Tudor, not forgetting the physical conditioning guys.
The overall message these days is that it's a true team effort and recruiting is just one part of the puzzle. The obsession with drafting young players from the draft camps/u18's is a dying trend. The entrance of the GC17 and West Sydney, means that clubs will have to find new sources for playing stocks. Local state leagues and suburban comps will be "mined" for untapped talent.
We've already done well in this area by developing the likes of Clinton Jones, a mature-bodied, experienced player with loads of potential, but who needed a great deal of coaching to get him to AFL standard. There are plenty more like him out there and we have the structures in place to accommodate them. Think about the clubs who have been consistently strong performers, without the need to "bottom out". Adelaide, Geelong, the Swines (Although that might be coming to an end) and Brisbane come to mind. All have wonderful coaching and development structures in place that provide a "culture" for success.
Saints fans have every right to be excited. Our list is strong, we have talented youngsters ( Lynch, Armitage, McEvoy, Steven, Stanley) who are serving solid developmental apprenticeships and given reasonable luck will make the grade. We should be up there for at least the next 4-5 years, and that is a recipe for premiership success. The last time we were as consistently good as this was back in the 60's and 70's under Allan Jeans. And we all know what happened during that period!
Our recruiting and development structures are great!
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White Winmar
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Our recruiting and development structures are great!
I started with nothing and I've got most of it left!
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kaos theory
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I don't htink people are knocking JB as a poor recuiter. Its just that during the 2001-2006 period we had very poor level of resourcing in that area. JB worked on his own with little supporting network. We also had poor development of the players that were on the list , poor relationship with the vfl affiliate & very few if any rookies.
But you are correct that the club has improved significantly in this area over the last couple of years, and the right sort of structures have been put in place to keep things going in the right direction.
The footy department has been well run & managed over the last couple of years, when compared to previous times...
But you are correct that the club has improved significantly in this area over the last couple of years, and the right sort of structures have been put in place to keep things going in the right direction.
The footy department has been well run & managed over the last couple of years, when compared to previous times...
Yes it was only 2001 until 2006. Not before of course. No agenda of course.kaos theory wrote:I don't htink people are knocking JB as a poor recuiter. Its just that during the 2001-2006 period we had very poor level of resourcing in that area. JB worked on his own with little supporting network. We also had poor development of the players that were on the list , poor relationship with the vfl affiliate & very few if any rookies.
But you are correct that the club has improved significantly in this area over the last couple of years, and the right sort of structures have been put in place to keep things going in the right direction.
The footy department has been well run & managed over the last couple of years, when compared to previous times...
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kaos theory
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Oh my mistake...plugger66 wrote:Yes it was only 2001 until 2006. Not before of course. No agenda of course.kaos theory wrote:I don't htink people are knocking JB as a poor recuiter. Its just that during the 2001-2006 period we had very poor level of resourcing in that area. JB worked on his own with little supporting network. We also had poor development of the players that were on the list , poor relationship with the vfl affiliate & very few if any rookies.
But you are correct that the club has improved significantly in this area over the last couple of years, and the right sort of structures have been put in place to keep things going in the right direction.
The footy department has been well run & managed over the last couple of years, when compared to previous times...
From 1887 to 2006. Is that better?
Point is, if you can understand it, is that during the early to mid 2000s we had the opportunity to fundamentally improve the operation of our footy department. But instead, we were locked in ego battles as the head coach & prez lost the plot.
Our injury management was a joke, ditto player development, etc. By the early 2000s, it was pretty clear what improvement could have been brought to the footy department. We didn't choose to begin that path until the last year of RB's admin (but that was minimal), but not until the new admin got in that we significantly started to improve in this area.
Maybe you should try adding constructive comments next time, rather than sniping from the woods. Try it p66 its not that hard....
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saintsRrising
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Re: Our recruiting and development structures are great!
No...it is not the recruiting of new picks except for the rookie system which was neglected...it was the trades of the previous regime in their last three years or so. A tragic record.White Winmar wrote:The bollocking our recruiters get on this site bemuses me somewhat, !
Sure there were poor recruits drafted such as Howard..but by an large the record is good even if it tapered off at the end.
We have gone from an abysmal trading record to probably the best traders in the AFL.
We have also gone from developing virtually no rookies (less than virtually all other AFL teams including poor ones)...to a steady stream.
So do not look at JB...look at the person that was doing the trades and who was not developing rookies.
Last edited by saintsRrising on Mon 22 Jun 2009 7:48pm, edited 1 time in total.
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You were the one with the not to contructive comments unless your memory is playing tricks on you. I would say our recruiting problems were far deeper than GT and RB fallout. Goes further back than that but you choose to mention certain dates.kaos theory wrote:Oh my mistake...plugger66 wrote:Yes it was only 2001 until 2006. Not before of course. No agenda of course.kaos theory wrote:I don't htink people are knocking JB as a poor recuiter. Its just that during the 2001-2006 period we had very poor level of resourcing in that area. JB worked on his own with little supporting network. We also had poor development of the players that were on the list , poor relationship with the vfl affiliate & very few if any rookies.
But you are correct that the club has improved significantly in this area over the last couple of years, and the right sort of structures have been put in place to keep things going in the right direction.
The footy department has been well run & managed over the last couple of years, when compared to previous times...
From 1887 to 2006. Is that better?
Point is, if you can understand it, is that during the early to mid 2000s we had the opportunity to fundamentally improve the operation of our footy department. But instead, we were locked in ego battles as the head coach & prez lost the plot.
Our injury management was a joke, ditto player development, etc. By the early 2000s, it was pretty clear what improvement could have been brought to the footy department. We didn't choose to begin that path until the last year of RB's admin (but that was minimal), but not until the new admin got in that we significantly started to improve in this area.
Maybe you should try adding constructive comments next time, rather than sniping from the woods. Try it p66 its not that hard....
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Con Gorozidis
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bobmurray
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yeah sure..apparently we are now up there with the trend setters recruiting wise,we are building good depth..Con Gorozidis wrote:can somone give me a summary. cant be bothered reading this entire post.
plugger has made some contributions,but still favours quantity over quality,
you have to admire consistency...
And a bit of a mention of some of our recent recruiting successes.....
Saints looking like a bottom 4 team in 2024.
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White Winmar
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I know what you're driving at Plugger66 and this thread is in no way anti Grant Thomas. IMHO and at the risk of being pelted with rotten fruit, I think GT left a great legacy in that he left RL with a core group of professional and committed young guns. This has been added to by the current regime, that has also addressed some of the shortfalls of the past.
My arguments against why we've had little team successes over the journey revolve around our well worn culture of individualism. The messiah was always going to deliver the goods; and we've followed a few in our time at St.Kilda. The Doc, Ken Sheldon, Stan Alves, Tim Watson, Malcolm Blight, Tony Lockett, Robert Harvey, Nicky Winmar et al. All great football people who were eventually swallowed by the "Bermuda Triangle" of football that is the area bound by Linton Street, South Road and the Nepean Highway.
The club, at last, appears to be functioning as a whole, without the traditional hopes resting on the fortunes and performances of a few individuals. I can hear the crowd screaming,"What if Riewoldt went
down?" Seriously, and at the risk of being committed to an asylum, we could even win it without the Roo! Although I'd prefer not to find out the hard way!
My arguments against why we've had little team successes over the journey revolve around our well worn culture of individualism. The messiah was always going to deliver the goods; and we've followed a few in our time at St.Kilda. The Doc, Ken Sheldon, Stan Alves, Tim Watson, Malcolm Blight, Tony Lockett, Robert Harvey, Nicky Winmar et al. All great football people who were eventually swallowed by the "Bermuda Triangle" of football that is the area bound by Linton Street, South Road and the Nepean Highway.
The club, at last, appears to be functioning as a whole, without the traditional hopes resting on the fortunes and performances of a few individuals. I can hear the crowd screaming,"What if Riewoldt went
down?" Seriously, and at the risk of being committed to an asylum, we could even win it without the Roo! Although I'd prefer not to find out the hard way!
I started with nothing and I've got most of it left!
bobmurray wrote:yeah sure..apparently we are now up there with the trend setters recruiting wise,we are building good depth..Con Gorozidis wrote:can somone give me a summary. cant be bothered reading this entire post.
plugger has made some contributions,but still favours quantity over quality,
you have to admire consistency...
And a bit of a mention of some of our recent recruiting successes.....
Not sure I have ever mentioned quantity over quality but I'm not sure you understand English either.
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saintsRrising
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While the start of what you say is true...it reached it's zenith when one demi-god wanted to be all things and control all things...with the result that we had a person running things that he was poor at as well as the things he was good at....and the club suffered for it.White Winmar wrote:I know what you're driving at Plugger66 and this thread is in no way anti Grant Thomas. IMHO and at the risk of being pelted with rotten fruit, I think GT left a great legacy in that he left RL with a core group of professional and committed young guns. This has been added to by the current regime, that has also addressed some of the shortfalls of the past.
My arguments against why we've had little team successes over the journey revolve around our well worn culture of individualism. The messiah was always going to deliver the goods; and we've followed a few in our time at St.Kilda. The Doc, Ken Sheldon, Stan Alves, Tim Watson, Malcolm Blight, Tony Lockett, Robert Harvey, Nicky Winmar et al. All great football people who were eventually swallowed by the "Bermuda Triangle" of football that is the area bound by Linton Street, South Road and the Nepean Highway.
The club, at last, appears to be functioning as a whole, without the traditional hopes resting on the fortunes and performances of a few individuals. I can hear the crowd screaming,"What if Riewoldt went
down?" Seriously, and at the risk of being committed to an asylum, we could even win it without the Roo! Although I'd prefer not to find out the hard way!
It is only since we have spread the load with a broader football department with people that are actually good at their specialty that we have moved on and improved.
Ken Sheldon was tried as a football manager and found wanting and so was moved on.
We are now beyond the individual...and everthing is TEAM first..this includes players coaching staff, football department, Board...and indeed the whole club.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
Do you ever give up. Lets face facts they had bugger all money to work with 5 years ago. It has changed now.saintsRrising wrote:While the start of what you say is true...it reached it's zenith when one demi-god wanted to be all things and control all things...with the result that we had a person running things that he was poor at as well as the things he was good at....and the club suffered for it.White Winmar wrote:I know what you're driving at Plugger66 and this thread is in no way anti Grant Thomas. IMHO and at the risk of being pelted with rotten fruit, I think GT left a great legacy in that he left RL with a core group of professional and committed young guns. This has been added to by the current regime, that has also addressed some of the shortfalls of the past.
My arguments against why we've had little team successes over the journey revolve around our well worn culture of individualism. The messiah was always going to deliver the goods; and we've followed a few in our time at St.Kilda. The Doc, Ken Sheldon, Stan Alves, Tim Watson, Malcolm Blight, Tony Lockett, Robert Harvey, Nicky Winmar et al. All great football people who were eventually swallowed by the "Bermuda Triangle" of football that is the area bound by Linton Street, South Road and the Nepean Highway.
The club, at last, appears to be functioning as a whole, without the traditional hopes resting on the fortunes and performances of a few individuals. I can hear the crowd screaming,"What if Riewoldt went
down?" Seriously, and at the risk of being committed to an asylum, we could even win it without the Roo! Although I'd prefer not to find out the hard way!
It is only since we have spread the load with a broader football department with people that are actually good at their specialty that we have moved on and improved.
Ken Sheldon was tried as a football manager and found wanting and so was moved on.
We are now beyond the individual...and everthing is TEAM first..this includes players coaching staff, football department, Board...and indeed the whole club.
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bobmurray
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You should re read my post until you get its gist....plugger66 wrote:bobmurray wrote:yeah sure..apparently we are now up there with the trend setters recruiting wise,we are building good depth..Con Gorozidis wrote:can somone give me a summary. cant be bothered reading this entire post.
plugger has made some contributions,but still favours quantity over quality,
you have to admire consistency...
And a bit of a mention of some of our recent recruiting successes.....
Not sure I have ever mentioned quantity over quality but I'm not sure you understand English either.
Saints looking like a bottom 4 team in 2024.
Wouldnt be the first time I am lost and I am again with that reply.bobmurray wrote:You should re read my post until you get its gist....plugger66 wrote:bobmurray wrote:yeah sure..apparently we are now up there with the trend setters recruiting wise,we are building good depth..Con Gorozidis wrote:can somone give me a summary. cant be bothered reading this entire post.
plugger has made some contributions,but still favours quantity over quality,
you have to admire consistency...
And a bit of a mention of some of our recent recruiting successes.....
Not sure I have ever mentioned quantity over quality but I'm not sure you understand English either.
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saintsRrising
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Face facts.?.you ignore them.plugger66 wrote:
Lets face facts they had bugger all money to work with 5 years ago. It has changed now.
Lets look at trading and bugger all money.
GT was a a HUGE trader..including first round picks. So what has lack of money got to do with it?
Have King, Gardiner, Schneider, Dempster Ray etc cost big $$$$ = no. Were bug$$$ required in examing whther to recruit them = no.
One regime was dismal at trading. They frittered awy high draft picks and gained little in return.
The current regime has been brilliant in it's trading.
it is matter of competece and incompetemce...and not $$$.
These are the facts.
One regime plucked Rix as an AFL reject...the next Zac....was moneya factor? = no.
One regime is good at making use of discarded players and trades...the other was dismal..and money and it's abundance or scarcity has bugger all to do with it.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....