To be a contender

[B.M]

You need to build a list capable of 3 to 4 seasons where they can make a preliminary final.

Have we got the foundation in place to do that in the foreseeable future?

ATM I believe the dogs have that list, perhaps Melbourne, Brisbane and Port thereabouts.

After that there is Sydney, Essendon, Freo and Carlton putting together lists

If they don’t win it this year, Geelong will start to wane.
GWS have missed the boat - should have won 1 or 2
Richmond are going to go backwards soon

Rebuilding are North, Hawthorn, GC and Coll will have to

Where does that leave us?

Is our list Going anywhere??

What are we lacking??

How do we get it??

Who are underperforming players that can’t be trusted?

What’s our point of difference??

Who is potentiallly A Grade??

Questions that need to be answered

Each one of our players must be examined and the question should be
Are they going to help us contend for a premiership?!

[Impatient Sainter]

Another A grade tall defender (Highmore might be the answer).
Maintain leg speed in our small defenders not Clark or Coffield.
Another competive tall forward/ruckman ready to play (they are rare).
And an elite balanced quick midfielder.

Plus to keep the core of our better players on the park.

[B.M]

Is that quick and balanced mid

Jade Gresham


Is a Midfield of

Ryder - Steele - Gresham
Ross - Crouch - Clark

Int: Jones - Dunstan

Med Sub: Hannebery

Depth: McKenzie - Bytel - Byrnes - Draftee

Good enough to be a contender?

[skeptic]

Is that quick and balanced mid

Jade Gresham


Is a Midfield of

Ryder - Steele - Gresham
Ross - Crouch - Clark

Int: Jones - Dunstan

Med Sub: Hannebery

Depth: McKenzie - Bytel - Byrnes - Draftee

Good enough to be a contender?

No.

For starters, Hannebery is a non-starter.
Even if by some miracle he gets on the park, there’s very little likelihood that he’ll stay there. Completely dismiss him from calculations… anything he gives is a bonus

Jones too is becoming increasingly unlikely to be a permanent fixture… clearly good enough but 5 hamstrings in 2 years is a worry.

I also don’t think you can have all of Ross, Dunstan, Bytel there at the same time.
Bytel is not ready but needs games… the other 2 have strengths and limitations that aren’t the right balance.

Gresham too, with his disposal and decision making… he’s just not the right fit for the middle
He needs to be up forward where his instincts and explosive are more damaging… and his running ability + capacity to work up the ground is a strength of his game as opposed to being something he relies on.

Not nearly enough class there

If you swapped Dunstan, Ross and Hannerbery for the other Crouch and got another mid that’s more polished whilst rotating Gresh/Butler/Higgins all up the ground for patches alongside Billings… much better look IMO

[Vortex]

This season has exposed our vulnerabilities, we are still a few years of being a sustainable top 4 side. At the start of the season I thought different.

Hopefully the club doesn't think this is the list to lift us into top 4. I think the recruiting strategy from here needs recognise exactly this point and be patient by having another 2 to 3 year timeframe of recruiting the required players to complete a list capable of lifting itself into the top 4 category.

We will falter badly if the club think we are close and dont choose the right recruiting strategy to complete this list build.

[Vortex]

Is that quick and balanced mid

Jade Gresham


Is a Midfield of

Ryder - Steele - Gresham
Ross - Crouch - Clark

Int: Jones - Dunstan

Med Sub: Hannebery

Depth: McKenzie - Bytel - Byrnes - Draftee

Good enough to be a contender?

No.

For starters, Hannebery is a non-starter.
Even if by some miracle he gets on the park, there’s very little likelihood that he’ll stay there. Completely dismiss him from calculations… anything he gives is a bonus

Jones too is becoming increasingly unlikely to be a permanent fixture… clearly good enough but 5 hamstrings in 2 years is a worry.

I also don’t think you can have all of Ross, Dunstan, Bytel there at the same time.
Bytel is not ready but needs games… the other 2 have strengths and limitations that aren’t the right balance.

Gresham too, with his disposal and decision making… he’s just not the right fit for the middle
He needs to be up forward where his instincts and explosive are more damaging… and his running ability + capacity to work up the ground is a strength of his game as opposed to being something he relies on.

Not nearly enough class there

If you swapped Dunstan, Ross and Hannerbery for the other Crouch and got another mid that’s more polished whilst rotating Gresh/Butler/Higgins all up the ground for patches alongside Billings… much better look IMO

I tend to agree, apart from players we need for the spine we are short on class and depth.

Trading currency is our biggest challenge, it's one thing to identify your needs, it's another trying to fill those needs. A crucial juncture in this list build.

[The_Dud]

We need to draft / trade for young quality mids, as many as possible.

[cwrcyn]

It's not just about talent, but the age profile, too.

23 and under

King 21
Higgins 22
Clark 22
Byrnes 20
Bytel 21
Coffield 21
Connolly 20
Paton 22
Battle 22
Gresham 23
Highmore 23

That's a pretty reasonable group of younger players

24 - 26

Marshall 25
Howard 25
Wilkie 25
Steele 25
Jones 26
Billings 26
Sinclair 26
Long 24
Lonie 24
Mckenzie 25
Dunstan 26
Butler 25
Joyce 24

27 - 28

Membrey 27
Ross 28
Webster 28
Crouch 27
Hill 28
Kent 27
Wood 27

That's 30 players aged 28 or under (most under 26) that have plenty of football left in them

Now, it's arguable as to whether some, such as Joyce, Lonie, and Kent will be playing much football for us from 2022 onward, but the rest I have confidence in being up for the task at senior level

There are to unknowns like Allison, Clavarino, Health, and Sharman. Given our recent history with Wilkie and Highmore, maybe Sharman is another who will surprise. Heath is a complete unknown quantity, Clavarino hasn't had enough exposure at AFL level to get a grasp of his capabilities, and Allison is a skinny pup who could go either way.


Of the old brigade, apart from Ryder (33), it's hard to see any playing a part, unless there's a miracle and Hannebery (30) can get match fit again.

We need another ruckman (could it be Heath in 18 months?), at least one quick, skilful midfielder, and a very tall defender to make the list complete.

When you consider that five players have been added to the mix since last year (Crouch, Higgins, Highmore, Byrnes, and Connolly) things aren't looking as grim as many on here seem to think. Juts a few pieces of the puzzle to find and we'll be in the hunt.

[cwrcyn]

Of that younger group, nearly all have not reached their potential. I'd say Gresham is the only one, and some may argue he has more improvement in him. The others will get better and when they do, that will make quite a difference.

[B.M]

Gresham will play midfield- that you can take to the bank

The coaching staff consider him a clearance mid - with ability to go forward

Long - Defensive small forward
Butler - Crumber
Higgins - small HF
Billings - HF/Wing

King - FF
Membrey - CHF
Marshall/Ryder - FP

[sunsaint]

Gresham will play midfield- that you can take to the bank

The coaching staff consider him a clearance mid - with ability to go forward

Long - Defensive small forward
Butler - Crumber
Higgins - small HF
Billings - HF/Wing

King - FF
Membrey - CHF
Marshall/Ryder - FP

"Gresham will play midfield- that you can take to the bank"
yes he will and thats exactly what i see as the problem to becoming a contender
The level of improvement
yep Gresham is ok, serviceable at best & probably excites a few on here with his manic pressure game when in the middle
In a word its his size - too small in todays big man on-ballers and just bounces around collisions & spends a bit his time on the deck
I remember Caleb Daniels' career over the journey @ dogs tried in the middle, forward and is now a permanent back - & he is bloody good & very reliable. Never flustered and his disposal is awesome. But what sets this small man apart from Gresham is his work over head which is miles better than Gresh

We simply need an A grade on-baller who rests up forward aka Dusty, Bont etc ( which will also help King)
We need an A grade backman aka Harris
And we need to find a replacement for Ryder asap
simple

[Banger9798]

I reckon Gresham is little undervalued by Saints supporters.
Opposition supporters and neutral commentators seem to rate him as a serious talent.
I really hope he gets back on the trajectory he was on before injury - we have barely seen what he can do with dominant ruckmen feeding him, his evasion is elite

[B.M]

Why isn’t that A Grade on baller

Jack Steele 188/90 - who I rate as the 5th best power onballer in the AFL?!

HTF is he underrated considering the two seasons he’s just had??!!

Crouch is a contested animal, as is Dunstan

Gresham and Jones provide breakaway speed from clearances

Gresham is 178 and 80 and is a powerful athlete

Darcy Parish and Zac Merrett are both 180 and McGrath is 178 and Shiel 182 - Size is not as important as ability

[Ghost Like]

What is interesting about the OP, an interesting discussion and I respect B.M.'s knowledge. History is beginning to show you don't necessarily need to be Prelim qualified / experienced to win a flag. Look at the lead up to flags that the Bulldogs and Richmond had.

The questions posed are being asked without any consideration of development or its worth. They seem quite negative in terms of who we have & how best we develop them to achieve what we want. We need quality assistant and development coaches & fitness staff to lift our U/23s to challenge / complement a tilt at a flag.

[skeptic]

I don’t disagree with you BM…
I just think it’s a mistake. IMO he’s not that good a mid. His decision making and disposal is iffy. He’s part of the bomb it in culture.

Don’t get we wrong… I reckon he’s a great player but he’s just so much better suited up forward where he can be mercurial and do the defensive stuff

[Jacks Back]

This season has exposed our vulnerabilities, we are still a few years of being a sustainable top 4 side. At the start of the season I thought different.

Hopefully the club doesn't think this is the list to lift us into top 4. I think the recruiting strategy from here needs recognise exactly this point and be patient by having another 2 to 3 year timeframe of recruiting the required players to complete a list capable of lifting itself into the top 4 category.

We will falter badly if the club think we are close and dont choose the right recruiting strategy to complete this list build.

What, even more mercenaries traded in? We would have the most players of any club that has players from other clubs already.

[B.M]

I don’t care if players come from the moon

As long as they come in and help us win games

Are Steele and Membrey mercenaries?

[saintsRrising]

I don’t disagree with you BM…
I just think it’s a mistake. IMO he’s not that good a mid. His decision making and disposal is iffy. He’s part of the bomb it in culture.

Don’t get we wrong… I reckon he’s a great player but he’s just so much better suited up forward where he can be mercurial and do the defensive stuff

Yes, as mid Gresham is a poor user.

Mind you that sums up most of our mids. But that is the problem.

What we need is what we should have had = Petracca.

[bigcarl]

I reckon Gresham is little undervalued by Saints supporters.
Opposition supporters and neutral commentators seem to rate him as a serious talent.
I really hope he gets back on the trajectory he was on before injury - we have barely seen what he can do with dominant ruckmen feeding him, his evasion is elite

I’m with you and I’m pretty sure Ratts’ heart sank when he fell over.

Has the ability to be a gun midfielder despite his lack of height.

Some of his breakaway clearance work with Ryder last season was very special. Good as a resting small forward but wasted there full time.

Without one or two of he, Jones and Hunter Clark, our midfield this season often has seemed lacking in creativity. We need playmakers in the middle,

[Jacks Back]

I don’t care if players come from the moon

As long as they come in and help us win games

Are Steele and Membrey mercenaries?

You do know how to quote don't you? You click on the quotation mark (or inverted commas if you like) in someone's post and then type your response under the last part of the quote.

Anyway, mercenary may have been a bit strong. Probably only Hannebery comes into that category and possibly Hill (although Hill has been mainly good).

What I was getting at is that we need our homegrown players to come good and to pick up other good recruits in the draft for long-term success.

[Yorkeys]

To be a contender by Adrian Mole:
- avoid long term injuries to better players; (just bad luck? really? mathematically improbable what's going down at the Saints; oh ok then, pay the witches to lift the curse and apologise to Loki)
- kick straight; (big ask I know, but some seem to be able to so may be possible)
- don't buy broken down race horses, no matter how many Group 1s they have been in. (Beware the shiny coated prancer in the birdcage, the relaxed horse wins).

Do that and we contend. True.

[Beno88]

You need to build a list capable of 3 to 4 seasons where they can make a preliminary final.

History suggests otherwise...

Collingwood played in the 2018 GF having finished 13th the season before.
Richmond won the 2017 GF having finished 13th the season before.
Western Bulldogs won the 2016 GF after finishing 7th, 7th and 14th.
West Coast played in the 2015 GF having finished 9th the season before.
Fremantle played in the 2013 GF having finished 7th & 11th the seasons prior.
Geelong & Port played in the 2007 GF having finished 10th & 12th the season before.
Collingwood played in the 2002 GF having finished 9th & 15th the seasons prior.
Melbourne played in the 2000 GF having finished 14th the season before.
Carlton played in the 1999 GF having finished 6th, 11th & 11th prior.
St Kilda played in the 1997 GF having finished 10th, 14th & 13th prior.
it goes on throughout history....

The AFL is that even, you only need a good year with a bit of luck and you're a contender. Look at Melbourne, Sydney & the Bulldogs. Behind us less than 9 months ago, now comfortably ahead of us. Yet, on our day, we could easily beat all of them.

For prolonged success, yes, you need a group capable to compete at the top year on year, but to be a contenter in any given year, you just need 16-20 good games.

[skeptic]

I reckon Gresham is little undervalued by Saints supporters.
Opposition supporters and neutral commentators seem to rate him as a serious talent.
I really hope he gets back on the trajectory he was on before injury - we have barely seen what he can do with dominant ruckmen feeding him, his evasion is elite

I’m with you and I’m pretty sure Ratts’ heart sank when he fell over.

Has the ability to be a gun midfielder despite his lack of height.

Some of his breakaway clearance work with Ryder last season was very special. Good as a resting small forward but wasted there full time.

Without one or two of he, Jones and Hunter Clark, our midfield this season often has seemed lacking in creativity. We need playmakers in the middle,

100% reckon he’s a gun.

To be clear… am certainly not suggesting anything less than he’s a great player. My opinion is that he’s better utilised as a forward pushing mid than the other way round. Furthermore, pushes out a Lonie/Kent for good

[SaintPav]

From memory, Gresh has had a few outstanding games as a mid. He has averaged 21 disposals a game over the last 3 seasons, so he is better than just ok in the midfield.

He can also go forward and be dangerous so he’s playing his role.

Ridiculous to suggest he is a problem and he is stopping us from being a contender. We’re lucky to have him.

#nonsequitur

[B.M]

So we don’t think that be a contender for a 4 year period is more of a chance to win one

Than having a lucky one off season

Geelong up for basically a decade and a half
3 premierships

Richmond up there for half a decade 3 premierships

Hawthorn up there for a decade 4 premierships

Sydney up there for for the best part of 20 years 2 premierships

WCE up and down a bit but 2 GFs since 2015

Collingwood were good for 4 years around their 2010 premiership

Recent history suggests when teams get up there and win… they become hard to beat for a period of time!