Max King

[B.M]

The use of him staggers me?

He is 6’8” and 95kg

He is being asked to play as the deepest forward (anchor) and contest deep and bring it to ground

He ends up stationary and wrestling with bigger bodies

Basically if we look at the Geelong model
He is playing the Hawkins role

I think it’s obvious that he should be higher (more space) playing the Cameron role and the ‘bear in the square’ should be the resting ruck

At the moment Membrey is still playing as a 2 (like Tom MCDonald) when again, it’s obvious he should be a 3 (like Bailey Fritch)

I cannot believe the coaching staff is so clueless

In 2009 we had Kosi (Marshall/Ryder) playing deep and the more athletic Riewoldt playing higher

Clearly King should be allowed more room to move and use his legs more

And while we are at it
The kicking to King is atrocious - he needs a run and jump and we stick it on his head?!

Clearly it needs to be kicked out in front of him, with a bit of height so he can run and launch at it!!!!
Not bullet passes that take away his main asset (his reach) and definitely not on his head!

So fkn dumb

I would like to see the following set up

At 50m Membrey hit up lead
At 30 m King lateral lead
At 15m Marshall high ball contest

Smalls
Higgins, Gresham, Billings

[Teflon]

The use of him staggers me?

He is 6’8” and 95kg

He is being asked to play as the deepest forward (anchor) and contest deep and bring it to ground

He ends up stationary and wrestling with bigger bodies

Basically if we look at the Geelong model
He is playing the Hawkins role

I think it’s obvious that he should be higher (more space) playing the Cameron role and the ‘bear in the square’ should be the resting ruck

At the moment Membrey is still playing as a 2 (like Tom MCDonald) when again, it’s obvious he should be a 3 (like Bailey Fritch)

I cannot believe the coaching staff is so clueless

In 2009 we had Kosi (Marshall/Ryder) playing deep and the more athletic Riewoldt playing higher

Clearly King should be allowed more room to move and use his legs more

And while we are at it
The kicking to King is atrocious - he needs a run and jump and we stick it on his head?!

Clearly it needs to be kicked out in front of him, with a bit of height so he can run and launch at it!!!!
Not bullet passes that take away his main asset (his reach) and definitely not on his head!

So fkn dumb

I would like to see the following set up

At 50m Membrey hit up lead
At 30 m King lateral lead
At 15m Marshall high ball contest

Smalls
Higgins, Gresham, Billings

Agree with most of it
I think we are going to King as 1 then Higgins 2
I think we need to think about life after Membrey
Play Sharman in a block of games to find out

[B.M]

Higgins should not be a contested marking target at 178cm

A target in general play is fine, if he finds space

I’m talking structure at stoppage (particularly CB)

Membrey should be very high

[Sainter_Dad]

The use of him staggers me?

He is 6’8” and 95kg

He is being asked to play as the deepest forward (anchor) and contest deep and bring it to ground

He ends up stationary and wrestling with bigger bodies

Basically if we look at the Geelong model
He is playing the Hawkins role

I think it’s obvious that he should be higher (more space) playing the Cameron role and the ‘bear in the square’ should be the resting ruck

At the moment Membrey is still playing as a 2 (like Tom MCDonald) when again, it’s obvious he should be a 3 (like Bailey Fritch)

I cannot believe the coaching staff is so clueless

In 2009 we had Kosi (Marshall/Ryder) playing deep and the more athletic Riewoldt playing higher

Clearly King should be allowed more room to move and use his legs more

And while we are at it
The kicking to King is atrocious - he needs a run and jump and we stick it on his head?!

Clearly it needs to be kicked out in front of him, with a bit of height so he can run and launch at it!!!!
Not bullet passes that take away his main asset (his reach) and definitely not on his head!

So fkn dumb

I would like to see the following set up

At 50m Membrey hit up lead
At 30 m King lateral lead
At 15m Marshall high ball contest

Smalls
Higgins, Gresham, Billings

Stop making sense

[The_Dud]

It all seems pretty straight forward.

Continuing to bomb on top of his head isn’t going to help anyone, he’ll get smashed to the point of injury.

Kick it out in front of him, let him have a run and jump. And if there’s a bloke in front of him? Let him jump into / over them, they won’t be there for very long!

Make sure the second and third talls are helping by leading to DIFFERENT areas!

And get Milney down there to run a class on what a small forwards actual role is when you have big forwards, because currently Butler and Higgins have NFI!

[Teflon]

Higgins and Membrey need to do more they both can not be carried in the same side
Kicking to King 38% of time is embarrassing for our coaching staff
Who the eff runs our transition and forward structure plan???

[realdeal]

What a sensible thread.. It all makes sense.

It beggers belief really... then we have Membrey playing exclusively 50-80m from goal, or defence. Not even a threat to kick a goal, followed by the 2 week disaster of playing Butler (out of form) and Higgins (rushed back when not match fit)

Wouldn't mind hearing from Ratten as to what exactly they're trying to achieve...

[Devilhead]

Agree with the smalls - Gresh Higgo & Billings

But we can't rely on Marshall and Ryder always being there as a resting forward .... we need another tall (non resting ruck) .... has to be Sharman in there as well

At no times should we only ever have 2 tall to mid marking targets forward

[skeptic]

What’s wrong with Higgins taking marks on the lead around the 50, then going back and kicking it straight towards the middle of the big sticks, landing roughly 15m out in front.

I respect the genius of trying new things

[WellardSaint]

Pressure:
-Give a young man the #12 guernsey
-Let the squad give him the Winx nickname
-Let Ryder tweet a selfie with Max, captioned 'gonna tell my kids I played with the GOAT'

That's how you pressure a young man so that every set shot has the weight of the world on his shoulders.

[SAINT-LEE]

C'mon everybody, Ratts knows best.

He's getting a 5 yr extension...

I know lots of youse cry foul when swap the coach comes up in posts....as if we don't stick it out with losers....cough cough Cho cough....

Enough already. If we CAN get Choco or Clarkson NOW fire him tomorrow. There's only more loses coming....you can't completely change your coaching strategy...well, you can but he won't.

It'll be same same and it only work on weaker teams

[WellardSaint]

What a sensible thread.. It all makes sense.

It beggers belief really... then we have Membrey playing exclusively 50-80m from goal, or defence. Not even a threat to kick a goal, followed by the 2 week disaster of playing Butler (out of form) and Higgins (rushed back when not match fit)

Wouldn't mind hearing from Ratten as to what exactly they're trying to achieve...

Butler is a selection error.
Sure, I know nothing about coaching.
But the results speak for themselves.
It's like picking Weller, Newnes, Lonie, all over again.
Hoping. Praying. Persisting.
Umtil they get delisted.
Butler is on the same trajectory.
When things aren't working for him, he falls back onto his party tricks, the OPPOSITE of team-first footy.

[B.M]

Newnes - still getting games at Carlton

Lonie - not terrible

Weller - more than serviceable for a few years

We didn’t have a great list though

Didn’t Butler earn his spot with a BOG at vfl level?

[WellardSaint]

Newnes - still getting games at Carlton

Lonie - not terrible

Weller - more than serviceable for a few years

We didn’t have a great list though

Didn’t Butler earn his spot with a BOG at vfl level?

Lots of players change clubs.
Brent Guerra was one.
Newnes just didn't do too well under Cho.
New club, new start, etc

[Teflon]

Newnes - still getting games at Carlton

Lonie - not terrible

Weller - more than serviceable for a few years

We didn’t have a great list though

Didn’t Butler earn his spot with a BOG at vfl level?

Butler has proved now at 2 AFL clubs that he’s a 1 season trick pony
Under pressure he folds
It’s not actually his fault it’s more about our coach who refuses to structure up a forward half with some help for King (who’d be killing it at a well coached club)
Ratten will win a game or 2 against lowly opponents then rush back in his small forwards brigade
He has form and appears inflexible

[Vortex]

Newnes - still getting games at Carlton

Lonie - not terrible

Weller - more than serviceable for a few years

We didn’t have a great list though

Didn’t Butler earn his spot with a BOG at vfl level?

The problem with VFL level is it has slipped even lower in standard since covid, resources at clubs are stretched to the limit. Someone like Sharman looks like a millionaire at VFL level but looks real ordinary in the AFL, same buttler, can put it into cruze controll at VFL level and kick a bag but gets found out in the AFL.

[Teflon]

Newnes - still getting games at Carlton

Lonie - not terrible

Weller - more than serviceable for a few years

We didn’t have a great list though

Didn’t Butler earn his spot with a BOG at vfl level?

The problem with VFL level is it has slipped even lower in standard since covid, resources at clubs are stretched to the limit. Someone like Sharman looks like a millionaire at VFL level but looks real ordinary in the AFL, same buttler, can put it into cruze controll at VFL level and kick a bag but gets found out in the AFL.

7 games and you’re calling Sharman bust?
You must be Pelchen with that knowledge..

[B.M]

Are you saying Newnes didn’t play well at StK

Just because someone is a supporter whipping boy, doesn’t mean they were actually poor
See; Seb Ross

[spert]

King is highly talented as is Higgins and Butler, but they played very lazy unaccountable footy the other night, as did Jones in the middle.

[BringBackMadDog]

The use of him staggers me?

He is 6’8” and 95kg

He is being asked to play as the deepest forward (anchor) and contest deep and bring it to ground

He ends up stationary and wrestling with bigger bodies

Basically if we look at the Geelong model
He is playing the Hawkins role

I think it’s obvious that he should be higher (more space) playing the Cameron role and the ‘bear in the square’ should be the resting ruck

At the moment Membrey is still playing as a 2 (like Tom MCDonald) when again, it’s obvious he should be a 3 (like Bailey Fritch)

I cannot believe the coaching staff is so clueless

In 2009 we had Kosi (Marshall/Ryder) playing deep and the more athletic Riewoldt playing higher

Clearly King should be allowed more room to move and use his legs more

And while we are at it
The kicking to King is atrocious - he needs a run and jump and we stick it on his head?!

Clearly it needs to be kicked out in front of him, with a bit of height so he can run and launch at it!!!!
Not bullet passes that take away his main asset (his reach) and definitely not on his head!

So fkn dumb

I would like to see the following set up

At 50m Membrey hit up lead
At 30 m King lateral lead
At 15m Marshall high ball contest

Smalls
Higgins, Gresham, Billings

100% correct, I lose my s*** every time they kick he ball on top of Kings head, how many times he has to back back into the pack to try and contest. Just put the ball into space in from of him and let him run and jump at it. Surely its not that hard!!

[Scollop]

King is highly talented as is Higgins and Butler, but they played very lazy unaccountable footy the other night, as did Jones in the middle.

I'm not sure if the forward line was the main issue to the loss. We only had 46 inside 50's.

When we got it in there it wasn't graceful and it wasn't very productive either

We played lazy as a team, but also too many individuals trying to do too much and the mids don't share the footy.

The stats don't lie. There's evidence that too many players didn't tackle, didn't chase and didn't work hard to win the footy back

https://www.afl.com.au/afl/matches/3922#player-stats

[Crossy66]

King is highly talented as is Higgins and Butler, but they played very lazy unaccountable footy the other night, as did Jones in the middle.

I'm not sure if the forward line was the main issue to the loss. We only had 46 inside 50's.

When we got it in there it wasn't graceful and it wasn't very productive either

We played lazy as a team, but also too many individuals trying to do too much and the mids don't share the footy.

The stats don't lie. There's evidence that too many players didn't tackle, didn't chase and didn't work hard to win the footy back

https://www.afl.com.au/afl/matches/3922#player-stats

Pretty accurate. We played with no intensity, little pressure. We paid little respect to the opposition, tried to be too clever rather than giving first option.
Best example is Gresham. First half tried to be Dusty and coughed it up atleast 8 times. Start of the third, won most of the clearances, gave the first option and bang- 5 goals.
Our issues are mostly above the shoulders imho.

[shanegrambeau]

King is highly talented as is Higgins and Butler, but they played very lazy unaccountable footy the other night, as did Jones in the middle.

I'm not sure if the forward line was the main issue to the loss. We only had 46 inside 50's.

When we got it in there it wasn't graceful and it wasn't very productive either

We played lazy as a team, but also too many individuals trying to do too much and the mids don't share the footy.

The stats don't lie. There's evidence that too many players didn't tackle, didn't chase and didn't work hard to win the footy back

https://www.afl.com.au/afl/matches/3922#player-stats

Pretty accurate. We played with no intensity, little pressure. We paid little respect to the opposition, tried to be too clever rather than giving first option.
Best example is Gresham. First half tried to be Dusty and coughed it up atleast 8 times. Start of the third, won most of the clearances, gave the first option and bang- 5 goals.
Our issues are mostly above the shoulders imho.

Yep..but add the Max King hyper-focus component.

From AFL's website

St Kilda's inside 50 targets 2022

Max King 116 times he has been hit up as a target in F50, from 13 games
Tim Membrey 45 from 13
Jack Higgins 39 from 10
Marshall 34 from 12
Hayes 18 from 5
Paddy R 11 times from 9

[SAINT-LEE]

King is highly talented as is Higgins and Butler, but they played very lazy unaccountable footy the other night, as did Jones in the middle.

I'm not sure if the forward line was the main issue to the loss. We only had 46 inside 50's.

When we got it in there it wasn't graceful and it wasn't very productive either

We played lazy as a team, but also too many individuals trying to do too much and the mids don't share the footy.

The stats don't lie. There's evidence that too many players didn't tackle, didn't chase and didn't work hard to win the footy back

https://www.afl.com.au/afl/matches/3922#player-stats

Pretty accurate. We played with no intensity, little pressure. We paid little respect to the opposition, tried to be too clever rather than giving first option.
Best example is Gresham. First half tried to be Dusty and coughed it up atleast 8 times. Start of the third, won most of the clearances, gave the first option and bang- 5 goals.
Our issues are mostly above the shoulders imho.

Yep..but add the Max King hyper-focus component.

From AFL's website

St Kilda's inside 50 targets 2022

Max King 116 times he has been hit up as a target in F50, from 13 games
Tim Membrey 45 from 13
Jack Higgins 39 from 10
Marshall 34 from 12
Hayes 18 from 5
Paddy R 11 times from 9

Do you think it's inappropriate for a big marking forward to receive the most balls inbound?

He's 51 games into his career. He was drafted to do exactly what it is you're saying is a hyper focus....he wasn't drafted to crumb or bull his way through the midfield or to provide elegant tap work or to defend or to run the wings like the wind ....he was drafted to post up ( using a basketball term) and grab the damn pill when it comes his way, provide leads, take contested marks and kick goals....if that's too much then go be a defender. He's be great as a defender and maybe that's where he really belongs? Maybe they got it wrong as kids and HE was the backman not Ben. Ben's flourishing when healthy in the forward and doesn't seem to have the fear factor Max does...afraid to lead, afraid to smash packs, afraid to kick straight ( unless he's confident his opponent is weak...then he's Plugga)

I do agree he's different than Riewoldt. He was unfairly handed the mantle of the greatest marking
forwards... Riewoldts first three seasons he played 49 games total and his third season he only kicked 30 goals (17 behind) from 22 games. So Max IS doing better than St Nick in that regard...but Nick was fierce from the get go, really keen to mark everytime the ball was near.
Nick had Fraser, Koschitze ( he was new himself but played most games so was added support), Everitt, Hall and Loewe there to mentor, guide and protect him.

So it's been a different game no doubt for Max.
But often he looks to be playing in the wrong position, whether it's coached, strategy or error I don't know. He seems very hesitant about 50% of the time to leave the spot marked on the grass and provide a lead...then the other 50% he kills it ...is it he's more confident when he's facing weaker opponent or the structure is providing support from Hayes, Membrey, Ryder/Marshall?

Something is seriously wrong though in the forward line and the mids...don't get me started ....last time I brought it up I got my head ripped off on here by the "in the know" telling me how great the small forwards and mids were performing...yet it wasn't true, they were only doing basics against weaker opponents and poor game plans. As soon as they faced stronger opponents theyve crumbled ( no tackling, no second efforts, no contest, no marking, no kicks to advantage into F50).

[Crossy66]

King is highly talented as is Higgins and Butler, but they played very lazy unaccountable footy the other night, as did Jones in the middle.

I'm not sure if the forward line was the main issue to the loss. We only had 46 inside 50's.

When we got it in there it wasn't graceful and it wasn't very productive either

We played lazy as a team, but also too many individuals trying to do too much and the mids don't share the footy.

The stats don't lie. There's evidence that too many players didn't tackle, didn't chase and didn't work hard to win the footy back

https://www.afl.com.au/afl/matches/3922#player-stats

Pretty accurate. We played with no intensity, little pressure. We paid little respect to the opposition, tried to be too clever rather than giving first option.
Best example is Gresham. First half tried to be Dusty and coughed it up atleast 8 times. Start of the third, won most of the clearances, gave the first option and bang- 5 goals.
Our issues are mostly above the shoulders imho.

Yep..but add the Max King hyper-focus component.

From AFL's website

St Kilda's inside 50 targets 2022

Max King 116 times he has been hit up as a target in F50, from 13 games
Tim Membrey 45 from 13
Jack Higgins 39 from 10
Marshall 34 from 12
Hayes 18 from 5
Paddy R 11 times from 9

Do you think it's inappropriate for a big marking forward to receive the most balls inbound?

He's 51 games into his career. He was drafted to do exactly what it is you're saying is a hyper focus....he wasn't drafted to crumb or bull his way through the midfield or to provide elegant tap work or to defend or to run the wings like the wind ....he was drafted to post up ( using a basketball term) and grab the damn pill when it comes his way, provide leads, take contested marks and kick goals....if that's too much then go be a defender. He's be great as a defender and maybe that's where he really belongs? Maybe they got it wrong as kids and HE was the backman not Ben. Ben's flourishing when healthy in the forward and doesn't seem to have the fear factor Max does...afraid to lead, afraid to smash packs, afraid to kick straight ( unless he's confident his opponent is weak...then he's Plugga)

A tad harsh Lee! Certainly Max is not the player we know he will be. But trajectory is good. Needs some more physical maturity and kick consistency.
Looking at Friday's game, most times, bombers had one on ones in our forward line, so mids just bombed at the biggest target they could see.
The third QTR showed what happens when you win clearances, give first option and enter the50 at speed- very difficult to defend!