Is the King/Gardiner combination robbing us of flexibility?

[cwrcyn]

Okay, we needed ruckmen. We all acknowledge that.

However, there have been times this season when both Gardiner and King have played, and I have occasionally thought that although it's good to have two guys who have big bodies and know how to ruck, has it robbed us of an additional midfielder during these games?

At the moment, I'd love to see a Gardiner/Blake combination in the ruck, as Blake has the aerobic capacity to be an important link man and be that extra midfielder when the ball hits the ground.

Unfotunately, with Maguire's injury, Blake will need to be used in defense for much of the season (and he's done okay in that role do far).

With the Gardiner/King combination, it's mostly one on, one off, and it reduces our ability to rest midfielders during games. it's a tricky one for the coach - very much caught in-between.

With Blake having to take key defensive duties at the moment, my point is fairly irrelevant, but if Maguire was fit and firing, could any of you see the value of having Blake rucking with Gardiner?

Some of you will instantly think of Just Koschitzke as the second ruck option, but looking at his time in the ruck this season, there has been a direct correlation between him being in the ruck and us getting smashed in the midfield. For me, Kosi is, and never will be, an effective tap ruckman. Blake has shown that he can hold his own and be a useful link man in the process.

[Winmarvellous]

I actually prefer them both on-field, with Gardiner throwing his weight around as a resting forward.

[plugger66]

I actually prefer them both on-field, with Gardiner throwing his weight around as a resting forward.

Hasnt taken a mark all year and dont think he has kicked a goal. would make the forward line even slower. Has to rest on the bench.

[st.byron]

I can see where you're coming from but can't really see Jason Blake, all respect to him, making that much difference in the midfield.
I prefer having two big ruckmen in the side. I think it's a better balance than only having one.
If you did drop King to use Blake as a second ruckman, which I don't think is the go, but if you did, who would you bring in in his place?

[cwrcyn]

Xavier Clarke or Steven Baker.

It would be handy to add one of those two guys to our midfield at the moment, without sacrificing another midifelder who's alreday in the team. It would mean an extra 7 or 8 minutes rest per game for the likes of Ball, Dal Santo, Hayes, and Harvey. We might see some fresher legs in the second half of games. Every little bit counts.

[Wollongong_saint]

I actually prefer them both on-field, with Gardiner throwing his weight around as a resting forward.

Hasnt taken a mark all year and dont think he has kicked a goal. would make the forward line even slower. Has to rest on the bench.

He took a good mark in the forward line on Sunday and kicked a few goals early in the year if I remember. King also kicked a goal or two. I think give them time to get a few games together and the combo will work well. Better than the Knobel/Blake, Ackland/Blake, Kosi/Rix combos we have had over the last few years!

[Mr Magic]

I actually prefer them both on-field, with Gardiner throwing his weight around as a resting forward.

Hasnt taken a mark all year and dont think he has kicked a goal. would make the forward line even slower. Has to rest on the bench.

He took a good mark in the forward line on Sunday and kicked a few goals early in the year if I remember. King also kicked a goal or two. I think give them time to get a few games together and the combo will work well. Better than the Knobel/Blake, Ackland/Blake, Kosi/Rix combos we have had over the last few years!

According to the AFL Stats he's had the following in the 6 games he's played this year

Kicks - 34
Marks - 25
Handballs - 23
Goals - 0
Behinds - 2
Hitouts - 98
Frees For - 6
Frees Against - 5

[Moccha]

I actually prefer them both on-field, with Gardiner throwing his weight around as a resting forward.

Hasnt taken a mark all year and dont think he has kicked a goal. would make the forward line even slower. Has to rest on the bench.

Gardi loves u too Plugger!

He especially loves your optimism

[st.byron]

Xavier Clarke or Steven Baker.

It would be handy to add one of those two guys to our midfield at the moment, without sacrificing another midifelder who's alreday in the team. It would mean an extra 7 or 8 minutes rest per game for the likes of Ball, Dal Santo, Hayes, and Harvey. We might see some fresher legs in the second half of games. Every little bit counts.

X and Bakes are automatic ins if fit IMO. Wouldn't drop the big guys though, would be more inclined to leave out Birss and Blake from the team to play the Dogs than leave out one of the big guys. Bakes can slot into the backline and X is a better option than Birss. forward or in the midfield.
Can see your point about additional run, but we badly needed ruckmen to give our mids a level playing field at contests. Would be robbing Peter to pay Paul to take one of the ruckmen out I reckon.

[iceman]

saw glimpses of what two experienced ruckman can achieve last week.

Ive got no problems with Gardiner shooting to the forward line for 5 minutes when king comes on, unfortunately i have noticed the few times he has done so we have struggled to penetrate deep. But worth persisting, if he can slot 1 or 2 a game it would be a huge bonus.

Gardiner's attitude and work rate this year has been outstanding, and well worth the investment.

[bigcarl]

if we had maguire in the team and didn't need blake down back then, yes, it would give us more flexibility.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

if we had maguire in the team and didn't need blake down back then, yes, it would give us more flexibility.

ill prob get flamed for this but what exactly has Goose done post broken leg to prove hes a more worthy inclusion then Blake ?? in all honesty with the form goose was showing i would have blake in the team over him

[howlinwolf]

In the games we have had both King and Gardiner in the ruck we have really done well in tapouts. We have a quality engine room and getting this many tapouts has to be a bonus.
Blake gives his all. I like him for that but he gets smashed in the ruck against the big guys like Sandilands etc.
I prefer to see both King and Gardiner playing.
Besides, Gardi is improving each week. Who knows where it'll take him.

It makes you wonder how we could have gone in 2004 and 2005 with King and Gardiner in the side.

[yipper]

I actually prefer them both on-field, with Gardiner throwing his weight around as a resting forward.

Hasnt taken a mark all year and dont think he has kicked a goal. would make the forward line even slower. Has to rest on the bench.

Taken 25 actually, and has shown surprising mobility for such a big man. His tap ruck work has been outstanding.

[Saintgaz]

Blake gives his all. I like him for that but he gets smashed in the ruck against the big guys like Sandilands etc.

Most ruckmen get smashed in the ruck contests by Sandilands. But Freo lose more clearances, so maybe it's worth just putting anyone against him and working of his taps?

[Sobraz]

I would drop King (surprised he is always named as no.1 ruck with Gards on the bench) and bring in McEvoy..

I'd play Gards as the no.1 ruck and use McEvoy for about 25% time in the ruck and 40% forward... Gardiner to rest on the pine... McEvoy is not a skinny kid, he is a big lad who can easily match it, size wise, in the AFL...

Time to fast-track his development as he has a super amount of upside... Gards has been great all year and quickly getting better... Deserves the no.1 spot...

As for the OP, wouldnt play Blake in the ruck... Wouldnt play him at all if Goose were fit.. But with his injury, back is his only option...

I'd personally play Blake at fullback, right on the last line... Not doing the kicking in's tho, ofcourse..

[mightysainters]

I actually prefer them both on-field, with Gardiner throwing his weight around as a resting forward.

Hasnt taken a mark all year and dont think he has kicked a goal. would make the forward line even slower. Has to rest on the bench.

He has taken numerous good marks leading up to the flank or wing actually... have been quite impressed... took many good marks against collingwood and in other games

[evertonfc]

For the moment, I don't think it's an argument worth having.

Last week showed how important it is to have two competitive ruckmen.

[Mr Magic]

I would drop King (surprised he is always named as no.1 ruck with Gards on the bench) and bring in McEvoy..

I'd play Gards as the no.1 ruck and use McEvoy for about 25% time in the ruck and 40% forward... Gardiner to rest on the pine... McEvoy is not a skinny kid, he is a big lad who can easily match it, size wise, in the AFL...

Time to fast-track his development as he has a super amount of upside... Gards has been great all year and quickly getting better... Deserves the no.1 spot...

As for the OP, wouldnt play Blake in the ruck... Wouldnt play him at all if Goose were fit.. But with his injury, back is his only option...

I'd personally play Blake at fullback, right on the last line... Not doing the kicking in's tho, ofcourse..

In my mind there is no question that the Club has a plan in place for Ruckmen in the future.
They rookie listed LVR last year, Scholarshipped theen rookie listed Genghis Kahn and selected Big Mac with their first pick in last years national draft. ALl 3 would be considered ruck options for teh future. They then went out and secured probably the best regards Ruck Coach in Simon Madden.

I'm sure he will have a big say in when Big Mac is ready to take the huge step of playing AFL (injuries aside).

[Otiman]

Both King and Gardiner are playing 56 to 57% time on ground, this essentially means we're playing with 21 men, and other rotations are suffering.

Although having King/Gardiner at 80% in the ruck, and relieved by Koschitzke would be a great idea in principle, we're having to nurse these injury prone guys through the season.

[bergholt]

Gardiner and King

Round 1:
10+9 d, 2+5 m, 0.1+0.0, 0+3 t, 13+16 ho, 1+0 i50, 3/1+4/0 f

Round 2:
12+10 d, 8+3 m, 0.0+2.0, 1+1 t, 20+18 ho, 3+1 i50, 0/1+0/2 f

Round 3 - King only:
12 d, 2 m, 0.0, 3 t, 19 ho, 0 i50, 3/3 f

Round 4 - King only:
17 d, 3 m, 0.1, 2 t, 23 ho, 1 i50, 3/1 f

Round 5 - King only:
8 d, 2 m, 1.0, 2 t, 18 ho, 1 i50, 1/2 f

Round 7 - Gardiner only:
3 d, 1 m, 0.0, 0 t, 15 ho, 0 i50, 0/0 f

Round 8:
15+3 d, 9+0 m, 0.0+0.0, 0+1 t, 12+23 ho, 1+0 a, 5+1 i50, 1/0+0/1 f

Round 9:
9+9 d, 2+2 m, 0.1+0.0, 0+0 t, 17+11 ho, 1+0 a, 1+0 i50, 1/1+1/1 f

Round 10:
8+8 d, 3+3 m, 0.0+0.0, 1+1 t, 21+18 ho, 1+0 a, 1+0 i50, 1/2+0/3 f

Combined averages, when they both play:

19+22+18+19+16 = 18.8 disposals
7+11+9+4+6 = 7.4 marks
0.1+2.0+0.0+0.1+0.0 = 0.4 goals, 0.4 behinds
3+2+1+0+2 = 1.6 tackles
29+38+35+28+39 = 33.8 hitouts
0+0+1+1+1 = 0.6 assists
1+4+6+1+1 = 2.6 inside 50s
7/1+0/3+1/1+2/2+1/5 = 1.2 frees for, 1.4 frees against

That's not amazing combined. 19 touches and 7 or 8 marks is about what I'd hope for one good ruckman, but it's costing us a spot on the bench. I'm with GT and Healy, this week, in saying that they're generally a bit useless. But the games where tap-work actually makes a difference, then it makes a big difference. So I'm not quite sure.

Hopefully they can get a bit of form and fitness, and then combined performances each match should be more like:

25-30 disposals
10-15 marks
1-2 goals
2-3 tackles
25-40 hitouts
0-2 assists
3-5 inside 50s

[plugger66]

I actually prefer them both on-field, with Gardiner throwing his weight around as a resting forward.

Hasnt taken a mark all year and dont think he has kicked a goal. would make the forward line even slower. Has to rest on the bench.

Gardi loves u too Plugger!

He especially loves your optimism

Did I say he couldnt play. No. Said he cannot play forward and I think nearly all would agree with that.

[saintsRrising]

Both King and Gardiner are playing 56 to 57% time on ground, this essentially means we're playing with 21 men, and other rotations are suffering.

.

Most ruckmen have relatively low TOG.

At present ours are probably a bit lower than many as the fitness staff are managing their condition.

Ottens in his first game back last week had a very low TOG.

[Otiman]

Both King and Gardiner are playing 56 to 57% time on ground, this essentially means we're playing with 21 men, and other rotations are suffering.

.

Most ruckmen have relatively low TOG.

Yes, but if, for example, we have King and Gardiner alternating in the team on a weekly basis, and playing ~65% TOG, switching with Koschitzke (who himself should have ~85%+ TOG, we can significantly reduce the "bench time" wasted by our ruckmen, freeing up that time for other mids that can boost our performance.

Of course, you have to weigh up the option of (King/Gardiner + Koschitzke + Extra rotations) vs (King + Gardiner + Minimal rotations) from a football perspective, given that Koschitzke is not as good a tap ruckman as the other two.

[bigcarl]

if we had maguire in the team and didn't need blake down back then, yes, it would give us more flexibility.

ill prob get flamed for this but what exactly has Goose done post broken leg to prove hes a more worthy inclusion then Blake ?? in all honesty with the form goose was showing i would have blake in the team over him

i like them both, actually.

at his best, goose probably shades blake ... but as you point out, will might never see goose at his best again.