Saints be praised - Herald Sun Article 20/3

[SainterK]

DAVID Armitage might try a blind turn and a quick getaway the next time someone thrusts a tape recorder at him. His coach Ross Lyon, shrewd enough never to talk down the opposition, has at least twice moved to clarify comments made by his young midfielder last month.

"We're taking nothing for granted, but Ross said how we've got a good draw and that we don't want to get off to a mediocre start," Armitage told the Sunday Herald Sun.

Lyon has stressed the comments were taken out of context. Regardless, it seems Armitage might have innocently gone a little too far.

And, just quietly, you can understand where he was coming from. Any fan not too superstitious to look beyond week one of the season would be salivating about the Saints' chances.

The widely held belief is the Victorian teams will dominate this year, leaving the interstaters as stragglers.

And the Saints have five interstaters in a row to kick off the season: Sydney (H), Adelaide (A), West Coast (H), Fremantle (H) and Port Adelaide (A).

Yes, "Armo", it is a good draw.

Sydney, West Coast and Fremantle at Docklands early. You've got to like your chances there.

No one likes travelling to AAMI Stadium and Port could be a bolter this year, but neither road trip is as scary as it once was.

Having seen three of St Kilda's four pre-season games, they are up and about. Well drilled and as ready as anyone.

That means you can pencil in four wins in the first five rounds. Port is the only loss.

Given St Kilda's recent history of turning at the halfway point in the 4-7 to 5-6 range, a 4-1 start will be massive.

From there, the Saints have the talent to make the finals, as long as their slightly flimsy depth isn't tested by injury.

They still have a dearth of exciting kids, but their top end is top class.

Nick Riewoldt is a superstar. Sam Fisher isn't far behind. Brendon Goddard looks set for a massive season. Lenny Hayes gets forgotten far too often.

And if Nick Dal Santo has any pride, it would have been pricked big time by the criticism last year. Expect improvement from him, too.

But the buzz player at St Kilda is Luke Ball.

Lyon is genuinely excited about Ball's progress. He can run freely again and his kicking penetration is back to somewhere near his best.

Ball looks considerably lighter, but has lost none of his grunt factor.

In a practice match against Richmond at Shepparton a fortnight ago, he had nine clearances in the first half. Handy work in a warm-up game.

The Saints have pledged to kick more goals and put their better players in more dangerous spots.

If Ball stands up, and newcomer Farren Ray and Leigh Montagna can add support, the Saints will have more options this year.

Justin Koschitzke has looked rusty through the pre-season, but is always a threat as a deep forward. Stephen Milne will be Stephen Milne again. Underestimate him at your peril.

The ruck duo of Steven King and Michael Gardiner also look good. If they both avoid injury, and it is a big if, the Saints will often get first use.

Both missed the club's practice match last Friday against Port and it showed. The Saints were smashed in the clearances.

Down back is more of a worry. Max Hudghton's calf is a concern. They can be nagging injuries and it's the last thing a player beyond 30 needs to start the year.

Matt Maguire, the Saints' No. 2 tall defender, is also underdone and not ready.

That puts added pressure on Jason Blake and Zac Dawson. It also means that the plan to play Fisher in midfield or up forward has to be put on hold.

Steven Baker back to take the small forwards is a massive plus, though.

So with a favourable draw and a bit of luck with injury, there is no reason why the Saints can't push for top four again.

Ray, Ball and Baker are big additions to last year's team that lost to Geelong in the preliminary final.

And remember, the Saints were good enough to roll Collingwood easily in a semi-final.

[chook23]

did we play Geelong in prelim!

In relation to early games

Thinking you have a good draw spells danger.

[bobmurray]

From there, the Saints have the talent to make the finals, as long as their slightly flimsy depth isn't tested by injury.

They still have a dearth of exciting kids, but their top end is top class.

A dearth of quality kids...who's fault is that then....

[chook23]

GT

RL
still have time to produce but running out....

this year crop too early

High draft picks have not helped

[Teflon]

Its not GT's fault according to Shaggy & Dodgy (was there a song like that...)

According to these football gods the list is as good as she was in 04/05 - its all just "underachieving good players" and a coach who cant get the best out of them.

Gonna be funny if Goddard/Ball tear it up this year.....

But seriously the talent of our kids is thin - lets face it we spent years playing round with Brooks, Raymonds, Murrays, Fergusons, McGoughs, Acklands and theres more.

We got a great crop of picks early 00's, came good in 03/04 and started to dream of flags instead of really focussing (and spending money) on recruiting and stockpiling talent that would see support for the likes of Riewoldt for years. Now we are 1 injury away from implosion most weeks.

IMHO this is THE greatest failings of Grant Thomas AND Rod Butters (and Rods my dad so thats not easy to say/type).

I only wish the money for the "person buidling junkets" to South Africa, England etc went into player development (and injury management) cause clearly we dropped the ball here.

We are now paying for that legacy and its why IMO Lyons job is that much harder (but even he is fast reaching a point where he needs some of HIS selected kids to step up).

[casey scorp]

did we play Geelong in prelim!

He obviously has a poor grasp of history. It's been a while since we've lost a Preliminary Final to a losing Grand Finalist - 1939 in fact. Since then it's taken a Premier to knock us off in the PF.

[plugger66]

Its not GT's fault according to Shaggy & Dodgy (was there a song like that...)

According to these football gods the list is as good as she was in 04/05 - its all just "underachieving good players" and a coach who cant get the best out of them.

Gonna be funny if Goddard/Ball tear it up this year.....

But seriously the talent of our kids is thin - lets face it we spent years playing round with Brooks, Raymonds, Murrays, Fergusons, McGoughs, Acklands and theres more.

We got a great crop of picks early 00's, came good in 03/04 and started to dream of flags instead of really focussing (and spending money) on recruiting and stockpiling talent that would see support for the likes of Riewoldt for years. Now we are 1 injury away from implosion most weeks.

IMHO this is THE greatest failings of Grant Thomas AND Rod Butters (and Rods my dad so thats not easy to say/type).

I only wish the money for the "person buidling junkets" to South Africa, England etc went into player development (and injury management) cause clearly we dropped the ball here.

We are now paying for that legacy and its why IMO Lyons job is that much harder (but even he is fast reaching a point where he needs some of HIS selected kids to step up).

Before you start quoting how we got poor recruits under Gt and spent to much time on others at least wait a couple of years to make sure we get at least one decent recruit under RL. It is his third year and we have recrited plenty of duds already under him. By the way some of the recruits under Gt and RL are not usually the coaches fault. That is what recriters are for.

[stinger]

Its not GT's fault according to Shaggy & Dodgy (was there a song like that...)

According to these football gods the list is as good as she was in 04/05 - its all just "underachieving good players" and a coach who cant get the best out of them.

Gonna be funny if Goddard/Ball tear it up this year.....

But seriously the talent of our kids is thin - lets face it we spent years playing round with Brooks, Raymonds, Murrays, Fergusons, McGoughs, Acklands and theres more.

We got a great crop of picks early 00's, came good in 03/04 and started to dream of flags instead of really focussing (and spending money) on recruiting and stockpiling talent that would see support for the likes of Riewoldt for years. Now we are 1 injury away from implosion most weeks.

IMHO this is THE greatest failings of Grant Thomas AND Rod Butters (and Rods my dad so thats not easy to say/type).

I only wish the money for the "person buidling junkets" to South Africa, England etc went into player development (and injury management) cause clearly we dropped the ball here.

We are now paying for that legacy and its why IMO Lyons job is that much harder (but even he is fast reaching a point where he needs some of HIS selected kids to step up).

credit were credit's due.......bloody good post.....

[MC Gusto]

not a bad article yes

[InkerSaint]

IMHO this is THE greatest failings of Grant Thomas AND Rod Butters (and Rods my dad so thats not easy to say/type).

Good post, and I agree with your comments... but something's bugging me.

When you say Rod's your dad... is this figurative or literal?

To cut to the chase... are there two ways to spell "Butterss"?

[meher baba]

Its not GT's fault according to Shaggy & Dodgy (was there a song like that...)

According to these football gods the list is as good as she was in 04/05 - its all just "underachieving good players" and a coach who cant get the best out of them.

Gonna be funny if Goddard/Ball tear it up this year.....

But seriously the talent of our kids is thin - lets face it we spent years playing round with Brooks, Raymonds, Murrays, Fergusons, McGoughs, Acklands and theres more.

We got a great crop of picks early 00's, came good in 03/04 and started to dream of flags instead of really focussing (and spending money) on recruiting and stockpiling talent that would see support for the likes of Riewoldt for years. Now we are 1 injury away from implosion most weeks.

IMHO this is THE greatest failings of Grant Thomas AND Rod Butters (and Rods my dad so thats not easy to say/type).

I only wish the money for the "person buidling junkets" to South Africa, England etc went into player development (and injury management) cause clearly we dropped the ball here.

We are now paying for that legacy and its why IMO Lyons job is that much harder (but even he is fast reaching a point where he needs some of HIS selected kids to step up).

I agree with your last point Teffers, but I think that any fair assessment of the past few seasons has been that the tendency to go for "top up" players and rejects from other clubs rather than to develop younger talent has been getting stronger and stronger at our club.

Yes, the decisions to recruit Watts and McGough were mistakes, and Brooks in retrospect cost us too much and ultimately didn't work out. Ackland and Murray were ok at first and didn't cost much.

I thought Raymond was recruited simply because we were compelled to use a third draft pick and there wasn't anyone left. As for Ferguson, I personally wouldn't have redrafted him in 2006, but GT was gone by then.

But surely the tendency to go for the rejects of other clubs (or even to ressurect our own players of dubious ability) rather than look to develop young talent has reached its zenith under Lyon: Birss, M Gardiner, M Clarke, Attard, Ferguson in 2007; King, C Gardiner, Schneider, Dempster, Gehrig in 2008 (and Fiora's contract renewed); Ray, Begley, McQualter and Dawson (and Gwilt and L Fisher retained) in 2009. And then there's Clinton Jones, who was an AFL debutant in 2007 but who has spent years trying to break into AFL and is in fact older than many of our other regulars (Dal, Ball, Goddard, Schneider and Gram, to name but a few)

Meanwhile, the 6 younger draftees in the 2006 and 2007 drafts (Armo, Howard, Allen, McEvoy, Steven and Connor) have played a grand total of 23 AFL games among them over two seasons: 16 of these have been played by Armo.

So, to my eye (and I'm trying to be objective), the club now appears to be far less interested in recruiting and developing young talent than was the case in the GT/Butterss era. Our approach now looks more like that of the Sydney Swans: use late draft picks, the rookie list and trades to churn a lot of "second hand" players with known abilities through the club to see which of them might suit our needs.

[Teflon]

Its not GT's fault according to Shaggy & Dodgy (was there a song like that...)

According to these football gods the list is as good as she was in 04/05 - its all just "underachieving good players" and a coach who cant get the best out of them.

Gonna be funny if Goddard/Ball tear it up this year.....

But seriously the talent of our kids is thin - lets face it we spent years playing round with Brooks, Raymonds, Murrays, Fergusons, McGoughs, Acklands and theres more.

We got a great crop of picks early 00's, came good in 03/04 and started to dream of flags instead of really focussing (and spending money) on recruiting and stockpiling talent that would see support for the likes of Riewoldt for years. Now we are 1 injury away from implosion most weeks.

IMHO this is THE greatest failings of Grant Thomas AND Rod Butters (and Rods my dad so thats not easy to say/type).

I only wish the money for the "person buidling junkets" to South Africa, England etc went into player development (and injury management) cause clearly we dropped the ball here.

We are now paying for that legacy and its why IMO Lyons job is that much harder (but even he is fast reaching a point where he needs some of HIS selected kids to step up).

Before you start quoting how we got poor recruits under Gt and spent to much time on others at least wait a couple of years to make sure we get at least one decent recruit under RL. It is his third year and we have recrited plenty of duds already under him. By the way some of the recruits under Gt and RL are not usually the coaches fault. That is what recriters are for.

I think you need to learn to read - see my last sentence on Lyons recruitment efforts ...before you start posting Id suggest...

[rodgerfox]

So GT didn't get any good kids?

Yet we just read an article that talks about the top class of the list being 'top class'.

This 'top class' were the kids that GT developed.

Isn't that what a coach is meant to do?

[Teflon]

Its not GT's fault according to Shaggy & Dodgy (was there a song like that...)

According to these football gods the list is as good as she was in 04/05 - its all just "underachieving good players" and a coach who cant get the best out of them.

Gonna be funny if Goddard/Ball tear it up this year.....

But seriously the talent of our kids is thin - lets face it we spent years playing round with Brooks, Raymonds, Murrays, Fergusons, McGoughs, Acklands and theres more.

We got a great crop of picks early 00's, came good in 03/04 and started to dream of flags instead of really focussing (and spending money) on recruiting and stockpiling talent that would see support for the likes of Riewoldt for years. Now we are 1 injury away from implosion most weeks.

IMHO this is THE greatest failings of Grant Thomas AND Rod Butters (and Rods my dad so thats not easy to say/type).

I only wish the money for the "person buidling junkets" to South Africa, England etc went into player development (and injury management) cause clearly we dropped the ball here.

We are now paying for that legacy and its why IMO Lyons job is that much harder (but even he is fast reaching a point where he needs some of HIS selected kids to step up).

I agree with your last point Teffers, but I think that any fair assessment of the past few seasons has been that the tendency to go for "top up" players and rejects from other clubs rather than to develop younger talent has been getting stronger and stronger at our club.

Yes, the decisions to recruit Watts and McGough were mistakes, and Brooks in retrospect cost us too much and ultimately didn't work out. Ackland and Murray were ok at first and didn't cost much.

I thought Raymond was recruited simply because we were compelled to use a third draft pick and there wasn't anyone left. As for Ferguson, I personally wouldn't have redrafted him in 2006, but GT was gone by then.

But surely the tendency to go for the rejects of other clubs (or even to ressurect our own players of dubious ability) rather than look to develop young talent has reached its zenith under Lyon: Birss, M Gardiner, M Clarke, Attard, Ferguson in 2007; King, C Gardiner, Schneider, Dempster, Gehrig in 2008 (and Fiora's contract renewed); Ray, Begley, McQualter and Dawson (and Gwilt and L Fisher retained) in 2009. And then there's Clinton Jones, who was an AFL debutant in 2007 but who has spent years trying to break into AFL and is in fact older than many of our other regulars (Dal, Ball, Goddard, Schneider and Gram, to name but a few)

Meanwhile, the 6 younger draftees in the 2006 and 2007 drafts (Armo, Howard, Allen, McEvoy, Steven and Connor) have played a grand total of 23 AFL games among them over two seasons: 16 of these have been played by Armo.

So, to my eye (and I'm trying to be objective), the club now appears to be far less interested in recruiting and developing young talent than was the case in the GT/Butterss era. Our approach now looks more like that of the Sydney Swans: use late draft picks, the rookie list and trades to churn a lot of "second hand" players with known abilities through the club to see which of them might suit our needs.[/quote]

***************

Our approach has nothing to do with Sydney and again its a poor throwback to people saying "Ross Lyon is Paul Roos in drag" ...not true Im afraid.

Our approach is as you state - to use the rookie list and shrewed later picks (anyone suggesting the drafting of Stephen King as a failure needs their head examined). Why do this? - cause our draft picks and where we finish dictate this is the way we have to go.

The real question is: what early picks has Ross Lyon given up SO FAR and that has become a failure?

Not King, Gardiner, etc???...thats an interesting analysis to Grants model of "it was all John Beveridge....I wasnt even home at the time" (whoever buys that - and Plugger will - is in fairy land)... immediately I can recall Brooks/Watts as absolute monty's we lost early picks for???

I think you will find also through this approach - and the playing of Geary, Eddy, Jones, Armitage, Stevens, McEvoy etc that Lyon has introduced far more youth in his short time than in Grants last 2 years...hes had to.

As for Howard...I think you may also find he wasnt a Lyon selection if I recall correctly?

[Teflon]

So GT didn't get any good kids?

Yet we just read an article that talks about the top class of the list being 'top class'.

This 'top class' were the kids that GT developed.

Isn't that what a coach is meant to do?

We also just read an article that said GT left it all to his core with no focus on providing support fopr them..

Funny how we read what we want....

[Go Sainters Go]

The 2008 drafts, lets be honest, was the first real opportunity for Ross to select the players he wanted to form a squad for the future. Finishing 4th didn't make it easy either. However, I reckon the Club is in great shape for the future when the list of recruits is analysed.
We have 10 x 18 year olds - Cahill, Heyne, Lynch, McGarry, McGrath, Simpkin, Smith, Stanley, Steven and Tungatulam. They will be nurtured through the system, some will become great players, some won't.
We have 4 x 19 year olds - Conners, Gaertner, Haretuku and McEvoy.
We have 2 x 20 year olds - Armitage and Geary, already played senior football and hopefully will step up this year.
We have 3 x 21 year olds - Eddy, Allen and Howard.
That makes a total of 19 players 21 or younger. That to me is a pretty good position to be in and they should put pressure on the older players to perform well.
We are in pretty good shape I would suggest

[desertsaint]

The 2008 drafts, lets be honest, was the first real opportunity for Ross to select the players he wanted to form a squad for the future. Finishing 4th didn't make it easy either. However, I reckon the Club is in great shape for the future when the list of recruits is analysed.
We have 10 x 18 year olds - Cahill, Heyne, Lynch, McGarry, McGrath, Simpkin, Smith, Stanley, Steven and Tungatulam. They will be nurtured through the system, some will become great players, some won't.
We have 4 x 19 year olds - Conners, Gaertner, Haretuku and McEvoy.
We have 2 x 20 year olds - Armitage and Geary, already played senior football and hopefully will step up this year.
We have 3 x 21 year olds - Eddy, Allen and Howard.
That makes a total of 19 players 21 or younger. That to me is a pretty good position to be in and they should put pressure on the older players to perform well.
We are in pretty good shape I would suggest

Except that they're all crap!

[Go Sainters Go]

Bit of an expert are you?
How do you know?

[WayneJudson42]

IMHO this is THE greatest failings of Grant Thomas AND Rod Butters (and Rods my dad so thats not easy to say/type).

Is that hard because you have to admit it got it wrong?? Or the fact that it's hard to admit that he's your father??

I only wish the money for the "person buidling junkets" to South Africa, England etc went into player development (and injury management) cause clearly we dropped the ball here.

Not to mention the $1/4 million law suit plus costs.

We are now paying for that legacy and its why IMO Lyons job is that much harder (but even he is fast reaching a point where he needs some of HIS selected kids to step up).

[desertsaint]

Bit of an expert are you?

aren't we all on here?...a 'bit'

"some will become great players"

how do you know?

[BAM! (shhhh)]

So GT didn't get any good kids?

Yet we just read an article that talks about the top class of the list being 'top class'.

This 'top class' were the kids that GT developed.

Isn't that what a coach is meant to do?

We also just read an article that said GT left it all to his core with no focus on providing support fopr them..

Funny how we read what we want....

The only line I read referring to kids was "They still have a dearth of exciting kids, but their top end is top class".

What article are you referring to?

[Go Sainters Go]

Bit of an expert are you?

aren't we all on here?...a 'bit'

"some will become great players"

how do you know?

Well you don't have to be a "smart arse."

[desertsaint]

Bit of an expert are you?

aren't we all on here?...a 'bit'

"some will become great players"

how do you know?

Well you don't have to be a "smart arse."

no you're quite right...it's this bloody waiting! Can't the season just start already!

[markp]

no you're quite right...it's this bloody waiting! Can't the season just start already!

This is the last 'free' weekend.... Bunnings will be flat-out tomorrow.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

gt had two groups of players...the young core and old core

the old core have since departed...the young core are now the core

the new core that is the only core was the group that gt had all his faith in...when someone got injured our poor depth was shown...