Forward set up

LondonSaint · Wed 25 Mar 2009 11:54am

Our forward set up has not worked well ever since the hay days of 04/05, when we had Gehrig, Riewoldt, Milne, Guerra and Hamill all patrolling the forward 50. Gehrig and Riewoldt are the big targets, Milne & Guerra the crumbers with Hamill providing the forward pressure like his life is depending on it. Back then, you don't need our midfield pin pointing a pass to any of our target, a long bomb to forward will often result in a mark or a crumbed goal. I didn't mention Kosi coz he was always injured during this period, so the 3 big targets hardly played together.

Fast Forward 4 years, out of the 5 forwards, we have lost 3. Whilst you can argue schneider effectively replaced Guerra, we are still missing a Gehrig type (fast, but strong leading forward) and an enforcer like Hamill. Kozi is a good pack mark, but is not fast enough to lead and not strong to beat a defender one on one. And since Schneider/Milne are crumbers, no wonder the ball is kicked to Riewoldt all the time, even though he is often double or triple teamed. to me, play Eddy and Clinton Jones is not the solution, yes they can lock the ball in, but to be an effective scoring threat, you need to be natural goal kickers, not taggers with iffy kicking skills, see ebert, rodan from port.

Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of ready make players to plug the hole at the moment. Kosi in my opinion needs to be taught how to play as a forward, not a ruckman resting forward. the number of times he's caught behind a defender is astounding. Apart from Kosi, we really have to develop players such Lynch, Cahill and Heyne who to me are natural forwards. hopefully by the season end, Lynch and Heyne will have graduated to our forward line. For the time being, we can only rely on effective entries into our forward line, this means Dal Santo, Goddard, S Fisher our only 3 top skilled players need to be the ones kicking to the leading forward/s. This is where Harvey the 20 metre pass master is a big loss.

Anyway, that's my rant. Hopefully, our forward line will function a little better than last year.

stinger · Post: # 712866Post **stinger** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 11:56am

good first up post....

Mr X from the West · Wed 25 Mar 2009 1:13pm

LondonSaint wrote:Kozi is a good pack mark, but is not fast enough to lead and not strong to beat a defender one on one.

Don't know about this - Kosi is very quick for a big bloke and is very strong in marking contests.

My feeling is that injures have really hampered Kosi in the past and this year he may have a lot more freedom and will surprise many.

yipper · Post: # 712911Post **yipper** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 1:19pm

Yeah, I still reckon a fully fit Kosi is the wildcard for us. Bloke can take a big mark and kick long distance goals. He is strong no doubt about that. Just maybe the make or break year for Kosi is upon us. Reckon he will surprise a few this year.

rocksolid · Post: # 712915Post **rocksolid** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 1:34pm

I hope you blokes are right about Kosi but looking at him in Shep he seems to have completly lost the ability to read the play!
I hope Iam wrong.

I still don't think we have got over losing Sammy, I wouldn't mind comparing BJs measurements to Sammys'.

I believe he should play foreward all the time

dalboy · Post: # 712927Post **dalboy** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 2:11pm

Players don't lose the ability to read the play....you either have it or don't have it.
Also, you don't need to be super fast to get on a good lead, its about timing and with so much blocking etc going on these days my Grandma could get found on her own at times.

Loyal · Post: # 712931Post **Loyal** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 2:16pm

who needs to read play when you stand taller than a manhattan skyscraper and you have a midfield that compulsively deliver?

kosi was one of the main reasons we did so well last year.
guy is HUGE !!
wish people would get off his back and dals aswell. dal is going to have a huge year as is kosi.
these guys are MASSIVE for us.
name one (1) fullback in the competition who stands taller than kosi......

rocksolid · Post: # 712934Post **rocksolid** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 2:20pm

Also, you don't need to be super fast to get on a good lead, its about timing

Okay then he has lost his TIMING

Loyal · Post: # 712943Post **Loyal** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 2:29pm

bloke has lost nothing.
bloke has gone from good to great.

rocksolid · Post: # 712944Post **rocksolid** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 2:32pm

As I said I hope your right but lets be serious I don't think many would class him as great, great potential perhaps.

fingers · Post: # 712948Post **fingers** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 2:46pm

Loyal wrote:bloke has lost nothing.
bloke has gone from good to great.

Bloke?

Loyal · Post: # 712959Post **Loyal** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 3:07pm

fingers wrote:
Loyal wrote:bloke has lost nothing.
bloke has gone from good to great.
Bloke?

kosi.
bloke is an emerging great of the game.

Saintersss · Post: # 713036Post **Saintersss** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 6:01pm

I think people really do Kosi injustice. He is very important to us and people sometimes just compare him to what he is expected to be.
He kicked 30 odd goals last year while spending a good time in the ruck. And he was very important to our structure, take him out and we look even worse.

I have a good feeling that this year, our forward line will look much better.

plugger66 · Post: # 713051Post **plugger66** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 6:41pm

Loyal wrote:
fingers wrote:
Loyal wrote:bloke has lost nothing.
bloke has gone from good to great.
Bloke?
kosi.
bloke is an emerging great of the game.

What are you on because a few on here could do with a bit.

Red · Post: # 713053Post **Red** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 6:44pm

Game has moved on since 04.

To the top · Post: # 713071Post **To the top** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 7:40pm

I would agree that Kosi is not a natural leading forward - and that is why I do not see him as a full forward.

He also laboured accross the ground at times - and particularly turning - last season but he has spent a lot of time out injured and it takes successive campaigns to put the necessary strength into your legs.

However, a good contested mark he is and more so when delivery is to his advantage side one on one. No one will outmark him in such a contest and his danger deep in attack last season was his contested one on one marking - and he suffered a few howler decisions for out positioning his opponent.

Where the problem is at full forward is that he is known as a superior one on one and pack mark therefore the defensive emphasis is to have a blocker, blocking him from the contest.

This is another reason I would not play him at full forward.

And he is just a couple of centimetres too short (at 197cm) to ruck.

On the proviso that his core leg strength reflects a full season last season and a full pre-season this year, and he runs as they say "on top of the ground", I would have him at (nominally) CHF.

And that will allow the absolute luxury of allowing Riewoldt free rein to showcase his superior skills and fitness around the ground.

That all means we need to identify someone to fill the full forward position, someone with good size, good hands and good pace and "reading" off the mark.

So who can we identify?

Riewoldt is just too valuable, so forget him.

plugger66 · Post: # 713073Post **plugger66** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 7:47pm

To the top wrote:I would agree that Kosi is not a natural leading forward - and that is why I do not see him as a full forward.

He also laboured accross the ground at times - and particularly turning - last season but he has spent a lot of time out injured and it takes successive campaigns to put the necessary strength into your legs.

However, a good contested mark he is and more so when delivery is to his advantage side one on one. No one will outmark him in such a contest and his danger deep in attack last season was his contested one on one marking - and he suffered a few howler decisions for out positioning his opponent.

Where the problem is at full forward is that he is known as a superior one on one and pack mark therefore the defensive emphasis is to have a blocker, blocking him from the contest.

This is another reason I would not play him at full forward.

And he is just a couple of centimetres too short (at 197cm) to ruck.

On the proviso that his core leg strength reflects a full season last season and a full pre-season this year, and he runs as they say "on top of the ground", I would have him at (nominally) CHF.

And that will allow the absolute luxury of allowing Riewoldt free rein to showcase his superior skills and fitness around the ground.

That all means we need to identify someone to fill the full forward position, someone with good size, good hands and good pace and "reading" off the mark.

So who can we identify?

Riewoldt is just too valuable, so forget him.

I doubt we will ever see Kosi at CHB again as he is to slow for that position and as you say he is to slow off the lead to be a FF. I would put Rooy at FF and yes you say he is to valuable but so is 100 goals and if he was to play there nearly full time he may get close to that. Kosi will have to play as a Loewe type CHF but no where near as good.

saint66au · Post: # 713084Post **saint66au** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 8:03pm

The quality of the forward line is important, but its also JUST as important to get it there quickly.

Yes we looked for Roo too often alst year, but far too often we had already had 450 posessions, been forced out wide cos the opposition had strolled thru the corridor and clogged up our 50 while we played kick to kick for 10 minutes. Roo was therefore forced to lead soo wide he ended up marking it sitting on someones lap in the Social Club.

A long kick to an open forward line with room to lead IN THE CORRIDOR will work wonders. Lets Milne/Schneider do their stuff if/when the ball hits the ground without tripping over the entire opposition team

Solar · Post: # 713093Post **Solar** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 8:29pm

plugger66 wrote:
To the top wrote:I would agree that Kosi is not a natural leading forward - and that is why I do not see him as a full forward.

He also laboured accross the ground at times - and particularly turning - last season but he has spent a lot of time out injured and it takes successive campaigns to put the necessary strength into your legs.

However, a good contested mark he is and more so when delivery is to his advantage side one on one. No one will outmark him in such a contest and his danger deep in attack last season was his contested one on one marking - and he suffered a few howler decisions for out positioning his opponent.

Where the problem is at full forward is that he is known as a superior one on one and pack mark therefore the defensive emphasis is to have a blocker, blocking him from the contest.

This is another reason I would not play him at full forward.

And he is just a couple of centimetres too short (at 197cm) to ruck.

On the proviso that his core leg strength reflects a full season last season and a full pre-season this year, and he runs as they say "on top of the ground", I would have him at (nominally) CHF.

And that will allow the absolute luxury of allowing Riewoldt free rein to showcase his superior skills and fitness around the ground.

That all means we need to identify someone to fill the full forward position, someone with good size, good hands and good pace and "reading" off the mark.

So who can we identify?

Riewoldt is just too valuable, so forget him.
I doubt we will ever see Kosi at CHB again as he is to slow for that position and as you say he is to slow off the lead to be a FF. I would put Rooy at FF and yes you say he is to valuable but so is 100 goals and if he was to play there nearly full time he may get close to that. Kosi will have to play as a Loewe type CHF but no where near as good.

what he said

hell if we do the kick it to roo thing at least the 3-1 contest can create a spillage 20 out from goal

BigMart · Post: # 713097Post **BigMart** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 8:49pm

Rotation - it depends on match-ups.......one high and one low, with a medium wandering around.....

WaggaSaint · Post: # 713115Post **WaggaSaint** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 9:39pm

I believe that we don't take enough opportunities to kick from outside 50. We have such magnificent kickers available to us (dal, bj, gram, s.fish, lenny, even matt mcguire when he's been fit), and that would put more pressure on the oppositions defence by giving us that other option.

How many times do we see players such as the above mentioned, kick to a contest when they could clearly have a long range shot.

Obviously, if the opportunity presents itself, kick to a leading forward, but have a shot if you're confident!

If we do want to talk about our 'glory' days in 04, we were a whole lot more keen on shots from outside / on 50 than we have been last few years.

Incidentally, watching Kosi in action in Shep, I've rarely seen a player of his ability so lost and out of touch... sad but true.

bigcarl · Post: # 713126Post **bigcarl** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 9:57pm

Solar wrote:
plugger66 wrote:I doubt we will ever see Kosi at CHB again as he is to slow for that position and as you say he is to slow off the lead to be a FF. I would put Rooy at FF and yes you say he is to valuable but so is 100 goals and if he was to play there nearly full time he may get close to that. Kosi will have to play as a Loewe type CHF but no where near as good.
what he said

hell if we do the kick it to roo thing at least the 3-1 contest can create a spillage 20 out from goal

i'd rather see riewoldt or gilbert at ff than kosi.

as others have pointed out, kosi doesn't lead like a good full forward should.

something like:

hf: gilbert, kosi, dal santo
f: milne, riewoldt, schneider

or

hf: milne, riewoldt, dal santo
f: kosi (second ruck), gilbert, schneider

if gilbert doesn't work out, there are other options including BJ (my preferred ff) and raph.

SaintBot · Post: # 713131Post **SaintBot** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 10:13pm

Solar wrote:
plugger66 wrote:
To the top wrote:I would agree that Kosi is not a natural leading forward - and that is why I do not see him as a full forward.

He also laboured accross the ground at times - and particularly turning - last season but he has spent a lot of time out injured and it takes successive campaigns to put the necessary strength into your legs.

However, a good contested mark he is and more so when delivery is to his advantage side one on one. No one will outmark him in such a contest and his danger deep in attack last season was his contested one on one marking - and he suffered a few howler decisions for out positioning his opponent.

Where the problem is at full forward is that he is known as a superior one on one and pack mark therefore the defensive emphasis is to have a blocker, blocking him from the contest.

This is another reason I would not play him at full forward.

And he is just a couple of centimetres too short (at 197cm) to ruck.

On the proviso that his core leg strength reflects a full season last season and a full pre-season this year, and he runs as they say "on top of the ground", I would have him at (nominally) CHF.

And that will allow the absolute luxury of allowing Riewoldt free rein to showcase his superior skills and fitness around the ground.

That all means we need to identify someone to fill the full forward position, someone with good size, good hands and good pace and "reading" off the mark.

So who can we identify?

Riewoldt is just too valuable, so forget him.
I doubt we will ever see Kosi at CHB again as he is to slow for that position and as you say he is to slow off the lead to be a FF. I would put Rooy at FF and yes you say he is to valuable but so is 100 goals and if he was to play there nearly full time he may get close to that. Kosi will have to play as a Loewe type CHF but no where near as good.
what he said

hell if we do the kick it to roo thing at least the 3-1 contest can create a spillage 20 out from goal

This in my opinion is spot on.

And you know what? Now is the perfect time to put it to test. Koschitzke has had a full preseason with no injury niggles whatsoever as far as I'm concerned. Riewoldt on the other hand has had a constricted preseason and only had limited match fitness two weeks ago against Port Adelaide.

Koschitzke has shown his best form as a resting ruckman, roaming around the forward 50 working with the flow of the football, instead of leading out into the momentum of play. Those who play football will know that running with the play and leading towards it require very different mindsets.

This is why some players who have all the characteristics of say a forward struggle, yet play a more natural game running off the half back line. Enter Koschitzke. Won the Rising Star award as a key defender and has shown amazing talent while working with the flow of the ball as a ruckman. To be honest I've only ever seen him play one really good half of footy out of the square and that was against West Coast in Harvey's 350th.

Riewoldt, true his ability to run and run and mark and lead and run again is quite outstanding. However look at Lance Franklin, one of the best endurance runners in the league for his size playing most his footy in the forward 60m. I don't need to say much on Riewoldt. We all know he would be a magnificent full forward however we worry he may be wasted so deep. Purrrleaaze if it helps the structure of our side considerably and then contributes an extra 1-2 goals from Riewoldt every game then it must be done.

While Riewoldt's match fitness is lower than desirable and Koschitzke ticking all the boxes injury wise however looking out of sorts so deep forward I must repeat; now is the best opportunity for Ross Lyon to at least try this structure.

PS.
My desired forward set up:

HF: S.Gilbert - J.Koschitzke - A.Schneider
FF: S.Milne - N.Riewoldt - S.Baker

Bernard Shakey · Wed 25 Mar 2009 11:37pm

Loyal wrote:who needs to read play when you stand taller than a manhattan skyscraper and you have a midfield that compulsively deliver?

kosi was one of the main reasons we did so well last year.
guy is HUGE !!
wish people would get off his back and dals aswell. dal is going to have a huge year as is kosi.
these guys are MASSIVE for us.
name one (1) fullback in the competition who stands taller than kosi......

The drugs you are on are probably illegal.

Kosi is big, Stephen King is huge.

Kosi did bugger all in getting us to 4th last year.

Kosi has had a good uninterrupted preseason, as he did last year.

I hope he tears the comp apart this year, but he certainly has not gone anywhere near meeting his potential in the last 5 years.

Get real and don't make ridiculous statements.

By the way Setanta O'Hailpin is taller and bigger than Kosi, could be an interesting contest in round 12.

Teflon · Post: # 713153Post **Teflon** » Wed 25 Mar 2009 11:37pm

some really good points here.

Id also like to see Kosi trialled as a roaming CHF with the opportunity to drift in with the ball .....maybe give Roo greater time at FF early in season till he regains his peak fitness.

I know Riewoldt has that Richarsdon ability to run all over the ground and be a weapon (im not convinced Buddy has the tank for that tbh)...maybe its just about when he does that...

Saintbot - Im not sure steve baker is a fwd option....but he may add some "Hamill" esqu (geez I miss having him play...) fwd pressure.

Forward set up

Forward set up

Re: Forward set up