Our backline is a huge issue

[Bluthy]

I don't understand why we've brought Nathan Brown in. He's soon to turn 28. You only bring guys in at that age that have real quality. Brown by all accounts is a shocking kick. He's a bit of an upgrade on Delaney but only just. I see the recruitment of Brown as the first genuine retrograde step under Richo. I can understand us bringing guys like Weller, Savage, Delaney in when we were desperate for big bodied, strong tanked 50+ game players when we traded out/retired a lot of older players and had a lot of babies on the list. But I would have preferred to keep the Lee defender experiment going than Brown. Or try Coughlan in the big league.

Dempster will turn 32 in Jan. All this talk of Demps "getting off the leash" with Carlisle and Brown coming in is pure delusion. He's basically been a shut down, b-grade player his whole career. He's played as a tagger/HBF shut down player most of his career. He segued into more of deep defender role due to our lack of key backs, playing above his height as he learned to the read the flight of the ball really well and improved his marking that made him a fundamental to our team. But he is slow and an average kick - so how he will now "get off the leash" is beyond me.

Carlisle is the Joker in the deck. Could be anything, could be nothing. He's already had multiple surgeries and is a huge ruckmen size unit that will have his body take a toll. From what I've seen he is a bit of a ball chaser. That's not a bad thing as he will have licence to try and mark everything anywhere near him and could be an intercept king.

But we need a backline general to organise the defence. All premiership teams have them. Perhaps that is where Goddard comes in who seems a smart footy player - much more than Carlisle.

I think ideally we should swap Brown and Dempster in the team this year. Having all of Brown, Demps and Gears in the team is a poor kicking back three. If there is a couple of gorrilla forwards in the oppo, then Brown. If they are a bit smaller, then use Demps good ball reading and better kicking.

We need to get the likes of White, Rice, Goddard, Long, Mckenzie in the team to start playing as unit. They are attacking weapons who can use the footy. Dogs were brave backing JJ and Eastonwood early and getting their backline tight as a unit.

But I think Richo thinks we can pinch a flag next year using Brown on the gorrillas. I think it is a huge error. I think Richo has been badly swayed by his Collingwood connection. As a defender Richo has seemed extremely conservative on the backline. As opposed to the forward line where he has seen a min-revolution in having the balls to move Rooey out further to leave space for the new generation. And blooding guys like Dunstand, Acres and Gresham in the midfield. But for the backline, he's loved his comfy old pants again and again.

It really worries me how conservative we are there. The backline is where so many teams start their attacks from. And we have a very bad kicking, slow backline if we play all of Brown, Gears and Demps.

[skeptic]

I do see where you're coming from...

But I think we are stymied to a degree here. Brown to me seemed like a forced and necessary choice. At the end of the day though he's reportedly a step up from Delaney so that can only be a win.

Despite the whole Geary is over/under rated saga that goes through here at times, he took his game to whole other level in the 2nd half of last season and that included his kicking not being a liability.
If he maintains that form it's a big win.

That brings us to Dempster which is what I think really the main part of your concern... and to a degree you're right. He's a stopping player and a good one at that.
Is he the one we need though? In the twilight of their careers, it's players like him and Gilbert that need to be forced out. Not cut. We need players outside the 22 like a Goddard, White, DMac etc to take their games to a whole new level or too.

Even a guy like Savage needs to close the gap between his best and worst.

[prwilkinson]

I do see where you're coming from...

But I think we are stymied to a degree here. Brown to me seemed like a forced and necessary choice. At the end of the day though he's reportedly a step up from Delaney so that can only be a win.

Despite the whole Geary is over/under rated saga that goes through here at times, he took his game to whole other level in the 2nd half of last season and that included his kicking not being a liability.
If he maintains that form it's a big win.

That brings us to Dempster which is what I think really the main part of your concern... and to a degree you're right. He's a stopping player and a good one at that.
Is he the one we need though? In the twilight of their careers, it's players like him and Gilbert that need to be forced out. Not cut. We need players outside the 22 like a Goddard, White, DMac etc to take their games to a whole new level or too.

Even a guy like Savage needs to close the gap between his best and worst.

Yeah, Shane Savage is a funny one. It's like watching 2 completely different players from one week to another. They'll be pressure on his spot next season if he doesn't bring it every week.

[samoht]

Conversely, the Bulldogs wish they had a forward line like ours. No side is perfect and our backline is okay - I don't think the gorilla forwards will be an issue now with Brown and Carlisle.
Roberton is also a solid, reliable player.
On paper our backline looks solid.

[longtimesaint]

I trust that Richo has the development of our backline in mind. I believe that the recruitment of Brown and also Stevens are to give us additional depth and insurance.
I think Brown will be used against teams with big key forwards likr Hogan and Hawkins.
Against teams with smaller forward lines (e.g.Bulldogs) we will probably play a more running backline.
Apparently both White and McKenzie are training very well so there will be a natual progression for eventual replacement of Dempster and Gilbert. (There is also Savage and the continuing development of Goddard and Coughlan.

[mad saint guy]

I'm glad we recruited Brown because you couldn't look at any other tall defensive options and think 'yep, lock him in for 20 quality games this year'. Carlisle has massive potential but missed an entire season and hasn't played at his best since 2013, Goddard is a kid coming off a ruptured achilles and poor form prior to that, while Dempster is a third-tall who has been forced to play CHB for too long. At least with Brown we know that there's an option who we can count on to prevent the 7, 8, 9 goal hauls from the likes of Hogan and Hawkins if it takes Carlisle a while to get back to his best.

I do agree that we really need a couple of Savage, McKenzie, White, Webster and Rice to elevate themselves to the elite level in the next couple of years. I'm not convinced that Savage has the consistency or that Rice will ever have the athleticism. Webster is already a solid option and wouldn't be a weak link in a best 22 but wouldn't be a strength either. However I think McKenzie and White are two who can become genuine weapons if they can get their possession count into the high teens/early twenties.

I'd love to see this defence lining up for us in September 2018 on the back of Brown, Dempster, Savage, Gilbert and Webster having all been surpassed.

Seniors

B: Roberton, Goddard, Geary
HB: White, Carlisle, McKenzie

That defence is extremely athletic, has genuine talls and some elite pace and skill coming off half back.

Then we'd have this in reserve

B: Webster, Brown, Rice
HB: Savage, Coughlan, Gilbert

[jays]

brown has few good years while we get another kpp

[BigMart]

Disagree

We have been monstered in the last two years by power forwards at times. Brown will play a negating role on these deep gorillas and allow us to bounce from more spoils, rather than getting beat consistently by deep high entries. You cannot play runners on the last line anyway, would you play as mobile on Josh Kennedy? (who kicked 5 in a quarter against us) would you play an offensively minded runner on Eddie Betts or Chad Winguard. The other back pocket really needs a medium tall player who can play small, medium and tall if needed or take mid/forward (Fyfe, Watson, Goddard, Martin, Danger, Hodge) if they go forward as a deep target.

Dempster, Gilbert and Roberton can all play this role. The most effective deep player however is Dempster. He knows when to zone, when to leave his man and intercept Mark (a huge stat in modern footy) he knows when to play on his man, and has the off the ball body work to buffet an opponent. It is his intercept marking because he can read the play which is critical, he will understand when ad where to go to be a plus one at a contest. He also doesn't panic deep because he's used to playing FB on power forwards.

Geary, is a must! He is the best negative defender on small forwards, he is the best coverage defender, he is the best runner at the club. His use is not good, but he does run off, and run back better than any other defender due to his tank. He is disciplined and selfless enough to sacrifice his own game to nullify a Rioli or Gartlett. His experience and concentration on these types is a must, because each possession they get will hurt.

You really want to avoid Carlisle to being held accountable as a defensive defender having to spoil. He must have the ability to zone off across HB when he can and read the ball coming out of defence. You also want to be able to use Carlisle as an option out of defence, so he is wasted in the last line.

Roberton and Gilbert, one of them at HB gives you great flexibility as a fourth tall, who can also run forward well from HB. Both are good defenders and their flexibility allows rotation. Both can play wing, or as a tall defender if needed. with Gilbert the added bonus is he can pinch hit midfield or forward.

Fact is, you are not really after bounce from deep in defence, to kick to a high half forward position anyway. Most teams if they get possession deep like to work the ball by foot to HB and then take the game on through the defensive end of the square and aim for a deeper entry. Shallow entries are almost entirely avoided unless there is a clear and open option.

Savage/Montagna/McKenzie will play across HB. Don't be surprise if we go a plus one (defensive winger) occasionally to help with run from behind the ball. Gilbert, Savage, Montagna and even Riewoldt will do this at times. But generally we should go with a 6 forward set up (Billings/Membrey/Weller) (McCartin/Bruce/Gresham) if they are playing.

We have a pretty complete and well rounded team

Probably it's just whether the high end talent can match it with the best. We look like a very good team, but not scary. Bit like Adelaide have been over the last few years. GWS and the Dogs are scary good.

[Impatient Sainter]

Buckley's coaching has retarded the development of most of their list and Brown is one of those players. Bluthy I think you couldnt be more wrong about Brown, with a coach that backs him he will prove to be a very solid player down back.

[realdeal]

For what it's worth, AFL website rated us as having the 9th best defense in the league coming into this season..

http://m.afl.com.au/news/2016-12-29/who ... every-club

[citywest]

I don't understand why we've brought Nathan Brown in. He's soon to turn 28. You only bring guys in at that age that have real quality. Brown by all accounts is a shocking kick. He's a bit of an upgrade on Delaney but only just. I see the recruitment of Brown as the first genuine retrograde step under Richo. I can understand us bringing guys like Weller, Savage, Delaney in when we were desperate for big bodied, strong tanked 50+ game players when we traded out/retired a lot of older players and had a lot of babies on the list. But I would have preferred to keep the Lee defender experiment going than Brown. Or try Coughlan in the big league.

Dempster will turn 32 in Jan. All this talk of Demps "getting off the leash" with Carlisle and Brown coming in is pure delusion. He's basically been a shut down, b-grade player his whole career. He's played as a tagger/HBF shut down player most of his career. He segued into more of deep defender role due to our lack of key backs, playing above his height as he learned to the read the flight of the ball really well and improved his marking that made him a fundamental to our team. But he is slow and an average kick - so how he will now "get off the leash" is beyond me.

Carlisle is the Joker in the deck. Could be anything, could be nothing. He's already had multiple surgeries and is a huge ruckmen size unit that will have his body take a toll. From what I've seen he is a bit of a ball chaser. That's not a bad thing as he will have licence to try and mark everything anywhere near him and could be an intercept king.

But we need a backline general to organise the defence. All premiership teams have them. Perhaps that is where Goddard comes in who seems a smart footy player - much more than Carlisle.

I think ideally we should swap Brown and Dempster in the team this year. Having all of Brown, Demps and Gears in the team is a poor kicking back three. If there is a couple of gorrilla forwards in the oppo, then Brown. If they are a bit smaller, then use Demps good ball reading and better kicking.

We need to get the likes of White, Rice, Goddard, Long, Mckenzie in the team to start playing as unit. They are attacking weapons who can use the footy. Dogs were brave backing JJ and Eastonwood early and getting their backline tight as a unit.

But I think Richo thinks we can pinch a flag next year using Brown on the gorrillas. I think it is a huge error. I think Richo has been badly swayed by his Collingwood connection. As a defender Richo has seemed extremely conservative on the backline. As opposed to the forward line where he has seen a min-revolution in having the balls to move Rooey out further to leave space for the new generation. And blooding guys like Dunstand, Acres and Gresham in the midfield. But for the backline, he's loved his comfy old pants again and again.

It really worries me how conservative we are there. The backline is where so many teams start their attacks from. And we have a very bad kicking, slow backline if we play all of Brown, Gears and Demps.

Extremely disappointing post Bluthy. I disagree entirely and I reckon you posted this only to troll.

[Dis Believer]

Disagree

We have been monstered in the last two years by power forwards at times. Brown will play a negating role on these deep gorillas and allow us to bounce from more spoils, rather than getting beat consistently by deep high entries. You cannot play runners on the last line anyway, would you play as mobile on Josh Kennedy? (who kicked 5 in a quarter against us) would you play an offensively minded runner on Eddie Betts or Chad Winguard. The other back pocket really needs a medium tall player who can play small, medium and tall if needed or take mid/forward (Fyfe, Watson, Goddard, Martin, Danger, Hodge) if they go forward as a deep target.

Dempster, Gilbert and Roberton can all play this role. The most effective deep player however is Dempster. He knows when to zone, when to leave his man and intercept Mark (a huge stat in modern footy) he knows when to play on his man, and has the off the ball body work to buffet an opponent. It is his intercept marking because he can read the play which is critical, he will understand when ad where to go to be a plus one at a contest. He also doesn't panic deep because he's used to playing FB on power forwards.

Geary, is a must! He is the best negative defender on small forwards, he is the best coverage defender, he is the best runner at the club. His use is not good, but he does run off, and run back better than any other defender due to his tank. He is disciplined and selfless enough to sacrifice his own game to nullify a Rioli or Gartlett. His experience and concentration on these types is a must, because each possession they get will hurt.

You really want to avoid Carlisle to being held accountable as a defensive defender having to spoil. He must have the ability to zone off across HB when he can and read the ball coming out of defence. You also want to be able to use Carlisle as an option out of defence, so he is wasted in the last line.

Roberton and Gilbert, one of them at HB gives you great flexibility as a fourth tall, who can also run forward well from HB. Both are good defenders and their flexibility allows rotation. Both can play wing, or as a tall defender if needed. with Gilbert the added bonus is he can pinch hit midfield or forward.

Fact is, you are not really after bounce from deep in defence, to kick to a high half forward position anyway. Most teams if they get possession deep like to work the ball by foot to HB and then take the game on through the defensive end of the square and aim for a deeper entry. Shallow entries are almost entirely avoided unless there is a clear and open option.

Savage/Montagna/McKenzie will play across HB. Don't be surprise if we go a plus one (defensive winger) occasionally to help with run from behind the ball. Gilbert, Savage, Montagna and even Riewoldt will do this at times. But generally we should go with a 6 forward set up (Billings/Membrey/Weller) (McCartin/Bruce/Gresham) if they are playing.

We have a pretty complete and well rounded team

Probably it's just whether the high end talent can match it with the best. We look like a very good team, but not scary. Bit like Adelaide have been over the last few years. GWS and the Dogs are scary good.

A lot of your "look at me posts" put me off the moment I see your nic, but credit where it is due, this is an excellent summation of our back-line situation heading into the new season - will be interested to see how it evolves towards the back end of the year........

[Zed]

Defence has been an issue since 2011. Losing Zac Dawson upset the structure (not that I was particularly a fan of his) and of course changing of coach meant we no longer played such a tight defensively minded game plan. However, whilst I have been banging on about our need to address our lack of KPD for the last 5 years , I reckon we are really close to getting it right.

In theory, recruiting Carlisle was a great coup as he is exactly the sort of player we need to defend against the emerging 200cm tall forwards such as Daniher, Boyd, Wright etc. Now it's just a matter of time before we find out if his body can withstand the rigours of Footy, week in week out after having been out of the game for 12 months.

Brown is definitely an insurance policy for the next 2 years. Good enough to hold down a spot in 2017 against the power forwards like Hogan, Hawkins and Tex, question marks also over his ability to stay injury free.

The big gamble is HG. Can't fault his bravery or dedication, and reads the play well, but his lack of speed is going to be a liability. Still unproven, needs to take big steps in his development in 2017 so that he is demanding a spot by year end. I can't see any of the other tall options realistically being anything more than cover for injuries so really we are hoping like hell that HG is going to good enough to force out Brown in 2018. I still think we need to draft another KPD or alternatively entice another ready made KPD to move.

I think we are well served for lock down small defenders and rebounding flankers. If our mids can win more clearances and forwards can slow down the speed of return into our back half, we will improve by 2-3 goals a game and out ourselves in the September mix.

[BigMart]

Thanks for the patronising reply True Believer

Because I really need your approval, I even seek it!!!! So sppreciate your lovely response .

[The Fireman]

I like the looks of our new back line......we may have a really good year just based on that

[magnifisaint]

The backline is a non issue.

Playing interstate is

[Bluthy]

The backline is a non issue.

Playing interstate is

Backline Issues:

Age: Dempster, Montagna, Geary, Gilbert, Brown - not exactly the young turk backline you'd hope we'd be grooming to be a tight unit right now. You tend to need your back six to have played together for a few years before they form a tight block.

Height: Every one has been whinging about our lack of size down back. Yet we could well field this year Carlisle 200, Brown 195, Roberton 194, Gilbert 194, Dempster 191. You could make the case that makes us a bit too tall down back and we could be too slow/clumsy. Do we need to sacrifice some height at the back to get some mid-size play makers in - White, Rice, Mckenzie, Long etc.

Next rung: Question marks on exactly what ceiling the mid-age players like Roberton, Webster, Savage, Carlisle have. Ideally these guys who are almost in their prime should be taking over responsibility from the vets but we haven't seen them really have the ability to step up to a really high, consistent level yet.

Disposal: Brown, Dempster, Geary, Gilbert - don't fill you with confidence with the ball in their hands. If history is the guide (and copying the dogs flag winning style) this year there will be even more pressing all over the ground including on the back line and good disposal at the back (including quick hands) becomes vital to work it out without it coming back with interest.

Richo's conservatism: I think they've done a brave job in revolutionising our fwd line and midfield. Yet our backline has lacked much fresh blood. Maybe as a dour defender, Richo doesn't want to take risks back there.

[To the top]

In regards the reference to the Coach, I seem to recall reading somewhere on this Forum that, at the AGM, the Coach specifically mentioned the need to improve our our abilities to rebound from defence - noting also that Montagna played where he played in 2016 for that very reason.

So I would hope the deficiency has been well and truly identified - and is being worked on.

Given our reliance on Fisher and his Champion qualities, and now his retirement, the availability of Carlisle and Brown has to be a positive.

In terms of the building/youth comment, I, for one, see no reason why St Kilda will not be challenging in 2017 and I therefore subscribe to selecting a side that can so achieve.

IF the side can not so achieve, then you identify the reasons and turn players until the negative becomes a positive.

The place to "educate" players is on the training track and in the Seconds

[Moods]

My younger brother had a conversation with a senior Sainter player about Carlisle. Said he should be a beauty. My bro asked why he thought that considering he hadn't really trained yet. The senior player replied - 'well if his form on the field is anything like his form off it, we've got a beauty.'

Maybe the players don't realise that us supporters don't really care how hard they party. We're more interested in them getting kicks and handballs - particularly players new to the club who have transferred under a cloud.

[skeptic]

My younger brother had a conversation with a senior Sainter player about Carlisle. Said he should be a beauty. My bro asked why he thought that considering he hadn't really trained yet. The senior player replied - 'well if his form on the field is anything like his form off it, we've got a beauty.'

Maybe the players don't realise that us supporters don't really care how hard they party. We're more interested in them getting kicks and handballs - particularly players new to the club who have transferred under a cloud.

I doubt a senior player would say that type of thing to someone they don't know

[saintsRrising]

Disagree

We have been monstered in the last two years by power forwards at times. Brown will play a negating role on these deep gorillas and allow us to bounce from more spoils, rather than getting beat consistently by deep high entries. You cannot play runners on the last line anyway, would you play as mobile on Josh Kennedy? (who kicked 5 in a quarter against us) would you play an offensively minded runner on Eddie Betts or Chad Winguard. The other back pocket really needs a medium tall player who can play small, medium and tall if needed or take mid/forward (Fyfe, Watson, Goddard, Martin, Danger, Hodge) if they go forward as a deep target.

Dempster, Gilbert and Roberton can all play this role. The most effective deep player however is Dempster. He knows when to zone, when to leave his man and intercept Mark (a huge stat in modern footy) he knows when to play on his man, and has the off the ball body work to buffet an opponent. It is his intercept marking because he can read the play which is critical, he will understand when ad where to go to be a plus one at a contest. He also doesn't panic deep because he's used to playing FB on power forwards.

Geary, is a must! He is the best negative defender on small forwards, he is the best coverage defender, he is the best runner at the club. His use is not good, but he does run off, and run back better than any other defender due to his tank. He is disciplined and selfless enough to sacrifice his own game to nullify a Rioli or Gartlett. His experience and concentration on these types is a must, because each possession they get will hurt.

You really want to avoid Carlisle to being held accountable as a defensive defender having to spoil. He must have the ability to zone off across HB when he can and read the ball coming out of defence. You also want to be able to use Carlisle as an option out of defence, so he is wasted in the last line.

Roberton and Gilbert, one of them at HB gives you great flexibility as a fourth tall, who can also run forward well from HB. Both are good defenders and their flexibility allows rotation. Both can play wing, or as a tall defender if needed. with Gilbert the added bonus is he can pinch hit midfield or forward.

Fact is, you are not really after bounce from deep in defence, to kick to a high half forward position anyway. Most teams if they get possession deep like to work the ball by foot to HB and then take the game on through the defensive end of the square and aim for a deeper entry. Shallow entries are almost entirely avoided unless there is a clear and open option.

Savage/Montagna/McKenzie will play across HB. Don't be surprise if we go a plus one (defensive winger) occasionally to help with run from behind the ball. Gilbert, Savage, Montagna and even Riewoldt will do this at times. But generally we should go with a 6 forward set up (Billings/Membrey/Weller) (McCartin/Bruce/Gresham) if they are playing.

We have a pretty complete and well rounded team

Probably it's just whether the high end talent can match it with the best. We look like a very good team, but not scary. Bit like Adelaide have been over the last few years. GWS and the Dogs are scary good.

Good Post.

To the OP...Geary became a better player last year, was more offensive and removed the bad turnovers that he used to do from his game.

In recent years we have been monstered in to many games by the lack of key defenders, inclusive of Fisher often having been injured. Carlisle and Brown are going to really counter that. Plus Carlisle will be an offensive weapon too. Players like Gilbert will be free to play the roles they do best.

With youngsters like DMak and White pushing up plus the slightly older Webster just above him there will be huge competition to play in our defense.

Indeed with Robo, Dempster etc they all will not fit in.

Richo, and our selection panel will have the luxury of being able to tweak the defense throughout the year taking into account our opponents and venue etc.

And that competition, added to the huge midfield competition we will see in 2017 is going to make for a better St Kilda (Though I see a lot of teams competing for the 8 in 2017, and believe it will be the hardest year every to make the 8).

Indeed in every facet of the game we now see tough competition for places at the Saints. Picking one's "best 22" is a nightmare now and indeed at present I genuinely cannot pick a best 22.

Having said that despite it being so hard to narrow the 22 down, we sill lack genuine elite players. I am hopeful that some will take that extra step in 2017 with Hickey, Acres, Paddy, Billings, Gresham and Membrey all being contenders. a bit more cream and we will be genuine contenders. Without the cream we will be more solid top 8.