We need to talk about our rucks.

[Drake Huggins]

The biggest issue to come out of Saturday's game was how badly we got smashed in the ruck and clearances. I'd hate to think what GWS or other top side would've done to us. Thank goodness we were playing the Bears. This situation has come as a surprise to me. Up to this year our main concerns seemed to be a lack of leg speed, ability to spread, Paddy's problems and how we were going to adjust to life without Roo. We seemed to be reasonably well off in the rucking department. What has happened since 2016 is puzzling.

At the end of 2016 we had four ruckmen of various levels of ability and different stages of development. Hickey was coming off the back of an outstanding year, in which he beat the likes of Gawn and Mumford. It seemed our prayers for a top class ruckman were being answered. At his age and stage of development, it seemed inevitable he would continue to improve and become one of the best ruckmen in the game. Billy Longer was still young and raw, but was a former number 8 draft pick and had time on his side. At that stage he was a promising number two and a handy back up.

"Long " Johnny Holmes was a speculative pick, but he was extraordinarily athletic and tall and was well worth putting time into. I'm sure if he'd grown up with the game he would've made it. Lewie Pierce was also a long shot, but as the last pick in his draft, there was little cost in his selection. His debut was also reasonably positive. Given that big blokes need time, he was also worth the gamble for a late pick as he also had plenty of time to develop, while Hickey and Longer were the main men.

Have a look at what's happened since. Hickey is probably third in line now and has hardly played a game, let alone a good one since. I know he's had injuries, but that's part of the game. He looks a shadow of his former self. Billy hasn't improved much if at all. He was better towards the end of last year, but when has he ever dominated a game or proved to be a match winner? He's broken even at best and most weeks has been well beaten. He's slow, both in body and mind, doesn't get much of the ball, rarely takes a mark and can't spread. He is a liability in the modern game. He'd be a champion in suburban football. In AFL? Not so much.

Holmes didn't make it, but that's not a surprise. He was always up against it, given he started at 27. Pierce has gone backwards. From promising debut to having to play at Frankston in order to get a game. He has ability, but it's not being translated into performance. So what's to blame?

Surely the ruck coach must take some responsibility. This sharp decline has occurred under his watch. While other clubs have full time ruck coaches with AFL experience, the saints did their usual trick and appointed someone they could afford, rather than what they needed. Plucked from obscurity, given a part time position. The ultimate joke is that he will coach against his own players for an opposition team in the VFL. Amateur hour at the saints once again. If he's meant to be developing our rucks, it's fair to say he's failing. I don't buy the third man up rule has stymied us. It doesn't seem to have been that detrimental to most of the other clubs.

In the end, the lack of a competent ruckman puts our midfield at a distinct disadvantage. We have mainly in and under types, and good ones at that. We should be amongst the best in clearances. On Saturday we were among the worst. While Martin gave his midfield an armchair ride, Billy was doing the usual, mistiming jumps and bumping his opponent after the ball was gone.

Maybe our rucks have reached the limit of their potential. I doubt it. One thing is for sure. Our best hope now rests with a one game rookie in the form of the promising Rowan Marshall. Skrobolak should pursue his senior coaching ambitions at Frankston and leave the big job to a full timer, who doesn't have his attention and loyalties divided.

[stonecold]

In your opinion!!!!!

[dragit]

I'm not sure what the issue is but… I find it hard to believe that Hickey is considered our third best option.

In his 60 odd games so far, he's kicked a bag of 3 goals and 2 goals - 4 times, had 14+ possessions on 20 occasions, taken 5 or more marks 19 times.

Longer averages 1 kick per match and was roundly flogged in every single measure on saturday.

While Hickey was beaten by Stef Martin last year in the same match, he still managed 33 hitouts, 15 touches (9 kicks), 7 tackles and 3 marks…

[Zed]

This is now Billy's 7th season in the AFL system if Im not mistaken. Surely he is about as athletically developed as he ever will be. How many years exactly does he need to have under his belt before we concede he isnt going to magically turn into a ruckman that can pickup a few marks around the ground, and push forward and kick a goal or 2.

[Con Gorozidis]

I think Billy is in serious strife.
Rucks have gone from a strength to a weakness of our list.

[Linton Lodger]

Let's not panic yet and give Longer a few more games, he was under an injury cloud for 2 or 3 weeks prior to the game.

If it turns out none of our Ruckman are the ones to go forward with, then not a disaster, ruckman are easily recruited relatively cheap.

[Linton Lodger]

I'm not sure what the issue is but… I find it hard to believe that Hickey is considered our third best option.

In his 60 odd games so far, he's kicked a bag of 3 goals and 2 goals - 4 times, had 14+ possessions on 20 occasions, taken 5 or more marks 19 times.

Longer averages 1 kick per match and was roundly flogged in every single measure on saturday.

While Hickey was beaten by Stef Martin last year in the same match, he still managed 33 hitouts, 15 touches (9 kicks), 7 tackles and 3 marks…

Having seen Hickey at his best (including two utter schoolings of Max Gawn), it really is a head scratcher.

His form going into last season was also good, then he never seemed to recover after his poor game Round 1.

[prwilkinson]

Would love to see Marshall bang the selection door down with some big performances in the magoos.

[cwrcyn]

Longer is big, heavy, and holds his ground. However, he gets about 4 junk possessions a game and one uncontested mark. Hickey, although not as strong as Longer, will get 15 possessions a game and take critical defensive marks and can drift forward and kick a goal. He also can position himself in the middle of the ground as a link man for our players as they come out of defence. Longer is, as the Scots like to say, "As good as a man short".

[skeptic]

For mine, the issue is the complete lack of strategy towards development...

We have this reasonably unlikable tendency at this club of just letting things that aren’t working linger.

From what I can see... we chose to play a Billy Longer that was lacking match fitness and seemingly under an injury cloud!!!

Why?

You have Rowan Marshall who had a decent offseason desperate for a game... why not throw him in? Surely he walks away better for the hit out even if he is beaten.

Alternatively... Hickey’s out of sorts and low on confidence, why not say we need you... we’ll give you two games, just go out there work hard and try to get your feel for it again...

Or if you’re so worried about that drop a Nathan Brown and play Jake further back or try to play Carlisle/Webster further up the ground and have Marshall in the team at CHB pinch hitting in the ruck with Hickey.

Instead we choose to let Marshall cool his feet, keep Hickey in purgatory and throw and underdone Billy to the wolves.

The thing I hate about this coaching team is that I just plain can’t understand what they’re doing... it’s not like you see something and go that failed but I understand what you went for... it’s a freaking code.

Remember when GT pulled Barry Brooks and of the team and said this kid is a shadow of himself, no football we’re going to throw him into intense conditioning for a month... I respected that. It absolutely didn’t work but at least they identified what they were doing was failing, made a clear plan to fix it, tried it and when it failed he was cut loose.

Here we have nothing. Absolutely no progression at all.

[saynta]

Think we need two rucks with only one on the ground at a time.

Billy and Hickey both had interrupted preseasons.

[congorozides]

Give Goddard a go in the ruck at VFL level.
Hope like hell Marshall comes good soon.

[BringBackMadDog]

Give Goddard a go in the ruck at VFL level.
Hope like hell Marshall comes good soon.

Hugh Goddard is 196cm, 100kgs and has virtually no vertical leap and is below average pace not sure how he'd go against a bloke over 200cm 110kgs who can jump and run. I suggest it would be fairly ugly

[stonecold]

Let's not panic yet and give Longer a few more games, he was under an injury cloud for 2 or 3 weeks prior to the game.

If it turns out none of our Ruckman are the ones to go forward with, then not a disaster, ruckman are easily recruited relatively cheap.

This, great post!!!!!

[stonecold]

Give Goddard a go in the ruck at VFL level.
Hope like hell Marshall comes good soon.

Not this!!!!!

[kosifantutti]

I'm not sure what the issue is but… I find it hard to believe that Hickey is considered our third best option.

In his 60 odd games so far, he's kicked a bag of 3 goals and 2 goals - 4 times, had 14+ possessions on 20 occasions, taken 5 or more marks 19 times.

Longer averages 1 kick per match and was roundly flogged in every single measure on saturday.

While Hickey was beaten by Stef Martin last year in the same match, he still managed 33 hitouts, 15 touches (9 kicks), 7 tackles and 3 marks…

Having seen Hickey at his best (including two utter schoolings of Max Gawn), it really is a head scratcher.

His form going into last season was also good, then he never seemed to recover after his poor game Round 1.

Hickey was actually really good in Round 2 and 3 last year. In the Saintsational top 5. He was “managed” after round 4 and I think only played one more which was the Essendon game where he was terrible.

[David-Lee]

I agree the ruck situation is disturbing.
Someone said its cheap ( implying overstock) of ruckman out there...are you serious? A quality ruckman of today must be tall ( obvious) , fast, mad leaping skills, quick up and down the ground taking marks and kicking goals.

This is rare as to find or every team would have one or two. We traded a great ruckman but got a great return.

Its spot on that Hickey's injuries have stiffled him maybe cost him some confidence. We need to get him healthy and if he is now get him in there and use Marshall when opposing team set up allows two rucks - with marshall on the bench or in another role.

Longer just cant do it. He's slow, too slow to gwt to the cobtest and provide marking options or at least bring the pill to the ground...We need a morph of Spider Everitt and Michael Gardner. I see that in Marshall a bit and have high hopes that he can run with play as well as spider and be a force in marking contests as well as tap the damn pill to advantage at least a few times a game.

[David-Lee]

I agree the ruck situation is disturbing.
Someone said its cheap ( implying overstock) of ruckman out there...are you serious? A quality ruckman of today must be tall ( obvious) , fast, mad leaping skills, quick up and down the ground taking marks and kicking goals.

This is rare as to find or every team would have one or two. We traded a great ruckman but got a great return.

Its spot on that Hickey's injuries have stiffled him maybe cost him some confidence. We need to get him healthy and if he is now get him in there and use Marshall when opposing team set up allows two rucks - with marshall on the bench or in another role.

Longer just cant do it( I'm not saying he's rubbish just not good enough without the 3rd man up running interference ). He's slow, too slow to get to the contest and provide marking options or at least bring the pill to the ground...We need a morph of Spider Everitt and Michael Gardner. I see that in Marshall a bit and have high hopes that he can run with play as well as spider and be a force in marking contests as well as tap the damn pill to advantage at least a few times a game.

[stonecold]

The third man up rule works in Bill's favour not Tom's, stick to singing Dave!!!!!

[saint-stu]

Should we have let Holmes go? I know he wasn't much good outside of rucking, but neither is Longer. At least Holmes had a weapon in his leap.

[parkeysainter]

Are any good rucks that can do it all out of contract at season's end? FA? Or a trade?

[Joffa Burns]

Billy is Dean Cox, Polly farmer and Captain blood rolled into one clearing a path for his mids, just ask Stonefish

As someone here once wrote....Ben is Long, but Billy is Longer!

[supersaints]

Don't understand why anyone who watches the game doesn't think third man up was important to sides without a big bodied dominant ruckman

Two teams that fell by the wayside were the Dogs who relied on third man up
Geelong also relied very heavily on third man up
We relied on third man up when Hickey played

We had a total of 116 Third man up hit outs between Roo, Seb and Sam the majority were when Hickey rucked here's some stats...

Total third-man up hit-outs in 2016 (via Champion Data)
1. Mark Blicavs (Geelong) — 154 hit-outs
2. Ollie Wines (Port Adelaide) — 65
3. Marcus Bontempelli (Western Bulldogs) — 63
4. Nick Riewoldt (St Kilda) — 57
5. Jordan Lewis (Hawthorn) — 54
6. Bryce Gibbs (Carlton) — 49
7. Callan Ward (GWS Giants) — 48
8. Connor Blakely (Fremantle) — 45
9. Brendon Goddard (Essendon) — 43
10. Luke Parker (Sydney Swans) — 35
11. Patrick Cripps (Carlton) and Seb Ross (St Kilda) — 34
13. Rory Sloane (Adelaide) — 33
14. David Mundy (Fremantle) — 32
15. Ryan Griffen (GWS Giants) and Jack Crisp (Collingwood) — 27
17. Shaun Grigg (Richmond) — 26
18. Sam Gilbert (St Kilda) — 25
19. Lin Jong (Western Bulldogs) — 23
20. Pearce Hanley (Brisbane Lions) — 21

If you look at the fortunes of most of the teams without a dominant ruckman ( and add west coast without Nic Nat last year ) it becomes blatantly obvious that third man up enabled the big and best rucks to be less predictable

We were more competitive when Longer was fit and able to provide some opposition

It makes life pretty easy when winning the ruck puts it on a platter for their side , and sides like us have to work harder to try to get a clearance

[stonecold]

Don't understand why anyone who watches the game doesn't think third man up was important to sides without a big bodied dominant ruckman

Two teams that fell by the wayside were the Dogs who relied on third man up
Geelong also relied very heavily on third man up
We relied on third man up when Hickey played

We had a total of 116 Third man up hit outs between Roo, Seb and Sam the majority were when Hickey rucked here's some stats...

Total third-man up hit-outs in 2016 (via Champion Data)
1. Mark Blicavs (Geelong) — 154 hit-outs
2. Ollie Wines (Port Adelaide) — 65
3. Marcus Bontempelli (Western Bulldogs) — 63
4. Nick Riewoldt (St Kilda) — 57
5. Jordan Lewis (Hawthorn) — 54
6. Bryce Gibbs (Carlton) — 49
7. Callan Ward (GWS Giants) — 48
8. Connor Blakely (Fremantle) — 45
9. Brendon Goddard (Essendon) — 43
10. Luke Parker (Sydney Swans) — 35
11. Patrick Cripps (Carlton) and Seb Ross (St Kilda) — 34
13. Rory Sloane (Adelaide) — 33
14. David Mundy (Fremantle) — 32
15. Ryan Griffen (GWS Giants) and Jack Crisp (Collingwood) — 27
17. Shaun Grigg (Richmond) — 26
18. Sam Gilbert (St Kilda) — 25
19. Lin Jong (Western Bulldogs) — 23
20. Pearce Hanley (Brisbane Lions) — 21

If you look at the fortunes of most of the teams without a dominant ruckman ( and add west coast without Nic Nat last year ) it becomes blatantly obvious that third man up enabled the big and best rucks to be less predictable

We were more competitive when Longer was fit and able to provide some opposition

It makes life pretty easy when winning the ruck puts it on a platter for their side , and sides like us have to work harder to try to get a clearance

Another Quality Post, well said, being saying that for all of last season about Hickledik!!!!!

[Saintmatt]

We went from having no rucks to then having a lot of rucks. Hickey and Longer are different players but were equally vying for the one spot. I liked that. Then Pierce developed and got a game and so too, Holmes. Then Marshall was drafted. I thought our ruck depth - just through weight of numbers alone (i.e. competing for spots) was looking up. Now we don't have Holmes, Pierce re-rookied, Hickey in no man's land, Longer is largely useless and means we're playing one short and so, on balance, I can't see how playing Marshall would make us a worse team. He's younger and can also push forward. I think he'd give us much more balance as a team - Longer would have been an even money bet in the dinosaur days let alone modern fast footy.

Basically - playing Longer kills our midfield and defence. He rarely wins hitouts to advantage and also, gives away lots of free kicks at stoppages. This then kills our defence.

Just play Marshall and deal with it (unless Hickey miraculously finds his 2016 form)