COMMENT: Saints' road to flag a highway to hell

[congorozides]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-06-13/c ... ay-to-hell

[suss]

Grim reading.

Some of the off-field stuff I can cope with. The failed NZ experiment is off-set by good things like the move back to Moorabbin and the new stadium deal. Things move in that space so no big issues there for me. Why did we want to go the NZ any way? Because we stuffed up the Tasmania deal?

The list management, however, has been ******* diabolical. Pelchen and Bains have made some epic stuff ups that we’ll pay for for years. 2012 for example. My god what were they thinking. They managed to turn picks 12 and 13 into Tom Lee, Tom Hickey, Nathan Wright and Spencer White. A pile of magic beans if ever there was one. It makes me sick evey time I see Brodie Grundy running around for Collingwood.

Are the coaches any good? It’s kinda hard to tell when the list management has been so bad.

Is Trout any good? He knows how to pick good players just not the type of players we need.

And as for hitting free agency hard ... fmd. What a depressing read. Unless we open the cheque book and actually throw some money and the elite players running around in the competition we have no chance of landing a big fish.

I’m just hope that Lethlean has a pair and isn’t afraid to clean out the cobwebs throughout the entire football department.

[Waltzing St Kilda]

NZ was a pipe dream of the type St Kilda makes too often.

Let's all move to Seaford. No worries. Big growth area.

Let's move to Colonial Stadium. Who cares what the deal's like?

Let's pick the big kid with diabetes. Sure, everyone's saying Petracca but it's fun defying the experts!

Let's get that big reject from WA (Tom Lee) with our first pick. Sure, it's a gamble but how great will we look if it works out!

[rodgerfox]

NZ was a pipe dream of the type St Kilda makes too often.

Let's all move to Seaford. No worries. Big growth area.

Let's move to Colonial Stadium. Who cares what the deal's like?

Let's pick the big kid with diabetes. Sure, everyone's saying Petracca but it's fun defying the experts!

Let's get that big reject from WA (Tom Lee) with our first pick. Sure, it's a gamble but how great will we look if it works out!

I think you're being overly cynical to be honest.

NZ - why was that a bad idea? What's wrong with trying? Most people though Tassie was an awful idea at the time too. I have no issue with that decision.

The Seaford move - yes agree. Woeful idea.

Docklands - disagree. In hindsight we copped a rough deal like all clubs there - but I think the actual decision to go ther (as much as I hate the place) certainly had merit.

McCartin - totally disagree. He'll be a very, very good player. Petracca will be good too, but he's hardly a world beater (in a very good team with a very, very deep midfield) at this stage.

Tom Lee - yes. WTF were they thinking?

[bigred]

There was nothing wrong with that plan. Every club does plans like this. I would be more concerned if a board did not have a longer term plan such as this. People jumping on this NOW as if it is a joke is incredibly simplistic and just plain ignorant. They set a plan, and it failed.

Here is an article about the plan that Richmond embarked on a few years earlier. Big ideas, big numbers. Very, very similar. Key differences are that they have achieved almost all their targets where we have missed pretty much every single one. The reason that I pick Richmond here is because they were highly visible with theirs and in many respects they were quite similar. Bear in mind, they were a dead set basket case while this was implemented.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/tig ... -pizq.html

More here:

http://s.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Te ... 8%20LR.pdf

I can still remember listening to Gale talking about it and I was scoffing at the 75k member dream.

Then they did this:

http://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/2011- ... -the-cycle

Interesting read that one.

I guess my point is that we need an administration that is prepared to develop and implement plans such as this one or we are going nowhere.

Realistically, the Seaford move f***ed us. Put us into a black hole for a decade when, really off the back of two Grand Final years we should have been flying.
The decision to move back to Moorabbin pretty much saw us drop the ball on developing any true "heartland" down there. Instead of achieving the targets of the plan, we stagnated around indecision and probably inactivity.

So the key goals for the current board over the journey:

• Top Four side

Fail. Quite questionable list management over the past decade. FAIL

• 50,000 members in AU

Fail. Getting there... but still a big old fail. Hugely dependent on onfield performance. FAIL
10,000 NZ members: Fail. Just....wow. Such fail.

• Annual Surpluses year on year:

Fail. Even before the move back to Linton St, this is just such fail.

• Reduce Debt:

Fail. Debt has increased to what should be described as unsustainable levels.

• Strong Trans-Tasman Business and corporate connections:

Doomed to fail with the whole NZ package.

So really, at the end of the day, the current board, that has been in place for six years or so, should be held to account for this. The plan was not followed through. The NZ plan was left to stagnate. The plan was good and in some ways it was bleeding edge for football circles, what with international revenue streams etc... But they failed to follow through. A big part of this plan centered around NZ and it just failed to launch.

They should not be allowed to hide behind the move back to Moorabbin as a success, or the better Docklands deal. The move back is an expensive flip flop for a previous admin decision, but you could argue that we could have done more with Seaford without placing the club in such a poor financial position. The Docklands deal is just plain luck, due to the AFL buying the stadium.

The board needs to be tipped. The Prez is up anyway as he cannot extend his term beyond six years. But we need another plan, that will be not unlike this one.

The board has not hit it's targets and needs to be held to account. Simple as that. Should not be an ugly coup though... Natural transition, but the next batch needs to be aiming high as well. We need some really dedicated people to follow a plan through.

CEO needs a review. Full stop.

The whole football department obviously needs further review.

I can really see us, unless we have a string of coach killer games... Sticking with Richardson. Reviewing everything around him, along with everything that he does.

We need to be smarter with our revenue streams. Pokies are not the answer long term.
We need to be leaner and run cheaper. Really, really bad timing with this one. Financially we need to compress while operationally we need to expand...or do we?

We need change again.

Then there is the list.......

[Yorkeys]

Planning good, execution bad (like the mythical game plan?). Tom Lee decision was surely overly influenced by Coach Watters. NZ might have worked if we had performed. Did not win a game (three first gamers in first match?), played at night in cold wet conditions on a postage stamp - product served up was rubbish. Most people with average IQs can sprout the management/leadership/business planning KPI dogmas of contemporary society half convincingly but few actually understand it or can deliver. We have chosen so poorly in terms of CEOs and coaches over the last decade or so. GT was doing ok but was flicked apparently out of vindictiveness; Lyon won games but in hindsight never had the wherewithal to win the big ones either in timing the run or game day nous - even then only bad luck and hopelessly incompetent goal umpiring conspired against us. The one year we were so much better Lyon still contrived to lose.Watters was an awful pick and its hard to see how a selection committee could have given him the job. AR was an ok pick for the time but that time has passed and he can't adjust - once you have spent your political capital and credibility it rarely if ever replenishes. Pelchen and Bains were diabolical and to know the harm such incompetence dressed up as specialist capabilities (Emperor your clothes!) is heartbreaking, their legacy will weigh on us for years. However we have to stop making the classic mistake of thinking too much is invested in Alan, cut your losses Board for heavens sake. The 2 year extension was a rookie error possibly overly influenced by the Richmond game. For heavens sake Board stop digging the hole we are in any deeper, admit mistakes, get a new coach before the current batch of players are irrevocably scarred and sponsors avoid us like the plague. Please do something decisive this spiral is excruciating.

[Con Gorozidis]

Having lived in NZ for a year I said at the time it was a horrendous idea that would never work

Comparing NZ to Tassie is incredibly ignorant.
I posted on the reasons in detail back in 2014.
I'm not going to waste my time re posting the detail but anyone who knew anything about NZ culture knew it was a pipe dream.
A thought bubble. A truly dumb idea concocted by ignoramus Mgt.

I can see how Roger Fox has survived at a big 4 all these years.
One of those blokes who believes and supports absolutely everything he is told by his superiors. Laps it up. Classic brown nose lap dog. Blind loyalty to those he considers 'powerful ' or 'superior'.

<warning for abuse and baiting>

[thejiggingsaint]

Don't get stressed folks. Get used to it. There is NO possibility of a Saints flag in the next ten-fifteen years. Simple as that. UNLESS of course, the Club completely change its approach from the past 140-odd years....and I aint holding my breath waiting for THAT!

[CURLY]

Don't get stressed folks. Get used to it. There is NO possibility of a Saints flag in the next ten-fifteen years. Simple as that. UNLESS of course, the Club completely change its approach from the past 140-odd years....and I aint holding my breath waiting for THAT!

That's rubbish.

[thejiggingsaint]

Don't get stressed folks. Get used to it. There is NO possibility of a Saints flag in the next ten-fifteen years. Simple as that. UNLESS of course, the Club completely change its approach from the past 140-odd years....and I aint holding my breath waiting for THAT!

That's rubbish.

You're entitled to your opinion mate. History however is on MY side.

[rodgerfox]

Having lived in NZ for a year I said at the time it was a horrendous idea that would never work

Comparing NZ to Tassie is incredibly ignorant.
I posted on the reasons in detail back in 2014.
I'm not going to waste my time re posting the detail but anyone who knew anything about NZ culture knew it was a pipe dream.
A thought bubble. A truly dumb idea concocted by ignoramus Mgt.

I can see how Roger Fox has survived at a big 4 all these years.
One of those blokes who believes and supports absolutely everything he is told by his superiors. Laps it up. Classic brown nose lap dog. Blind loyalty to those he considers 'powerful ' or 'superior'.

I don't work at a big 4 firm.

[CURLY]

Don't get stressed folks. Get used to it. There is NO possibility of a Saints flag in the next ten-fifteen years. Simple as that. UNLESS of course, the Club completely change its approach from the past 140-odd years....and I aint holding my breath waiting for THAT!

That's rubbish.

You're entitled to your opinion mate. History however is on MY side.

We could have won both 2009-10 and us losing had nothing to do with our previous history. The same that what happened over our previous 135 years has to do with this season.

[suss]

Don't get stressed folks. Get used to it. There is NO possibility of a Saints flag in the next ten-fifteen years. Simple as that. UNLESS of course, the Club completely change its approach from the past 140-odd years....and I aint holding my breath waiting for THAT!

That's rubbish.

You're entitled to your opinion mate. History however is on MY side.

Don't be a Negative Nancy Jiggster! Things can turn around quickly. If we re-structure our coaching, list management and recruitment departments now and get a fresh injection of talent from the draft, free agency and recruitment, there's no reason we can't push for a flag in 3 years I reckon.

All is not lost!

[saynta]

NZ was a pipe dream of the type St Kilda makes too often.

Let's all move to Seaford. No worries. Big growth area.

Let's move to Colonial Stadium. Who cares what the deal's like?

Let's pick the big kid with diabetes. Sure, everyone's saying Petracca but it's fun defying the experts!

Let's get that big reject from WA (Tom Lee) with our first pick. Sure, it's a gamble but how great will we look if it works out!

f****** sad reading.

[saynta]

NZ was a pipe dream of the type St Kilda makes too often.

Let's all move to Seaford. No worries. Big growth area.

Let's move to Colonial Stadium. Who cares what the deal's like?

Let's pick the big kid with diabetes. Sure, everyone's saying Petracca but it's fun defying the experts!

Let's get that big reject from WA (Tom Lee) with our first pick. Sure, it's a gamble but how great will we look if it works out!

I think you're being overly cynical to be honest.

NZ - why was that a bad idea? What's wrong with trying? Most people though Tassie was an awful idea at the time too. I have no issue with that decision.

The Seaford move - yes agree. Woeful idea.

Docklands - disagree. In hindsight we copped a rough deal like all clubs there - but I think the actual decision to go ther (as much as I hate the place) certainly had merit.

McCartin - totally disagree. He'll be a very, very good player. Petracca will be good too, but he's hardly a world beater (in a very good team with a very, very deep midfield) at this stage.

Tom Lee - yes. WTF were they thinking?

News flash Rodge.

They play footy in Tassie and love it.

The don't play Footy in NZ and loath anything Aussie.

But agree with you on every thing else.

[thejiggingsaint]

Don't get stressed folks. Get used to it. There is NO possibility of a Saints flag in the next ten-fifteen years. Simple as that. UNLESS of course, the Club completely change its approach from the past 140-odd years....and I aint holding my breath waiting for THAT!

That's rubbish.

You're entitled to your opinion mate. History however is on MY side.

Don't be a Negative Nancy Jiggster! Things can turn around quickly. If we re-structure our coaching, list management and recruitment departments now and get a fresh injection of talent from the draft, free agency and recruitment, there's no reason we can't push for a flag in 3 years I reckon.

All is not lost!

"All is not lost" ????? Sorry mate, just don't see it your way. Its hard to see ANYTHING positive on the horizon (as far as winning a flag is concerned) As for "Things can turn around quickly" well, I HOPE you're right, BUT as i say, I'm not about to hold my breath!

[thejiggingsaint]

Don't get stressed folks. Get used to it. There is NO possibility of a Saints flag in the next ten-fifteen years. Simple as that. UNLESS of course, the Club completely change its approach from the past 140-odd years....and I aint holding my breath waiting for THAT!

That's rubbish.

You're entitled to your opinion mate. History however is on MY side.

We could have won both 2009-10 and us losing had nothing to do with our previous history. The same that what happened over our previous 135 years has to do with this season.

Errr Agree to disagree with you there mate. "Our previous 135 year history" has EVERYTHING to do with this season....... in the simple fact that we are REPEATING it! Don't get me wrong, I'm not about to jump ship, just stating the REALITY.

[freely]

jigster - i think you've inadvertently drunk out of that little bottle that said "drink me" and now it's time for you to eat that little bit of cake that says "eat me".

[thejiggingsaint]

jigster - i think you've inadvertently drunk out of that little bottle that said "drink me" and now it's time for you to eat that little bit of cake that says "eat me".

Errrr would that be the little bottle that the club sent every member prior to the season?

[desertsaint]

This whole 10,000 NZ members was an idiotic goal that shows such a lack of knowledge of the market as to wonder about how much actual planning and questioning goes on at the club, let alone any evidence of expertise. By itself it brings skepticism to everything else the club does and brings up fears of a groupthink mentality among the board. The NZ Warriors - the sole NZ club in the NRL - only has 8500 members. How could they possibly even dream of 10,000 members for a foreign club in a totally foreign code, and playing in a much smaller city? Absolute ignorance or absolute bullshitting to the fan base?

[thejiggingsaint]

This whole 10,000 NZ members was an idiotic goal that shows such a lack of knowledge of the market as to wonder about how much actual planning and questioning goes on at the club, let alone any evidence of expertise. By itself it brings skepticism to everything else the club does and brings up fears of a groupthink mentality among the board. The NZ Warriors - the sole NZ club in the NRL - only has 8500 members. How could they possibly even dream of 10,000 members for a foreign club in a totally foreign code, and playing in a much smaller city? Absolute ignorance or absolute bullshitting to the fan base?

I do believe that you've just "rested my case" mate This board are obviously hitting the "medicinal compound"....but BIG TIME!!!!!

[takeaway]

Don't get stressed folks. Get used to it. There is NO possibility of a Saints flag in the next ten-fifteen years. Simple as that. UNLESS of course, the Club completely change its approach from the past 140-odd years....and I aint holding my breath waiting for THAT!

That's rubbish.

You're entitled to your opinion mate. History however is on MY side.

We could have won both 2009-10 and us losing had nothing to do with our previous history. The same that what happened over our previous 135 years has to do with this season.

Errr Agree to disagree with you there mate. "Our previous 135 year history" has EVERYTHING to do with this season....... in the simple fact that we are REPEATING it! Don't get me wrong, I'm not about to jump ship, just stating the REALITY.

Come on Jiggers, we cannot predict what will happen next year let alone in 10-15 years, and what consistent approach have we adopted over the last 140 years? There have many many different "approaches", and regimes, as with all clubs, some successful, some not.

The big issue, and it is the ultimate aim of course, is not winning Grand finals. In my view, "our history" has nothing to do with our GF losses. Be a bit different if we had won 4 more, and that could have easily been the case - with the exception of 1965 & replay 2010, we put up great performances in '71,'97 & 09/10. Injuries to Everitt, Winmar/Loewe issues before the GF, Gardiner injury, point given a goal, bad bounce, etc were nothing to do with the Saint's "history". I really enjoyed all those years.

I have been supporting the Saints since 1962, when the Doc came over, and have not regretted it one bit. Winning the GF is the aim, but there are many other aspects you can enjoy, great wins, the ride to the finals, the rise from the bottom, young players coming good, the coming week, and so on, that is how I look at it. In fact, since I commenced supporting the saints, and based on the clubs that were in existence in 1962 and still are, Saints have made more GFs than Melb, West Bulldogs, & Swans, and almost as many as Nth & Rich. Plenty of finals as well.

We were OK in 2016 and 17, no good this year, I reckon we are not as bad as the reactionaries have made out. No doubt there will be a few changes, I haven't given up hope that we can challenge for the 8 next year.

[thejiggingsaint]

Don't get stressed folks. Get used to it. There is NO possibility of a Saints flag in the next ten-fifteen years. Simple as that. UNLESS of course, the Club completely change its approach from the past 140-odd years....and I aint holding my breath waiting for THAT!

That's rubbish.

You're entitled to your opinion mate. History however is on MY side.

We could have won both 2009-10 and us losing had nothing to do with our previous history. The same that what happened over our previous 135 years has to do with this season.

Errr Agree to disagree with you there mate. "Our previous 135 year history" has EVERYTHING to do with this season....... in the simple fact that we are REPEATING it! Don't get me wrong, I'm not about to jump ship, just stating the REALITY.

Come on Jiggers, we cannot predict what will happen next year let alone in 10-15 years, and what consistent approach have we adopted over the last 140 years? There have many many different "approaches", and regimes, as with all clubs, some successful, some not.

The big issue, and it is the ultimate aim of course, is not winning Grand finals. In my view, "our history" has nothing to do with our GF losses. Be a bit different if we had won 4 more, and that could have easily been the case - with the exception of 1965 & replay 2010, we put up great performances in '71,'97 & 09/10. Injuries to Everitt, Winmar/Loewe issues before the GF, Gardiner injury, point given a goal, bad bounce, etc were nothing to do with the Saint's "history". I really enjoyed all those years.

I have been supporting the Saints since 1962, when the Doc came over, and have not regretted it one bit. Winning the GF is the aim, but there are many other aspects you can enjoy, great wins, the ride to the finals, the rise from the bottom, young players coming good, the coming week, and so on, that is how I look at it. In fact, since I commenced supporting the saints, and based on the clubs that were in existence in 1962 and still are, Saints have made more GFs than Melb, West Bulldogs, & Swans, and almost as many as Nth & Rich. Plenty of finals as well.

We were OK in 2016 and 17, no good this year, I reckon we are not as bad as the reactionaries have made out. No doubt there will be a few changes, I haven't given up hope that we can challenge for the 8 next year.

Agree to disagree mate, but respect your opinion.

[bigred]

Statistically, every club in the competition, bar perhaps GC and GWS are more likely to win another premiership before we do.

[thejiggingsaint]

Statistically, every club in the competition, bar perhaps GC and GWS are more likely to win another premiership before we do.

Spot ON!