This post on St K's drafting/list is so goddamn on the money ...

[Saintmatt]

https://www.theroar.com.au/2018/08/29/s ... a-nowhere/

A very intelligent, unbiased look at our list and drafting/trading possibilities and potential.

My takeaways: -

- Perfect view (IMO) on Freeman re: how many are better than him on our list?
- Indifferent on their view of Lonie;
- Agree re: Billings;
- Strongly disagree re: Dunstan.

Absolutely damning on our Senior/experienced core of players though.

Thoughts?

[chico2001]

A good look at the club and how it is going. Basically said that the ladder position this year is at par. So that should worry a few supporters, even worse is that their seems no real upside playing wise unless we can grab 2 very good free agents. I dont agree with Dunstan either, if crows want to trade him in, swap him immediately if not sooner.

[SaintPav]

Love the comment from the Cats fan.

Wanker

[Saintmatt]

A good look at the club and how it is going. Basically said that the ladder position this year is at par. So that should worry a few supporters, even worse is that their seems no real upside playing wise unless we can grab 2 very good free agents. I dont agree with Dunstan either, if crows want to trade him in, swap him immediately if not sooner.

Dunstan is the only element that's wrong in the article - Adelaide have just signed an ageing Sloane for 5 years ... why would another poor kicking slowish inside mid suit them?

I'd take a late 2nd rounder and above for Dunstan in a heartbeat

[skeptic]

Really good article

[older saint]

good article, must have been on the forum this year

Dunstan is a funny one , finds the ball really well but then can butcher it. if allowed to be the inside mid i think has value but we lack silk on the outside which means the possessions of him or others or not quality.

2nd rounder i would take as i think it is overs.

[David-Lee]

https://www.theroar.com.au/2018/08/29/s ... a-nowhere/

A very intelligent, unbiased look at our list and drafting/trading possibilities and potential.

My takeaways: -

- Perfect view (IMO) on Freeman re: how many are better than him on our list?
- Indifferent on their view of Lonie;
- Agree re: Billings;
- Strongly disagree re: Dunstan.

Absolutely damning on our Senior/experienced core of players though.

Thoughts?

I was very annoyed we spent so much time and resources on Freezer then we cut him. We needed to give him one more year. If he gets a full preseason I reckon he will have a very good season for someone. We didnt even try bundling him in a trade....what absolute rubbish.

Lonie, I can't see him succeeding unless he gets a Riewoldt and a running ruck to crumb from...

Billings. Wow, I just don't know. Talent for sure but there's something not right, maybe its psychological or confidence or development. Not sure. I would not trade.

Dunstan, he's a Bruce, had a short good run and been on s slow roll downward since....I think he has a place and he can surprise if he gets the support in the mid that allows him to play his key position.
I want to see him in Geary's role in defence.

[Saintmatt]

https://www.theroar.com.au/2018/08/29/s ... a-nowhere/

A very intelligent, unbiased look at our list and drafting/trading possibilities and potential.

My takeaways: -

- Perfect view (IMO) on Freeman re: how many are better than him on our list?
- Indifferent on their view of Lonie;
- Agree re: Billings;
- Strongly disagree re: Dunstan.

Absolutely damning on our Senior/experienced core of players though.

Thoughts?

I was very annoyed we spent so much time and resources on Freezer then we cut him. We needed to give him one more year. If he gets a full preseason I reckon he will have a very good season for someone. We didnt even try bundling him in a trade....what absolute rubbish.

Lonie, I can't see him succeeding unless he gets a Riewoldt and a running ruck to crumb from...

Billings. Wow, I just don't know. Talent for sure but there's something not right, maybe its psychological or confidence or development. Not sure. I would not trade.

Dunstan, he's a Bruce, had a short good run and been on s slow roll downward since....I think he has a place and he can surprise if he gets the support in the mid that allows him to play his key position.
I want to see him in Geary's role in defence.

Lonie needs a stronger core and 10kgs - he has all the tricks but is unable to stick a tackle and gets knocked off the ball way too easily.

Dunstan could not possibly play Geary’s role. For all his significant faults ... Gears runs like a mad man. Luke couldn’t run out of sight on a dark night.

[Enrico_Misso]

I hope our recruiters understand the wisdoms in that article.

[Enrico_Misso]

Article also highlights the stupidity of trading our 2nd and 3rd round picks this year in last years draft.
We have very little trading opportunities unless we break up out first round pick which means we are unlikely to get an A grader.

[saintsRrising]

Well going by the two ITKs on BF tonight a number of our better younger players want to be traded.

List seems to be in turmoil.

I am just hoping like hell we end up with a reasonable list once the dust is settled. But I am fearful that we will lose some good younger players and bring in a fleet of mature players, but all of whom have question marks on them.

[Hemi Baxter]

So do I. Bleak but compellingly accurate, for the most part, dissection of our list.
Bang on with two points in particular.
1. We musn’t trade pick 4
2. If we have the chance to pick Rankine we should take it.

[st.byron]

Good observations re Lycett, Menzel et al. Surprising amount of optimism about the future though. I found that a little at odds with the rest of the article that basically says our list is very ordinary. I continue to maintain that the head coach and director of coaching are the main problems. Only a passing mention of that in the article.

[groupie1]

https://www.theroar.com.au/2018/08/29/s ... a-nowhere/

A very intelligent, unbiased look at our list and drafting/trading possibilities and potential.

My takeaways: -

- Perfect view (IMO) on Freeman re: how many are better than him on our list?
- Indifferent on their view of Lonie;
- Agree re: Billings;
- Strongly disagree re: Dunstan.

Absolutely damning on our Senior/experienced core of players though.

Thoughts?

I was very annoyed we spent so much time and resources on Freezer then we cut him. We needed to give him one more year. If he gets a full preseason I reckon he will have a very good season for someone. We didnt even try bundling him in a trade....what absolute rubbish.

Lonie, I can't see him succeeding unless he gets a Riewoldt and a running ruck to crumb from...

Billings. Wow, I just don't know. Talent for sure but there's something not right, maybe its psychological or confidence or development. Not sure. I would not trade.

Dunstan, he's a Bruce, had a short good run and been on s slow roll downward since....I think he has a place and he can surprise if he gets the support in the mid that allows him to play his key position.
I want to see him in Geary's role in defence.

Freeza deserved another year just on a just in case basis. Stupid decision. He may not have made it, but next year was his best shot - finally a full pre-season. Plus, even if he had lost his dash, he's a big bodied bull and could easily replace Dunstand / Ross in the midfiled, who both butcher the ball and need to be traded while they have some value. I'd be investing in Paton, Freeza, Steel, Hanneebury, and get some trade valuye for Dunstan and Ross.

What the post failed to nail, is that Geary needs to GO.
And Goddard is the mature age recruit we need to be getting, as McVeigh is staying with the Swans.

I don't agree on Lycett, though. I think we want him and Pierce; and clean out the rest of the rucks.

[rodgerfox]

I think it's pretty close.

I've said for a while that we lack a good senior group. Once this is in place, the rest seems to follow. Clarkson/Hawthorn seem to be base their entire philosophy on this premise. By the time the Hodge's, Lewis' and Mitchell's are gone, they've still got Roughead, Puopolo, Birchall and Burgoyne to hold the hands of the Isaac Smith's, Luke Bruest's, Stratton's, McEvoys and Gunstan's into that senior group.

Whilst this is all going on, they're able to develop Sicily's and Burton's, Impey's and Hardwick's whilst the older guys take the heat.

Funnily enough - when they looked cooked last year and couldn't get out of their own daylight, it was when they'd just offloaded some senior guys and others were missing from the team. Their middle team looked lost, and their young guys suddenly appeared void of development.

The story is almost exactly the same for all other teams up the ladder.


Even If we sit around and wait, in 18 months and our senior group heading into the 2021 season will be made up of Jack Steven, Weller, Bruce, Carlisle, Roberton, Hickey and Savage - and only Jack would be over 30!

Even then, although it's probably what could be considered a 'solid' senior group, it's not overly experienced with only one of them being over 30. No premiership experience either, and even very limited finals experience.


So the lack of senior player is the most pressing issue in my opinion. Right now, we should be targeting guys that have played finals, and played in flags, and are in the 27-30yo bracket. Once we get a couple of these sorts of guys in that play their role consistently, I guarantee that some of our young guys will suddenly appear to be developing really well, and a couple of the middle aged guys will step up to become genuine guns.

[samoht]

This is/was exactly my take on it . Our list is ordinary due to our "scattergun approach" to recruiting. We have not focussed on recruiting players with elite skills over the last 5-10 years and on building a core
of skilled players - players with elite skills - that we can build on.
Recruiting is the crux of our problem and the area we need to fix above all else - the coaches can easily be replaced.

[rodgerfox]

This is/was exactly my take on it . Our list is ordinary due to our "scattergun approach" to recruiting. We have not focussed on recruiting players with elite skills over the last 5-10 years.
Recruiting is the crux of our problem and the area we need to fix above all else - the coaches can easily be replaced.

Billings was elite with his field kicking in U18s.
Gresham was elite with his goal kicking accuracy in the U18s.
Hunter Clark's kicking on both sides was considered elite at U18 level.
McCartin was an elite mark at U18 level.


I honestly don't think recruitment is the issue.

I think it's Richardson's obsession with turning skillful footballers with natural ability, into stodgy role players that are 'strong' and focus on performing mundane acts such as 'bringing the ball to the front of the pack' instead of marking the ball, is why our list appears average.

That, and our lack of good, solid senior players is why we're where we're at. IMO.

[samoht]

This is/was exactly my take on it . Our list is ordinary due to our "scattergun approach" to recruiting. We have not focussed on recruiting players with elite skills over the last 5-10 years.
Recruiting is the crux of our problem and the area we need to fix above all else - the coaches can easily be replaced.

Billings was elite with his field kicking in U18s.
Gresham was elite with his goal kicking accuracy in the U18s.
Hunter Clark's kicking on both sides was considered elite at U18 level.
McCartin was an elite mark at U18 level.


I honestly don't think recruitment is the issue.

I think it's Richardson's obsession with turning skillful footballers with natural ability, into stodgy role players that are 'strong' and focus on performing mundane acts such as 'bringing the ball to the front of the pack' instead of marking the ball, is why our list appears average.

That, and our lack of good, solid senior players is why we're where we're at. IMO.

Re: Richo (I'm not saying he's a good coach) - although we had a lot of injuries this year, and were missing players that were important to our structure,
our biggest loss was only 54 points. We didn't get blown out of the water.

The scattergun approach to recruiting is our major problem - as the article pointed out.
I'm referring to kicking skills when under serious pressure - the kind of pressure you're subjected to at AFL level.
You need to recruit players whose skills don't fall apart when under pressure.
Hunter Clark is looking promising - but he's just a kid - and Gresham has the evasiveness to make time and space (but is he an elite kick?) - but it's too little too late. What happened in the last 5-12 years prior?
Where is our core of players with elite kicking skills, whose skills hold up under pressure? We don't have a single midfielder with elite kicking skills, while the better teams may have 2-4.
Billings is a good field kick when in space - but not under pressure. He rushes and panics.
Have a look at Burgoyne, Breust, Gunston, Isaac Smith, Rance, Houli, Dustin Martin, Pendlebury, Sidebottom, De Goey, even etc.. under pressure - and compare. You can't compare.

[DJ Higgins]

Cutting Freeman was tough but fair. WeWe don't need another list clogger we have enough. Dunstan could go as well and we wouldn't really.notice. I agreethink that we need to take a punt on rankine. On paper he is great up forward. Unfortunately we need a quick mid and this year we wont get one

[bigred]

Fair enough article. Could go a lot harder than that. Our list just isn't good enough.

Well going by the two ITKs on BF tonight a number of our better younger players want to be traded.

List seems to be in turmoil.

I am just hoping like hell we end up with a reasonable list once the dust is settled. But I am fearful that we will lose some good younger players and bring in a fleet of mature players, but all of whom have question marks on them.

AS far as I am concerned then we should fkn well trade them. Apart from say Gresh and the kids we got in last years draft, who actually put their hands up this year? Not a single one. None.

It couldn't get much worse. Well, a couple of ladder positions, but that is about it. A 4.5 win season is basically a wooden spoon worthy performance.

Trading guys out is going to see us middling to bottoming out for another few years but who can say that on current form that wont happen anyway.

On Freeman and Goddard... I understand both sides. We got zero ROI from both and the investment was substantial. Freeman should have got a shot much earlier. I saw a lot of Goddard at Sandringham and I question if it was ever going to actually happen.

[rodgerfox]

This is/was exactly my take on it . Our list is ordinary due to our "scattergun approach" to recruiting. We have not focussed on recruiting players with elite skills over the last 5-10 years.
Recruiting is the crux of our problem and the area we need to fix above all else - the coaches can easily be replaced.

W
Billings was elite with his field kicking in U18s.
Gresham was elite with his goal kicking accuracy in the U18s.
Hunter Clark's kicking on both sides was considered elite at U18 level.
McCartin was an elite mark at U18 level.


I honestly don't think recruitment is the issue.

I think it's Richardson's obsession with turning skillful footballers with natural ability, into stodgy role players that are 'strong' and focus on performing mundane acts such as 'bringing the ball to the front of the pack' instead of marking the ball, is why our list appears average.

That, and our lack of good, solid senior players is why we're where we're at. IMO.

Re: Richo (I'm not saying he's a good coach) - although we had a lot of injuries this year, and were missing players that were important to our structure,
our biggest loss was only 54 points. We didn't get blown out of the water.

The scattergun approach to recruiting is our major problem - as the article pointed out.
I'm referring to kicking skills when under serious pressure - the kind of pressure you're subjected to at AFL level.
You need to recruit players whose skills don't fall apart when under pressure.
Hunter Clark is looking promising - but he's just a kid - and Gresham has the evasiveness to make time and space (but is he an elite kick?) - but it's too little too late. What happened in the last 5-12 years prior?
Where is our core of players with elite kicking skills, whose skills hold up under pressure? We don't have a single midfielder with elite kicking skills, while the better teams may have 2-4.
Billings is a good field kick when in space - but not under pressure. He rushes and panics.
Have a look at Burgoyne, Breust, Gunston, Isaac Smith, Rance, Houli, Dustin Martin, Pendlebury, Sidebottom, De Goey, even etc.. under pressure - and compare. You can't compare.

But were those guys 'recruited', or 'developed'?

I believe the latter is the key.


And secondly, I've said this before, but a good kick or handball often takes two to tango, so to speak.

If you have a good system, and are well drilled, you can put the ball to a spot with your eyes closed - and someone will be there waiting for it. It'll make your disposal look awesome.
But if there's no on there expecting it, you look like a spud that can't kick.

I think that's where our issue lies really.

There's no system or method to how we move the nut, and as a result it is just chaotic and scrambled, and it makes us look incredibly poorly skilled and always under extreme pressure.

[dragit]

Cutting Freeman was tough but fair.

I personally think it was silly… and reeks of stubborn richo

When you look at the out of contact list, there is easily space on the list for Freeman… with only Lonie and Pierce worth a spot on form.

Ray Connellan
Nathan Freeman
Sam Gilbert
Hugh Goddard
Darragh Joyce
Doulton Langlands
Jack Lonie
Billy Longer
Darren Minchington
Lewis Pierce
Koby Stevens
Maverick Weller
Nathan Wright


It is a good article and pretty much sums up what a lot of us have been saying for months… including our prospective targets in Lycett, Menzel & Hanneberry.

[bigred]

Cutting Freeman was tough but fair.

I personally think it was silly… and reeks of stubborn richo

When you look at the out of contact list, there is easily space on the list for Freeman… with only Lonie and Pierce worth a spot on form.

Ray Connellan
Nathan Freeman
Sam Gilbert
Hugh Goddard
Darragh Joyce
Doulton Langlands
Jack Lonie
Billy Longer
Darren Minchington
Lewis Pierce
Koby Stevens
Maverick Weller
Nathan Wright


It is a good article and pretty much sums up what a lot of us have been saying for months… including our prospective targets in Lycett, Menzel & Hanneberry.

Yeah I think you are right with Freeman.

[samoht]

But were those guys 'recruited', or 'developed'?

I believe the latter is the key.


And secondly, I've said this before, but a good kick or handball often takes two to tango, so to speak.

If you have a good system, and are well drilled, you can put the ball to a spot with your eyes closed - and someone will be there waiting for it. It'll make your disposal look awesome.
But if there's no on there expecting it, you look like a spud that can't kick.

I think that's where our issue lies really.

There's no system or method to how we move the nut, and as a result it is just chaotic and scrambled, and it makes us look incredibly poorly skilled and always under extreme pressure.

Recruited.
There is a reason that Goddard was a number 1 pick 17 or 18 years ago - it wasn't his leg speed, that's for sure - it was his ability to kick well under pressure. He was recruited for his elite kicking.
Re: us not having a good system/not being well-drilled - a stronger team, with better skills, will always pick apart your system and game plan. Our skills fall apart under pressure. There's a gap there - as a result of our scattergun
recruiting approach over the last 5-12 years, where we have not gone after a Burgoyne, etc.. these silky players. We have not recruited one midfielder with elite skills - we don't have a core of skilled players to build on -
so how do we expect to compete? The better teams have homed in on these players with elite skills, with a plan to recruit a core of them - we didn't.
We have gone backwards as a result of our poor recruiting.
You can recover from a poor choice of coach - you can easily replace the coach - but there's no coming back from years and years of poor "scattergun" recruiting. Good article.

[rodgerfox]

I respectfully disagree.

We recruited Savage, Longer, Hockey, Bruce, Steele, Brown, Roberton, Carlisle, Freeman...and maybe others that I've missed.

That's fairly specific. Two ruckmen, key forward, CHB, FB, two specialist 'running backs' an inside mid and an outside mid.

Savage is no good, but his long kicking is excellent. Most of the time it's the wrong option to kick long - but that's his 'role'.

Bruce has done exactly what the coach asks him to do, as has Brown.
Steele is excellent, and Roberton is good.

The rucks are no good and Freeman clearly a bust.


The elite stuff I mentioned regarding the U18s, we're the official ratings for those guys.
They were labelled elite in those areas by the experts leading into the draft.

But under Richo - they're rubbish in those same areas.


Neeld wrecked young players, and most have never recovered. That's the danger of allowing such poor coaching philosophy to linger at the club for too long.