Ratten and leadership

[outside66]

When we were up and about earlier this year, all the talk from media was how good Ratten is (and to a lesser extent Lade, Billy Slater etc) but once our year went to water, his name (and others) hasn't been mentioned. I honestly don't have a set position on whether Richo is a good coach or not given the hurdles presented to him since coming on board however I did find it a bit unfair that credit was largely dished out to Ratten when we were doing OK and as soon as the wheels came off, it's gone back to Richo yet no mention of Ratten and co.

Whilst I'm at it, I did notice that the 'goal celebrations' that Slater was supposed to have brought in over the pre-season have dropped off a cliff (admittedly not kicking them in the first place would see to that) and this really stood out on the weekend when we were coming back hard and I think it was Bruce who kicked it, hardly anyone got around him. This leads me to think that our current group of players find it difficult to retain even the most basic team instructions/guidelines/philosophy.

A lack of on-field leadership is killing us; Geary has been serviceable as an onfield leader and captain but the drop-off after him is huge. I don't think Ross should be in the leadership group let-alone our VC as the constant example he sets is 'bomb it long without looking'. Hannaz was dropped from the leadership group because he couldn't pull his head in. Robbo was unlucky as we all know. Billings was thrown in there despite not wanting to be there in the first place (Same as Steven was), and Membrey has battled hard and does the right thing.

Aside from Steele, who else that's on our current list, could be promoted to our leadership group for 2020?

[B.M]

Ratten is overrated

Forward line coach of a team that has the lowest scores per i50 in the league.

Lade couldn’t coach a pig to be dirty.
He is yet to see success at any club he’s been at, and

I know I said we overestimate the influence of a senior coach, but when a line coaches line is inept, you have to ask the question.
Bruce, Membrey, Parker, Kent, Long, Hind all been available most of the season.

Our backline imo has been fantastic, given the injuries, they have battled really well.

Mids. Ball movement too slow. Miss Jack Steven

[Saintmatt]

Ratten is overrated

Forward line coach of a team that has the lowest scores per i50 in the league.

Lade couldn’t coach a pig to be dirty.
He is yet to see success at any club he’s been at, and

I know I said we overestimate the influence of a senior coach, but when a line coaches line is inept, you have to ask the question.
Bruce, Membrey, Parker, Kent, Long, Hind all been available most of the season.

Our backline imo has been fantastic, given the injuries, they have battled really well.

Mids. Ball movement too slow. Miss Jack Steven

Poor post. Absolute rubbish.

Ratten has already shown that he can coach at AFL level. His results speak for themselves; as do Richo's and every other coach who's ever been at the helm. They're called facts. And as an Assistant - I'd suggest Alastair Clarkson also rated him highly given his length of tenure at a successful premiership winning club.

Unsure on what basis you say that he is "overrated'. You do know that when the ball is in dispute, forwards require midfielders and defenders to win the ball back and then rebound then connect with the other midfielders/ high HF's to deliver it to them don't you?

Given our defence has been injury ravaged and our 2019 midfield is comfortably the worst collection of starting midfielders in the modern history of the AFL - what exactly would you like Ratten to do with the forwards? The service they get involve mainly long bombs. Bizarrely - our most important forward prior to his injury was Jack Lonie - he's our only true pressure forward. No surprises that we were going quite well up until his injury during the Adel game.

[B.M]

Well if Alan Richardson is held accountable for team performance, so should Ratten be given he is the forward line that cannot kick a score, even when there is i50s

I think Ratten can most probably coach, but his rating by our supporters is over the top.

When we were winning early on, it was due to Ratten and Lade. Since we have been losing, blame is only on one person? where was the scrutiny on those two?
I think Playfair has done a great job with the defense.
Fact is, we want to believe he is a gun coach, because that will give us hope if he’s our next coach, and we wanted to believe he was a great appointment this season.
Facts are
He coached a great team with success at Hawthorn
He has coached a crap team at StK with limited success.

One thing I will say, he’s better than the ruckmen who currently coaches our mids

[bigcarl]

The buck stops with the senior coach.

He decides who plays, who plays in the forward line, who plays in the midfield. He decides the gameplan. He has the power to veto anyone else.

Anything that Ratten has decided or implemented has happened under Richo’s watch.

The buck stops with the senior coach.

[Myron Gaines]

Around the time we had our first couple of consecutive losses, Caroline Wilson said on Footy Classified, “Richo has gone back to his old ways” - this was in relation to Richo micro managing & refusing to take on board advice from his line coaches. A knock that has followed Richo for a number of years is lacking trust in his people, be it players, coaches or generally, staff.

I’m not sure Rats has had a chance to do much “his way”, such is the management style of Richo. I would like to see Rats as head coach for 4-6 weeks once Richo is arsed.

[B.M]

The line coaches are very responsible for each line they look after. It’s not the old days where there is one authoritarian in charge.

Example
When Charlie Cameron was going beserk, AR asked Playfair if a move needed to be made, Playfair indicated he was still the best match up, so AR backed that call.

If Assistants don’t make any decisions, don’t give feedback, don’t advise the senior coach
What exactly is their role.

Ratten can’t take credit for wins, and AR take blame for losses
You can’t have it both ways

I do agree that the buck stops with AR on team performance, but if an area of the ground is failing, it’s the line coach who is also responsible. Our fwd line has been crap.

Both Richo and Ratten and the Forwards are all responsible for that

[Myron Gaines]

The line coaches are very responsible for each line they look after. It’s not the old days where there is one authoritarian in charge.

Example
When Charlie Cameron was going beserk, AR asked Playfair if a move needed to be made, Playfair indicated he was still the best match up, so AR backed that call.

If Assistants don’t make any decisions, don’t give feedback, don’t advise the senior coach
What exactly is their role.

Ratten can’t take credit for wins, and AR take blame for losses
You can’t have it both ways

I do agree that the buck stops with AR on team performance, but if an area of the ground is failing, it’s the line coach who is also responsible. Our fwd line has been crap.

Both Richo and Ratten and the Forwards are all responsible for that

That is the knock on Richo, he’s old school, he’s not progressive & an authoritarian. Anyway, I’m only repeating what Caro has backed up.

[bigcarl]

If it has happened on Richo’s watch, then he is to blame for it.

If he’s not the one to blame then he shouldn’t be coach.

[B.M]

So AR is 100% to blame for team performance. He is the only reason for all of the losses?

[8bloggs]

It's interesting isn't it about Ratten - it's pretty hard to judge his effectiveness when it takes us so long to get the ball into the forwards the opposition have all their players there, the ball is bombed long or the only accurate delivery is to someone on the boundary with a low probability of kicking a six pointer.

[bigred]

Ratten and Lade have been here less than a year.

Richo has six up his sleeve.

[BarryGrogan]

So AR is 100% to blame for team performance. He is the only reason for all of the losses?

Pretty much.


Defensive setup at clearances.

Forwards flat handing the ball to the front of the pack.

Defensive F50 entries (bomb to the square then trap it in)

Defensive ruck selections.

Constant jabbering about pressure and being strong.

Selecting dour mediocre players every week, regardless of output.


This has been Cho's 'brand' for 6 years. And we wonder why we have no AA players. We wonder why gun juniors don't develop. We wonder why we can't kick 80 points. We wonder why guys get knocked out every week. We wonder why Weller plays every week when he barely touches the ball.

His entire system is defensive and conservative.

Cho's idea of a great game seems to be to let the opposition get the ball, then tackle them.
And if we get it, kick it back to them then pressure them to kick it back to us.

The problem is that the part about scoring and pressuring the opposition by hurting them offensively is just completely sacrificed in the process.


Under a different coach, we'd be moaning that we need an A-Grade mid to take from genuine top 6 team to top 2 - not genuine bottom 4 side to bottom 8 side.

[Scollop]

Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Treloar, Adams, De Goey, Hoskin Elliot, Varcoe, Wells, Phillips, Sier, Crisp and a couple of others like Mayne and of course let's not forget Grundy.

Why did it take their specialist midfield coach 4 years to get any decent success with that group?

Ratten didn't have as deep a midfield or as talented imo and he was their midfield coach when they won 3 flags. Not a bad cv right there.

Let him take the reigns for all the reasons everyone else has suggested in this thread and in others. He will improve our midfield and if he's hungry enough I believe he has all the attributes to be successful

[Gershwin]

The line coaches are very responsible for each line they look after. It’s not the old days where there is one authoritarian in charge.

Example
When Charlie Cameron was going beserk, AR asked Playfair if a move needed to be made, Playfair indicated he was still the best match up, so AR backed that call.

If Assistants don’t make any decisions, don’t give feedback, don’t advise the senior coach
What exactly is their role.

Ratten can’t take credit for wins, and AR take blame for losses
You can’t have it both ways

I do agree that the buck stops with AR on team performance, but if an area of the ground is failing, it’s the line coach who is also responsible. Our fwd line has been crap.

Both Richo and Ratten and the Forwards are all responsible for that

So Richo had a choice of going with Playfair or not. Clearly he made the wrong decision. Most managers call for input but they are paid the big bucks to get the decision right.

[Saintmatt]

Well if Alan Richardson is held accountable for team performance, so should Ratten be given he is the forward line that cannot kick a score, even when there is i50s

I think Ratten can most probably coach, but his rating by our supporters is over the top.

When we were winning early on, it was due to Ratten and Lade. Since we have been losing, blame is only on one person? where was the scrutiny on those two?
I think Playfair has done a great job with the defense.
Fact is, we want to believe he is a gun coach, because that will give us hope if he’s our next coach, and we wanted to believe he was a great appointment this season.
Facts are
He coached a great team with success at Hawthorn
He has coached a crap team at StK with limited success.

One thing I will say, he’s better than the ruckmen who currently coaches our mids

It wouldn't matter who coached St Kilda's mids. We have the worst collection of midfielders in the modern history of the AFL. Ross is horrible - gets it heaps and does zero damage with it; Dunstan - doesn't get heaps of it (just has a crack at getting it that's all); Steele - can stop someone but can't get it much himself; Billings - classy ball user and developing but undersized. And none of them kick goals. Jack Steven with his mental health issues is still our most effective mid.

Trying to coach that lot into anything resembling a competitive midfield is either rolling glitter on a turd or trying to whip the aforementioned turd into strawberry jam.

[Teflon]

When we were up and about earlier this year, all the talk from media was how good Ratten is (and to a lesser extent Lade, Billy Slater etc) but once our year went to water, his name (and others) hasn't been mentioned. I honestly don't have a set position on whether Richo is a good coach or not given the hurdles presented to him since coming on board however I did find it a bit unfair that credit was largely dished out to Ratten when we were doing OK and as soon as the wheels came off, it's gone back to Richo yet no mention of Ratten and co.

Whilst I'm at it, I did notice that the 'goal celebrations' that Slater was supposed to have brought in over the pre-season have dropped off a cliff (admittedly not kicking them in the first place would see to that) and this really stood out on the weekend when we were coming back hard and I think it was Bruce who kicked it, hardly anyone got around him. This leads me to think that our current group of players find it difficult to retain even the most basic team instructions/guidelines/philosophy.

A lack of on-field leadership is killing us; Geary has been serviceable as an onfield leader and captain but the drop-off after him is huge. I don't think Ross should be in the leadership group let-alone our VC as the constant example he sets is 'bomb it long without looking'. Hannaz was dropped from the leadership group because he couldn't pull his head in. Robbo was unlucky as we all know. Billings was thrown in there despite not wanting to be there in the first place (Same as Steven was), and Membrey has battled hard and does the right thing.

Aside from Steele, who else that's on our current list, could be promoted to our leadership group for 2020?

Ratten has taken a team to finals
Alan?

[outside66]

When we were up and about earlier this year, all the talk from media was how good Ratten is (and to a lesser extent Lade, Billy Slater etc) but once our year went to water, his name (and others) hasn't been mentioned. I honestly don't have a set position on whether Richo is a good coach or not given the hurdles presented to him since coming on board however I did find it a bit unfair that credit was largely dished out to Ratten when we were doing OK and as soon as the wheels came off, it's gone back to Richo yet no mention of Ratten and co.

Whilst I'm at it, I did notice that the 'goal celebrations' that Slater was supposed to have brought in over the pre-season have dropped off a cliff (admittedly not kicking them in the first place would see to that) and this really stood out on the weekend when we were coming back hard and I think it was Bruce who kicked it, hardly anyone got around him. This leads me to think that our current group of players find it difficult to retain even the most basic team instructions/guidelines/philosophy.

A lack of on-field leadership is killing us; Geary has been serviceable as an onfield leader and captain but the drop-off after him is huge. I don't think Ross should be in the leadership group let-alone our VC as the constant example he sets is 'bomb it long without looking'. Hannaz was dropped from the leadership group because he couldn't pull his head in. Robbo was unlucky as we all know. Billings was thrown in there despite not wanting to be there in the first place (Same as Steven was), and Membrey has battled hard and does the right thing.

Aside from Steele, who else that's on our current list, could be promoted to our leadership group for 2020?

Ratten has taken a team to finals
Alan?

I don't mean to be rude but what's your point?

[Scollop]

Ratten was the boss man in preseason. Ratten was front and centre prior to Round 1 and all the players couldn't speak highly enough of him. All the player interviews that I saw had something positive to say about his refreshing new input and they specifically mentioned learning how to do things 'like most other clubs' so his ip is far far superior as most people can see

The momentum from Ratten arriving at the club and his leadership over the preseason as well as the influence from Billy Slater was one of the main reasons our group were able to put aside the setbacks from season ending injuries to Paddy and Robbo. I believe that momentum has now well and truly fizzled with Cho back in charge

[Joffa Burns]

The line coaches are very responsible for each line they look after. It’s not the old days where there is one authoritarian in charge.

Example
When Charlie Cameron was going beserk, AR asked Playfair if a move needed to be made, Playfair indicated he was still the best match up, so AR backed that call.

If Assistants don’t make any decisions, don’t give feedback, don’t advise the senior coach
What exactly is their role.

Ratten can’t take credit for wins, and AR take blame for losses
You can’t have it both ways

I do agree that the buck stops with AR on team performance, but if an area of the ground is failing, it’s the line coach who is also responsible. Our fwd line has been crap.

Both Richo and Ratten and the Forwards are all responsible for that

Totally agree with this post.

Personally I have no idea about how the structure and dynamics work between the coaches.

Ratten was the messiah early season on this site and still seems fettered, for what reason I do not know.

What I do know is the club backed Richo to turn things around with a new structure this season and they hit the ground running before a multitude of factors halted the momentum.

Mr Basset pays a lot of attention to a consultant/ supporter we will call “Kermit the frog “. Anyone close to the board will work out to whom I refer pretty quickly.

Kermit felt Richo could do a Bevo/Buckley/Hardwick and turn things around in 2019 but has now jumped off board the Richo train big time.

Personally I think Richo should have gone at the end of last year but is a little stiff this year with injuries conspiring against him.

Nonetheless 6 years is long enough to shape your own destiny and he has not been successful so time to go in a new direction.

[Myron Gaines]

Who is the Kermit bloke, I’m intrigued

[Joffa Burns]

Who is the Kermit bloke, I’m intrigued

Look at bay2business corporate group.
A close mate of Bassett is heavily involved, a former corporate revenue raiser who now is an energy expert.

[BarryGrogan]

The line coaches are very responsible for each line they look after. It’s not the old days where there is one authoritarian in charge.

Example
When Charlie Cameron was going beserk, AR asked Playfair if a move needed to be made, Playfair indicated he was still the best match up, so AR backed that call.

If Assistants don’t make any decisions, don’t give feedback, don’t advise the senior coach
What exactly is their role.

Ratten can’t take credit for wins, and AR take blame for losses
You can’t have it both ways

I do agree that the buck stops with AR on team performance, but if an area of the ground is failing, it’s the line coach who is also responsible. Our fwd line has been crap.

Both Richo and Ratten and the Forwards are all responsible for that

Totally agree with this post.

Personally I have no idea about how the structure and dynamics work between the coaches.

Ratten was the messiah early season on this site and still seems fettered, for what reason I do not know.

What I do know is the club backed Richo to turn things around with a new structure this season and they hit the ground running before a multitude of factors halted the momentum.

Mr Basset pays a lot of attention to a consultant/ supporter we will call “Kermit the frog “. Anyone close to the board will work out to whom I refer pretty quickly.

Kermit felt Richo could do a Bevo/Buckley/Hardwick and turn things around in 2019 but has now jumped off board the Richo train big time.

Personally I think Richo should have gone at the end of last year but is a little stiff this year with injuries conspiring against him.

Nonetheless 6 years is long enough to shape your own destiny and he has not been successful so time to go in a new direction.

My take...

If the senior coach sits there and asks Playfair if a move should be made, then accepts it when he says no - then that senior coach should never set foot in a coach's box again. He's simply wasting space.


The senior coach should (and as far as I know, the good ones do) demand that Playfair give him something different in order to fix what was a glaring problem.
Or, if the matchup is not the problem but instead the ease of which the ball was coming in is the problem - the coach needs to identify this and demand a response from the midfield coach.

The coach is the top dog. He developed the system (with inlut from others) and he owns it.

If it's not working, he should know exactly why it's not working - and be pushing his assistants to get it working.

There's a reason the coach is the one screaming down the phone 90% of the time.



The passive management style that BM suggests, probably is what Cho is like - and that is probably exactly why he sucks.




Secondly, regarding Ratten, he's 'highly regarded' because as a young and inexperienced coach he led Carlton from 15th under Pagan to 11th in his first year, then finals in his second. Finals again in his 3rd and 4th seasons (including winning a final) then was sacked for Malthouse after finishing 10th.

Their suckiness after he left and his subsequent success at Hawthorn as an assistant added to the view that he was pretty bloody good at Carlton.


Directly from his mouth, is that he is "at St Kilda to support Richo". Maybe I took it too literally, but I interpreted that to mean that he's not there to fix the joint and make sweeping changes.

[Joffa Burns]

The line coaches are very responsible for each line they look after. It’s not the old days where there is one authoritarian in charge.

Example
When Charlie Cameron was going beserk, AR asked Playfair if a move needed to be made, Playfair indicated he was still the best match up, so AR backed that call.

If Assistants don’t make any decisions, don’t give feedback, don’t advise the senior coach
What exactly is their role.

Ratten can’t take credit for wins, and AR take blame for losses
You can’t have it both ways

I do agree that the buck stops with AR on team performance, but if an area of the ground is failing, it’s the line coach who is also responsible. Our fwd line has been crap.

Both Richo and Ratten and the Forwards are all responsible for that

Totally agree with this post.

Personally I have no idea about how the structure and dynamics work between the coaches.

Ratten was the messiah early season on this site and still seems fettered, for what reason I do not know.

What I do know is the club backed Richo to turn things around with a new structure this season and they hit the ground running before a multitude of factors halted the momentum.

Mr Basset pays a lot of attention to a consultant/ supporter we will call “Kermit the frog “. Anyone close to the board will work out to whom I refer pretty quickly.

Kermit felt Richo could do a Bevo/Buckley/Hardwick and turn things around in 2019 but has now jumped off board the Richo train big time.

Personally I think Richo should have gone at the end of last year but is a little stiff this year with injuries conspiring against him.

Nonetheless 6 years is long enough to shape your own destiny and he has not been successful so time to go in a new direction.

My take...

If the senior coach sits there and asks Playfair if a move should be made, then accepts it when he says no - then that senior coach should never set foot in a coach's box again. He's simply wasting space.


The senior coach should (and as far as I know, the good ones do) demand that Playfair give him something different in order to fix what was a glaring problem.
Or, if the matchup is not the problem but instead the ease of which the ball was coming in is the problem - the coach needs to identify this and demand a response from the midfield coach.

The coach is the top dog. He developed the system (with inlut from others) and he owns it.

If it's not working, he should know exactly why it's not working - and be pushing his assistants to get it working.

There's a reason the coach is the one screaming down the phone 90% of the time.



The passive management style that BM suggests, probably is what Cho is like - and that is probably exactly why he sucks.




Secondly, regarding Ratten, he's 'highly regarded' because as a young and inexperienced coach he led Carlton from 15th under Pagan to 11th in his first year, then finals in his second. Finals again in his 3rd and 4th seasons (including winning a final) then was sacked for Malthouse after finishing 10th.

Their suckiness after he left and his subsequent success at Hawthorn as an assistant added to the view that he was pretty bloody good at Carlton.


Directly from his mouth, is that he is "at St Kilda to support Richo". Maybe I took it too literally, but I interpreted that to mean that he's not there to fix the joint and make sweeping changes.

Good supporting argument on Ratten!

[B.M]

He shouldn’t ask for Playfair’s input, he should demand he fix it?!

Not too sure that’s how you communicate as a leader