Reality bites

[battye]

And spare me "we've been shyte before......so we can handle that" rubbish - this side has spent the last decade DEMANDING respect from the football world.......are we now going to slink back to "pathetic old St Kilda?"

We're already back there unfortunately. I think you'll find very few people rate St Kilda any more. Astonishing really, because we've still got superstars and many proven performers on our list.

The rapid decline surprised me to be honest, I thought we'd hang around the mid-ladder while we still have the Riewoldt's, Fisher's, Milne's etc on our list. I didn't think in the space of 3 years we'd go from Grand Finals to cellar dwellers.

We have heaps of kids that look like they'll be players. There is hope ... but there will be more pain first.

Do we though?

Siposs looks like he could make it, as does Steven. Then we've got guys with potential who have ultimately underdelivered to date (Stanley, Armitage, McEvoy), then daylight to the next group. Who knows what could happen to the next group... Seb Ross, Newnes, Webster, etc. None of them have blown me away, none of them have burst on to the scene, none of them have that X factor about them that Riewoldt, Dal Santo, etc did where you just know they are going to be guns. We may get a few mid-tier players out of our kids but there aren't any stars coming through and that's what we need. An up and coming star player to guide the next generation. We had that transition of stars from Harvey to Riewoldt, but who is Riewoldt going to hand the reigns to?

We let Essendon have the one person who could have guided the next generation.

[battye]

And spare me "we've been shyte before......so we can handle that" rubbish - this side has spent the last decade DEMANDING respect from the football world.......are we now going to slink back to "pathetic old St Kilda?"

We're already back there unfortunately. I think you'll find very few people rate St Kilda any more. Astonishing really, because we've still got superstars and many proven performers on our list.

The rapid decline surprised me to be honest, I thought we'd hang around the mid-ladder while we still have the Riewoldt's, Fisher's, Milne's etc on our list. I didn't think in the space of 3 years we'd go from Grand Finals to cellar dwellers.

We have heaps of kids that look like they'll be players. There is hope ... but there will be more pain first.

Do we though?

Siposs looks like he could make it, as does Steven. Then we've got guys with potential who have ultimately underdelivered to date (Stanley, Armitage, McEvoy), then daylight to the next group. Who knows what could happen to the next group... Seb Ross, Newnes, Webster, etc. None of them have blown me away, none of them have burst on to the scene, none of them have that X factor about them that Riewoldt, Dal Santo, etc did where you just know they are going to be guns. We may get a few mid-tier players out of our kids but there aren't any stars coming through and that's what we need. An up and coming star player to guide the next generation. We had that transition of stars from Harvey to Riewoldt, but who is Riewoldt going to hand the reigns to?

We let Essendon have the one person who could have guided the next generation.

[mightysainters]

Watters genuinely looks like he is very very average..
His team selection, structure and moves throughout a game look hopeless this season..
Bitterly disappointing tbh..
I'm not shattered over the loss, as in the long run (as long as we don't build a losing culture) but extremely disappointed because it appears our coach is very very ordinary

[bobmurray]

We are crap..i knew that..we have been rebuilding since 1966...one year we may well get it right...until then...we are crap...

[Teflon]

And spare me "we've been shyte before......so we can handle that" rubbish - this side has spent the last decade DEMANDING respect from the football world.......are we now going to slink back to "pathetic old St Kilda?"

We're already back there unfortunately. I think you'll find very few people rate St Kilda any more. Astonishing really, because we've still got superstars and many proven performers on our list.

The rapid decline surprised me to be honest, I thought we'd hang around the mid-ladder while we still have the Riewoldt's, Fisher's, Milne's etc on our list. I didn't think in the space of 3 years we'd go from Grand Finals to cellar dwellers.

We have heaps of kids that look like they'll be players. There is hope ... but there will be more pain first.

Do we though?

Siposs looks like he could make it, as does Steven. Then we've got guys with potential who have ultimately underdelivered to date (Stanley, Armitage, McEvoy), then daylight to the next group. Who knows what could happen to the next group... Seb Ross, Newnes, Webster, etc. None of them have blown me away, none of them have burst on to the scene, none of them have that X factor about them that Riewoldt, Dal Santo, etc did where you just know they are going to be guns. We may get a few mid-tier players out of our kids but there aren't any stars coming through and that's what we need. An up and coming star player to guide the next generation. We had that transition of stars from Harvey to Riewoldt, but who is Riewoldt going to hand the reigns to?

We let Essendon have the one person who could have guided the next generation.

Disagree Battye.

No, we dont have Nick Riewoldt mark 2 at the club but thats because we havent drafted him yet. Give us time

What I am sure about is our recruiting has improved - there is genuine quality in some of these kids that needs to be developed but skills/decision making are harder to teach and many of these have them. Im actually bullish that we may end up with a list that has more talented players EVENLY spread as opposed to previous St Kilda squads with 5-7 guns , some reasonable guys and a bunch of also rans/role players who fill gaps and let you down in the big moments.

Ofcourse its early days buy Newnes, Ross, Siposs, Wright, Hickey, Webster ALL have attributes of quality players....lets hope Lee, White join them.

[ShanghaiSaint]

aim seriously for bottom 4.

well.
.... why didnt we go there 2 years ago ffs instead of poncing around.

lol ... reality bites some rather effen slowly i reckon.

said it before 'n i'll say it again ,
that morning at linton st after losing gf2
was THE head up orrifice moment.

this is just and only the delayed truth expressing itself.
... good ol stkilda style.

09 really rocked me, we where so strong that year in all aspects.

[chook23]

Reality is they realised where they were at before us, and have had 12 months getting games into kids

changed your tune from a post earlier in year

sad but this was coming.......and quickly

[bobmurray]

Apart from the 2 development teams i thought the Bulldogs were the worst team in the comp....we couldn't beat them...

We are crap...we play hacks weekly...we must want to stay crap.....maybe we are building...slowly... for 2066

[ShanghaiSaint]

well i did my best to try and not get into this... but if watter keeps this up i think we need to get get rid of him and make a play for someone else.... we're going down hill from 2012 and the list we play is basicly the same. that runing game that came on last year has dried up...

how to replace him, i don't know at this point. not calling his head right now but if things keep going this way he gets a massive fail for this year.

[whiskers3614]

Reality is they realised where they were at before us, and have had 12 months getting games into kids

changed your tune from a post earlier in year

sad but this was coming.......and quickly

and where are all posters who said BJ only left for money and we were just as good as Essendon?

[bobmurray]

Reality is they realised where they were at before us, and have had 12 months getting games into kids

changed your tune from a post earlier in year

sad but this was coming.......and quickly

and where are all posters who said BJ only left for money and we were just as good as Essendon?

Giving it to themselves..just like they were when they made those statements the first time around..don't you know the types that post most...

[Teflon]

Reality is they realised where they were at before us, and have had 12 months getting games into kids

changed your tune from a post earlier in year

sad but this was coming.......and quickly

and where are all posters who said BJ only left for money and we were just as good as Essendon?

BJ left for cash - lets not get confused.

[Moods]

Do you get the feeling that certain posters just relish these losses? - really exacerbates their negative personality. They feel all warm and gushy predicting that the saints were going to be crap and now being vindicated is just sooo triumphant for them. I truly believe that some supporters will be absolutely shattered if/when we win a flag.

[Teflon]

Do you get the feeling that certain posters just relish these losses? - really exacerbates their negative personality. They feel all warm and gushy predicting that the saints were going to be crap and now being vindicated is just sooo triumphant for them. I truly believe that some supporters will be absolutely shattered if/when we win a flag.

I dont think so.

I think supporters are just generally fed up with a side that decides to go out and dish up that shyte and then be asked to "open up and say arrggghh" as some more shyte is being shovelled down their throats for 139 years..is natural.

I have no issue with a negatives post - AS LONG as its followed up with a suggestion or 3.

[suss]

God there's some misery on here. Hitting the bottom for a couple of years doesn't mean forever in the wilderness. Look at Collingwood 02/03 - grand final appearances, crap for 2-3 years, then finals / competitive for the next 8+. Sydney, West Coast, Hawthorn - there are plenty of examples ...

Thinking back to 1966 doesn't acknowledge that the game changed when the salary cap and draft were introduced. If you have good systems, good management, good people and invest in of all those things, then you won't be down for long.

If you take the Melbourne approach and tank for draft picks without getting the other stuff right, then you're in deep doggy doo doo ... I am confident we have the other stuff right.

[Richter]

We're seeing the nucleus of a new team being slowly given opportunities. The big issue is the 2008-10 gap which means that our younger guns are still teenagers. We saw what happened when Murdoch and Saunders came in to seniors... they didn't get any footy... better off that they go back to Sandy and learn to play with the ball in hand this year and come on a bit more into the seniors from next year.

Looking to 2017/18 we can already pick a side from our current under 25s that looks ok...

Webster Stanley ????
Roberton ???? Wright
Newnes Murdoch Saunders
Siposs Lee ????
Saad ???? ????

Armitage McEvoy Steven

Int: Geary Hickey Dunell

[Greg T]

God there's some misery on here. Hitting the bottom for a couple of years doesn't mean forever in the wilderness. Look at Collingwood 02/03 - grand final appearances, crap for 2-3 years, then finals / competitive for the next 8+. Sydney, West Coast, Hawthorn - there are plenty of examples ...

Thinking back to 1966 doesn't acknowledge that the game changed when the salary cap and draft were introduced. If you have good systems, good management, good people and invest in of all those things, then you won't be down for long.

If you take the Melbourne approach and tank for draft picks without getting the other stuff right, then you're in deep doggy doo doo ... I am confident we have the other stuff right.

Misery..?=1 flag in 140 years.thats miserable.
Collingwood 75,000 members ,elite admin marketing etc ,Hawthorn 50,000 etc etc,
IMO they haven't got it right at all.
Losing tonite sets us back light years in an 18 team comp.
I love the club,too many people accept these loses as ok.
Hawthorn,Coll just don't accept this.Ask jeff Kennett.

[cannavaro17]

Im laughing hard... im not an afl expert but I do consider myself a little knowledgeable on life. I think many if you are far from the mark. There is no crisis...this is just a stage of our transitioning to a team capable of winning a premiership. I think watters is doing a good job keeping the team compeitive... enough said chill out and judge watters in 5 years on his ability to launch a team capable of competing for the cup. Lol please to whoever thinks they know better or could do better lol

[southernsaint]

Is this a saints internet fan forum or a chicken coop, lots of chicken littles running around crying about the sky falling in

[SinCitySainter]

How would you make us better? It's painful but will sacking and burning make us better. It is what it is. We are paying for a poor recruiting era. Kids and Grandpas at the moment. Melbourne's sacking of coaches has put them back 4 years.

Geezus...Ive said this before but here goes.

1. Dont simply accept the poor form of a Dal Santo (who is playing WAY below capability) find out why???? Play him forward?
2. We have an inexperienced coach he needs to be surrounded by the best. Turn over assistants, go all out for those currently at top clubs.
3. Look to introduce an experienced football head to support Watters
4. Review/changes head of recruiting (heard to many horror stories....questioning his ability)
5. New Prez who can actually be the FACE of the club cause we have none.
6. End of season starts now. Jones, Blake, Kosi (squeeze in his 200th), Ray, Milne, all play little or no games moving forward. All retire/move on seasons end. PLAY KIDS.
7. Probable trade bait - Dal/Gilbert/Gwilt/Fisher
8. Targets end year - Watts/Frawley (and any other mature player in that age bracket worthy)
9. No trading of top picks
10. Aim seriously for less than 5 wins - bottom 4. We need top 5 pick.

IMO Watters should not be judged on win/losses this year or next. He has to be judged on the development and performance of less than 50 game players. IF they produce performances that demonstrate they are taking steps forward to becoming good players he is rewarded.

You have contradicted yourself.
Target Watts/Frawley but no trading of top picks.
How do you propose we get these players, ask nicely, pinch them while Melbourne are looking at a butterfly.
You also said we shouldn't accept mediocrity and poor form but we should deliberately lose games.

[SinCitySainter]

God there's some misery on here. Hitting the bottom for a couple of years doesn't mean forever in the wilderness. Look at Collingwood 02/03 - grand final appearances, crap for 2-3 years, then finals / competitive for the next 8+. Sydney, West Coast, Hawthorn - there are plenty of examples ...

Thinking back to 1966 doesn't acknowledge that the game changed when the salary cap and draft were introduced. If you have good systems, good management, good people and invest in of all those things, then you won't be down for long.

If you take the Melbourne approach and tank for draft picks without getting the other stuff right, then you're in deep doggy doo doo ... I am confident we have the other stuff right.

There you have it you hit the nail on the head but unfortunately you knocked it in sideways because you completely missed the point.
Collingwood, Sydney, West Coast and Hawthorn all have one thing we and the Doggies don't have, MONEY.
If you have money you can invest in good people, facilities etc....
Without it you haven't got that luxury.
Our club has enough funds to be able to survive but not to be able to invest and grow.
18 clubs, rich and powerful at the top, poor and irrelevant at the bottom, this is the AFL blueprint for the future.

[SydneySainter]

God there's some misery on here. Hitting the bottom for a couple of years doesn't mean forever in the wilderness. Look at Collingwood 02/03 - grand final appearances, crap for 2-3 years, then finals / competitive for the next 8+. Sydney, West Coast, Hawthorn - there are plenty of examples ...

Thinking back to 1966 doesn't acknowledge that the game changed when the salary cap and draft were introduced. If you have good systems, good management, good people and invest in of all those things, then you won't be down for long.

If you take the Melbourne approach and tank for draft picks without getting the other stuff right, then you're in deep doggy doo doo ... I am confident we have the other stuff right.

Comparing us to the 02/03 Pies side is a far reach, as they got the likes of Pendlebury, Thomas, Cloke & Reid post their grand final period.

[defacto]

Let's face it, we just got beaten by not only the worst team in the competition, but the worst club in the history of the game. Surely this is sone kind of nadir for or club, even for one that has witnessed many crippling blows. Tonight was an unacceptable disgrace. We have a coach who is clearly not up to the task, nor are his assistants. We have a lame duck CEO who earns 750k. We have a head of recruiting who has failed at every other job in his so-called career.

I, for one, having consulted to the club over tine, now realise our club is f&$ked. We 're even behind that pathetic rabble from the western suburbs. An invisible, pathetically silent president (right!), an overpaid CEO, a coach who couldn't coax a fart out of a toilet, a so called recruiting manager who is a career failure and arse licker and a bunch of assistant coaches who are clearly no good. Lets face it,we will never win another premiership. I know plenty on here will tell me to piss off, and let me hurry out without letting the door hit me etc. etc., but as much as I hate to admit it, I now realise my relationship with the saints will never be consummated.

so easy to blame the coach.

i have seen watters coaching for many years now. his work with the subi colts was excellent and he turned many kids into great players, some of which are playing AFL now. after his work with the colts he took subi to 3 grand finals in a row and won 2, when many people said subi were done

if you're not going to walk the hard line to give us the best opportunity in the future, then piss off. i'd much rather us put up with the short term pain of playing the kids, than using the older more experienced players to get a win.

we lost the battle tonight, but its more important that we win the war and get a flag in 5 years

[Harvey To Hayes]

We're the only club who has won 11 games or more every year for ten years, and in this climate of equalisation that is unsustainable. We're paying the price for a long run of "success" which equates to no decent draft picks, plus topping up our list when we were legitimately close to a flag - always a risk but a worthwhile one IMHO - and then some bad luck as well (trading our first decent pick in ages for Lovett who didn't play a game through an unforseeable scenario). There's been some ordinary recruitment in the mix as well, but for the most part this slide was inevitable. Everyone's bagging Watters but I can't think of any messiahs out there who were on the market at the time who may have done better with the list they would have inherited.

I flew down from Brisbane for this game (and to see my family) and I chose this round because I thought I'd get to hear the song, and it wasn't to be, but I'm not throwing in the towel. Yesterday sucked but then I think of Steven, Armo, Roberton, Wright, Ross, Stanley, Hickey, Big Mac etc etc and I know we'll be back up around the action before too long with just a modicum of planning and good management, and despite all the bleatings above I don't think we're doing too badly in this regard.

If 2013 is only ever remembered as a year when we ushered in a lot of young blood with upside and were the first club in VFL/AFL history to play a home game overseas then that is good enough for me. Maybe that's because I went to nearly every game through the '70s and '80s, you people who didn't live through that experience know nothing about bottoming out and sustained mediocrity, this current year is nothing in comparison...

Loved the club then with all my heart and love the club now with all my heart. Disappointed but unbowed.

[whiskers3614]

Agree with everything you said apart from Lovett scenario being unforseeable!
I was absolutely livid when his recruitment was announced, you can't bring good footballers with behaviour issues in to a club let alone ordinary ones like Lovett.
Losing Ball and "gaining" Lovett was more detrimental to the club than Lyon's "role players" and lack of development!