Differences between Watters and Richardson???

[Zed]

I Can't see us winning more than 5 games this year - or next year , and maybe even the year after. All I hope for is that AR can get games into the kids, teach them how to play a brand of foory that will eventually win games and win finals. I also hope he weeds out the guys who can't dispose of the ball accurately.

[Goose is king]

I would like players to rotate positions a bit more to see what they have on offer
Webster on a forward flank
Wright forward pressure role when he gets back
Etc etc

[Sainternist]

It's a harsh assessment from SaintKev. Although, he's made some valid points. Perhaps Richo needs to experiment a little more with positional changes and with some strategy. Why not? He's got nothing to lose right now.

Still early days to come for Richo. Hasn't even coached for half a season as an AFL coach. He didn't exactly luck out in inheriting a great list of players either. We're just going to have to be patient with him at this stage.

[jamesmc]

Im struggling to see enormous differences in the way we play either.

Remember in 2012 we won 12 games in Watters first season. We wont win half that many this year.

Ive never been big on coach hype or the coach as a messiah. The good ones are never as good as they say and the bad ones are never as bad. I am a big believer in players and lists though. Its all about talent and timing. Most coaches probably fairly similar - sure there are differences - but these are small compared with differences in playing lists. You parachute Justin Leppitsch into Port Adelaide and they will finish top 4 still. You parachute Alistair Clarkson into Brisbane or Melbourne (or the Saints) and they still finish bottom 4.

This wont be a popular thread though.

+1

[Dis Believer]

Geeez, we don't want to go early do we.

Here's one big difference, Richo has coached exactly eight games. And over half his team has played less then 50 matches, many less then 20 matches.

But it's good that you gave him a decent long run at it.......

[saintspremiers]

It is really difficult to assess Richardson's impact at this early stage, apart from the fact that our defensive efforts (particularly in the first 5 weeks, barring Adelaide) were definitely improved compared with last year.

The players repeat Richardson's message frequently in the media, and the focus is clearly on the basics of effort, pressure and playing a role. Even the young players have repeated this mantra publicly. They are clearly listening to him, and whilst some factors - inexperience, fitness, injuries - may impact on them actually carrying out his instructions, you can see that they are trying.

I think we can draw some similarities between Richardson and GT in the way that both are prepared to bring in young players and let them play football without too much complication. Great examples are Billings, Dunstan and Curren.

Without disclosing confidential information - SW was a disaster in terms of players trying to understand what he wanted, how he wanted them to do it and whether they were performing against his expectations.

This was something that made GT a great teacher and developer of a young side - his ability to galvanise around simple messages. Tactically this approach may not always work as well in a stronger team, but at this stage of our development, I think it creates the right environment for a young group.

I think it's also been appreciated by the more experienced players, who can understand the message and impart it to the younger guys. This is a relief for them, as it's something they tried to do under SW but his "style" made it nearly impossible.

So Richardson's impact in these areas has been strong.

My understanding is that he is markedly more professional around the club than SW.

As with any coach, time will tell.

Good assessment. SW was a tool. Don't care about the confidential stuff because that one T word sums him up perfectly when you join the dots.

[Verdun66]

A big difference between SW and Richo are the players they had/have at their disposal. In Watters first year he had Goddard, Dal Santo, Milne, Blake, McEvoy, Kosi for starters. And the rest of our older experienced players 2-3 years younger than they are now.

Richo came in very late to a club ravaged by various issues. He is a renowned development coach. Development doesn't take 5 seconds, and so I am amazed that some supporters are so shallow in their understanding of what it takes to long-term build a playing list that will have a tilt. Plus all the injuries we are currently suffering. These guys have hardly ever played together, let alone the fact that we have so many inexperienced young players with 1,2,3 pre-seasons under their belt.

It will take time, and the low draft picks we get will take time as well. Boyd and Patton haven't done too much yet, so if we get a Key Position player in the Draft, it might take quite a while for that player to come good. If at all...because sadly it is a bit of a lottery.

I am going to be annoyed, frustrated and embarrassed with some of our games in the future. Won't like it, but I've been there before. And the rays of light coming from our youngsters will encourage me to think that we will pass the Carltons of this world in 2-3 years, and dominate them again.

[Sainternist]

A big difference between SW and Richo are the players they had/have at their disposal. In Watters first year he had Goddard, Dal Santo, Milne, Blake, McEvoy, Kosi for starters. And the rest of our older experienced players 2-3 years younger than they are now.

Richo came in very late to a club ravaged by various issues. He is a renowned development coach. Development doesn't take 5 seconds, and so I am amazed that some supporters are so shallow in their understanding of what it takes to long-term build a playing list that will have a tilt. Plus all the injuries we are currently suffering. These guys have hardly ever played together, let alone the fact that we have so many inexperienced young players with 1,2,3 pre-seasons under their belt.

It will take time, and the low draft picks we get will take time as well. Boyd and Patton haven't done too much yet, so if we get a Key Position player in the Draft, it might take quite a while for that player to come good. If at all...because sadly it is a bit of a lottery.

I am going to be annoyed, frustrated and embarrassed with some of our games in the future. Won't like it, but I've been there before. And the rays of light coming from our youngsters will encourage me to think that we will pass the Carltons of this world in 2-3 years, and dominate them again.

AMEN to that.

I don't reckon it'll get any worse after this year. Have a feeling 2015 will have glimmers of promise reminiscent of 2003.

Would love it if we left the likes of Carlton in the dust in a couple of years time. Would certainly be worth the wait. If you think about it, Carlton could be in a lot more strife than we are right now in the not so distant future. Their recruiting has been abysmal in recent time. Once Mickey Milkshakes' tenure is up, heads will roll at Princess Park.

[Verdun66]

Carlton can't quite work out where they are. One minute they are contenders, next minute a rebuild. I think we will leave them in the dust. To sign Gibbs, Murphy etc will take big money. With Judd, Kreuzer etc their salary cap situation can't be pretty. Maybe they should let Gibbs go and get something for him..... Like we did with Goddard.

I think we are clearer about our situation, and as ugly as it is, we have bitten the bullet. Our salary cap is quite manageable compared to 3-4 years ago. When the time comes we can throw big money at the right players, and won't shoot ourselves in the foot.

[White Winmar]

I spoke to a very senior administrator at the club recently, who had a ringside seat to the SW fiasco, and he made the following distinctions between the two. Watters was good one on one, but eventually lost the group, the administration and everyone else at the club because of his insatiable desire to control everything. Had he stayed, i was told, we would've lost up to ten players, (al a Brisbane) and most of our assistant coaches.

By contrast, Richo i was told, has been a unifying force amongst the players and the rest of the club. He is very clear in his instruction and requirements and doesn't have a manic desire to control all aspects of the club. The whole place has become happier and more unified as a result. All hail Richo! Give him the time he needs. It may take him a few years to get the results, but I was told that if we persisted with the smurf, our club was doomed and would have entered an irreversible "death spiral".

[The Fireman]

Time to start looking for a new coach..

[Enrico_Misso]

Allan Jeans would switch Howell effectively from defence to attack, or vice versa. Cowboy, Laurence and Breen could play effectively at either end.

I remember a match at Glenferrie - prob very early 70s.
We were struggling and Hawthorn had a handy lead.
Then Jeansie sent out the message "Move the Cowboy to full-forward".
Cowboy then ran (or jogged) from FB the length of the ground (which isn't very far on that ground).
But he didn't take any detours and bumped in to a few Hawthorn guys on the way.
It certainly got the crowd going and lifted the players.
I just can't remember if we turned it around and won.

[gringo]

I think the biggest difference is that Watters had cool hair and Richo has a funny jutting lip like John Howard. Watters talked like a real estate agent and Richo talks like a cop. Watters was very very little and Richo isn't that little but he might still allow us to get a multiple booking order with those dwarf entertainers.

[PJ]

Watters had 2 years Richo has had 8 games.

I'm really not sure why you'd even bother making comparisons given Watters got the flick because he had his own understanding of his role - different it would seem to what everyone else at the club thought. People were happy for the saints to serve up crap last year because we were "blooding" young players and in transition and appeared to be going down the attack at all cost road. In the mean time Watters turned into the Fuhrer.

Richo is here to develop the players, the club, the culture and to bring what he is highly regarded for to the table. We have looked (in games) way better than anything served up last year despite the injuries and lack of perceived success and have found some great players along the way.

We are a bottom 4 team with a developing list and game style and have a coach that is himself developing.

He is neither smug nor dismissive.

Can't think why you'd be making comparisons.

[supersaints]

I spoke to a very senior administrator at the club recently, who had a ringside seat to the SW fiasco, and he made the following distinctions between the two. Watters was good one on one, but eventually lost the group, the administration and everyone else at the club because of his insatiable desire to control everything. Had he stayed, i was told, we would've lost up to ten players, (al a Brisbane) and most of our assistant coaches.

By contrast, Richo i was told, has been a unifying force amongst the players and the rest of the club. He is very clear in his instruction and requirements and doesn't have a manic desire to control all aspects of the club. The whole place has become happier and more unified as a result. All hail Richo! Give him the time he needs. It may take him a few years to get the results, but I was told that if we persisted with the smurf, our club was doomed and would have entered an irreversible "death spiral".

Recall an interview with Malthouse proudly saying he advised Watters (and the Dude who Melbourne sacked) to ensure that they control everything in order to be successful , looks like they followed his Mantra. Malthouse is the biggest control freak ever. Those who are interested in he club and the players encourage growth and delegate were practical.

[tony74]

Richo has the players

And apparently
the coaching staff
the ancillary staff
the office staff
and everyone else involved with the Club.

Watters apparently managed to lose most of them.

As someone who has a little to do with the inner workings, Watters slowly but surely managed to rub everyone ( I sat on the fence I will admit ) the wrong way and became impossible to work with. It didn't matter whether it was Jill at reception or the Angels cutting up the chicken, he just was hard to please. And as for the players and senior coaches.....
Richo is pretty well the opposite. All staff, players, coaches etc were a little bit hesitant at the start ( or so I've been told ) to have full confidence in him but as the weeks and now months pass by the mood, optimism and belief in the club continues to rise ( or so I've been told). Even after the recent losses.
Let's face it, most senior coaches and their assistants are much the same. You need the players, both ability wise and support wise. He has the players support wise in spades, the ability side will come in time

( or so I've been told )

[Spud]

Geeez, we don't want to go early do we.

Here's one big difference, Richo has coached exactly eight games. And over half his team has played less then 50 matches, many less then 20 matches.

But it's good that you gave him a decent long run at it.......

The voice of reason

[Cairnsman]

Richo has the players

And apparently
the coaching staff
the ancillary staff
the office staff
and everyone else involved with the Club.

Watters apparently managed to lose most of them.

As someone who has a little to do with the inner workings, Watters slowly but surely managed to rub everyone ( I sat on the fence I will admit ) the wrong way and became impossible to work with. It didn't matter whether it was Jill at reception or the Angels cutting up the chicken, he just was hard to please. And as for the players and senior coaches.....
Richo is pretty well the opposite. All staff, players, coaches etc were a little bit hesitant at the start ( or so I've been told ) to have full confidence in him but as the weeks and now months pass by the mood, optimism and belief in the club continues to rise ( or so I've been told). Even after the recent losses.
Let's face it, most senior coaches and their assistants are much the same. You need the players, both ability wise and support wise. He has the players support wise in spades, the ability side will come in time

( or so I've been told )

Thanks for the insight T74.

[saintspremiers]

Richo has the players

And apparently
the coaching staff
the ancillary staff
the office staff
and everyone else involved with the Club.

Watters apparently managed to lose most of them.

As someone who has a little to do with the inner workings, Watters slowly but surely managed to rub everyone ( I sat on the fence I will admit ) the wrong way and became impossible to work with. It didn't matter whether it was Jill at reception or the Angels cutting up the chicken, he just was hard to please. And as for the players and senior coaches.....
Richo is pretty well the opposite. All staff, players, coaches etc were a little bit hesitant at the start ( or so I've been told ) to have full confidence in him but as the weeks and now months pass by the mood, optimism and belief in the club continues to rise ( or so I've been told). Even after the recent losses.
Let's face it, most senior coaches and their assistants are much the same. You need the players, both ability wise and support wise. He has the players support wise in spades, the ability side will come in time

( or so I've been told )

How well received was Watters in his first year? When did the wheels start to get wobbly? Was there an incident that was the trigger point, or just a slow and steady decline in his performance??

[Con Gorozidis]

Watters really reminds me of K Rudd.

Bit of silver tongue and media darling and easy to like on the surface- but underneath a micro manager and egotist who has no idea how to delegate.

[Sainternist]

Allan Jeans would switch Howell effectively from defence to attack, or vice versa. Cowboy, Laurence and Breen could play effectively at either end.

I remember a match at Glenferrie - prob very early 70s.
We were struggling and Hawthorn had a handy lead.
Then Jeansie sent out the message "Move the Cowboy to full-forward".
Cowboy then ran (or jogged) from FB the length of the ground (which isn't very far on that ground).
But he didn't take any detours and bumped in to a few Hawthorn guys on the way.
It certainly got the crowd going and lifted the players.
I just can't remember if we turned it around and won.

It was a few years before my time, but I'll try to narrow it down for you.

Round 18, 1970? Neck and neck at three quarter time, but we finished supremely in the final quarter with 4 goals to 1, running away to win by 25 points.

Round 15, 1971? From the qaurter by quarter scores that looked close, but Hathorn outscored us 7 goals to 4 in the final quarter and we lost by 23 points. They really had our number that year.

Round 22, 1972? We seemed to be leading the match for the entire game and won by 3 goals, effectively eliminating Hawthorn from the finals. First year there were more than four teams in the finals. At least there was some revenge for 1971!

Round 20, 1973? We trailed at half time and came home with a wet sail, outscoring the Hawks 10 goals to 5 in the second half for a 19 point win.

In 1974 we got flogged by them when we met them at Glenferrie, so I'm guessing it wasn't that match.

Watters really reminds me of K Rudd.

Bit of silver tongue and media darling and easy to like on the surface- but underneath a micro manager and egotist who has no idea how to delegate.

Funny comparison. Gringo has compared Richo to John Howard. I'm in no way a fan of Little Johnny, but if Richo can stick around as long as he did in the top job (11 years), you'd think we'd be in for an exciting future under his leadership.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

look i firmly believe that Watters could coach and could build the team .. he was on that path now it may have seemed like he was setting up a poor game plan but i think the thing of it was last year and this year was always going to be about seeing what stenghts and weaknesses we have to build the future game plan to be successful.... the main problem with Watters was he somewhere along the way lost the players and support staff and once you had that situation his days were always numbered ... with Richo he in the same light of Watters is building this team and the game plan for the future to be successful .. you mention that Richo keeps players in positions they are losing for too long and you are prob right if the sole goal is to win that specific game but the sole goal is not winning ..yes we go into each game trying to win but the bigger picture is about getting experiance into the players in the roles that we want them for the future ie if Stanley is getting destroyed up forward he needs to learn how to work his way through that - moving him to the back line wont do that keeping him in position with the instruction to keep on at it yeah will prob see us lose but he will learn more from that then not ... same with guys like curren he will prob get a run with job on Abblett , Garry will prob tear him a new one but we get more long term having Curren chase the best in the comp then we would if we slapped Jones on Abblett and gave curren a softer target ...

to me Watters carried on like he was a 3 time premiership coach with oodles of experiance demanding power and respect that he was perhaps not entitled to given his actual experiance .. to me Richo knows he's a rookie coach , he relates well with the players , from seeing first hand i know he is more friendly and accepting of the staff and at this stage agrees to pretty much what is asked of him (see the after game coaches address when we win or lose - look at the increase of content shown by the club each week with team selection etc.) in order to help the club keep its members engaged in this down period ...

im a big fan of Richo to be honest and i can see him making us a really good team moving forward

[PJ]

One is short and one is.......less short.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

funny you gowith short .... Watters at the moment in Perth has a media gig alongside Peter Bell and Daniel Kerr ... not a lot of height in that group ...

[Saints94]

Has Scotty actually spoken out about his sacking? besides saying he will get a kick out of watching players like Curren & Webster.