Ross Lyon after today

[samoht]

For what it's worth, I thought he coached poorly in the GF of 09.

Not stirring here but…

What parts of the game do you think he coached poorly in that 09 GF?

58 to 42 inside 50's would suggest that we weren't playing particularly defensive football.

how about forgetting to play ball for most of the 4th quarter ffs...........,and lyin admitted he just forgot.....that should do for starters...

There's quality inside 50's and then there's the other type - bombing the ball haphazardly into the F50 and hoping your forwards are going to mark singlehandedly against 2 or 3 opponents.

[plugger66]

For what it's worth, I thought he coached poorly in the GF of 09.

In GF1 he coached brilliantly after half time - ordinary and predictable in the 1st half.

In GF2 he went back to ordinary and predictable.


I always felt he turned an incredible group of players into a dour, overly defensive and rather impotent team.


I think he's done pretty much the same at Freo.

I know you and the RL haters will never answer this but why couldn't the 2004-06 list win a flag when it was clearly and I mean clearly a better side. That rather impotent side won 19 in a row and it was near the list GT had. People who are that biased cant see he turned a very good list at best into a great list. And those he say he left us short on manpower again refuse to acknowledge the rot started in 04 and actually slowed a bit with the recruiting of Ray, Schneider, Dempster, King and MG. Stop closing you eyes to fact he is a veruy good coach. Its actually getting a bit pathetic especially coming from someone who keeps saying how much he now hates the game. You are scallop are sounding like sooks who cant handle we lost 2 GF's. Its over you need to stop thinking of RL.

[plugger66]

Well in 3 or 4 years time you may well be right, it doesn't help your argument any here though.
Why wouldn't you count Roughead? Fremantles version of him was Kepler Bradley.
Their version of Gunston was - no-one.
Franklin - Pavlich

Your basic premise is Lyon is a very good (maybe even a great coach, am I right?) - and you're doing everything to support that.
My contention is he's a reasonable AFL coach who has coached 2 great sides.
We only had 12 and 1/2 wins in his last year with us, a pecentage of 100% and were clearly on a decline.

How many wins would we have had this year under him - given our injuries, and where our list is at?

Reasonable coach? Seriously. Second best record at the Saints and by a long way so lets see in 140 years we have had a very good coach in Jeans and a reasonable coach in RL. The rest must be poor at best. Yep that's a real solid statement.

Can you tell us how these very goodsides were going before RL got there? Please humour me.

[plugger66]

For what it's worth, I thought he coached poorly in the GF of 09.

Not stirring here but…

What parts of the game do you think he coached poorly in that 09 GF?

58 to 42 inside 50's would suggest that we weren't playing particularly defensive football.

how about forgetting to play ball for most of the 4th quarter ffs...........,and lyin admitted he just forgot.....that should do for starters...

There's quality inside 50's and then there's the other type - bombing the ball haphazardly into the F50 and hoping your forwards are going to mark singlehandedly against 2 or 3 opponents.

This is how RL haters work. When using solid AFL stats that they would usually use in their favour they then make up excuses why those stats aren't relevant in this case. Stinger isn't worth replying to with his anger.

[Bunk_Moreland]

Fact: SW arrested the decline in his first year as coach - and we lost some very close games, could have finished with 15 wins

that is just incorrect. It is NOT A FACT.

We were a finals team in 2011 we were NOT a finals team in 2012 vis a vis - WE WENT BACKWARDS in 2012 - Watters first year

There is no arguing that. We finished higher in 2011 than in 2012 - that is an indisputable FACT.

Did he subsequently lose the plot in his second year - was he toeing the line in his first year, who knows ? Based on his first year result,

We went backwards in 2012, then 3rd last in 2013

yes he showed up RL and took the shine off his "great" coach epithet - so regardless of whatever we may think of SW, I'll still grant him that.

How? Lyon got us to Final s 4 out of five times, three times top four. Watters took us from a finals team to an also ran. How is that arresting the decline?

I'll answer for you. It did not arrest any decline.

Please do not make stuff up. And please do not make facts up.

A team in decline, is probably like a ship taking in water - so it might seem like we were still managing to keep afloat there for a while, but then when all resistance was overcome you just sink like a rock. RL also put recycled ballast in the distressed ship.

silly silly analogy. How can you say that after you argued that Watters arrested the decline? You sound very confused (and incorrect about arresting any decline BTW)

We're both happy that he's moved on - and I think he's a reasonable coach.

Yes we are happy he has moved on, and really nobody could take your observations on what type of coach Lyon is after you made up facts to support some spurious theory.

[samoht]

Reasonable coach? Seriously. Second best record at the Saints and by a long way so lets see in 140 years we have had a very good coach in Jeans and a reasonable coach in RL. The rest must be poor at best. Yep that's a real solid statement.

Can you tell us how these very goodsides were going before RL got there? Please humour me.

And what would his record look like if he stayed on with us?
I know where it was heading - 100% and 12 wins in his last year - we quickly went for a great side to an average side. He left before we became a poor side.

[dragit]

He left before we became a poor side.

You've got something right…
Another club head-hunted him on massive coin, then extended the deal half-way through… with all things considered, they must be pretty happy you'd think.

[plugger66]

Reasonable coach? Seriously. Second best record at the Saints and by a long way so lets see in 140 years we have had a very good coach in Jeans and a reasonable coach in RL. The rest must be poor at best. Yep that's a real solid statement.

Can you tell us how these very goodsides were going before RL got there? Please humour me.

And what would his record look like if he stayed on with us?
I know where it was heading - 100% and 12 wins in his last year - we quickly went for a great side to an average side. He left before we became a poor side.

How wouldn't know what he record would have looked like if he stayed. What would not have changed is he made 2 GF's which apart Jeans, no other Saints coach has done so what ever happened if he stayed wouldn't have changed he is the second most successful coach the club has had and you rate him only reasonable.

[plugger66]

He left before we became a poor side.

You've got something right…
Another club head-hunted him on massive coin, then extended the deal half-way through… with all things considered, they must be pretty happy you'd think.

This is the point of all the RL haters. Why would another club do that if he was only a reasonable or good coach. They refuse to use logic which makes it hard to have a serious discussion with.

Now if you don't rate him as a person that a another topic but the guy can coach and does it very well.

[samoht]

He left before we became a poor side.

You've got something right…
Another club head-hunted him on massive coin, then extended the deal half-way through… with all things considered, they must be pretty happy you'd think.

We can all count our blessings that they swooped then (you said you were happy that he's gone - that's one thing we agree on) - while Lyon is counting coin.
He's obvioulsy a better coach than Mark Harvey.

[Johnny Member]

Terry Wallace was headhunted too.

[plugger66]

Terry Wallace was headhunted too.

Yes he was and so was Matthews, MM, Tom Hafey and so on. Using names to prove a point doesn't always prove anything.

[Johnny Member]

I think it does prove a point.

It proves that just because a club poached him doesn't mean he is very good.

[Johnny Member]

No club gave Ken Hinkley a job at all.

[dragit]

I think it does prove a point.

It proves that just because a club poached him doesn't mean he is very good.

No, but a team renowned for being soft beating Geelong in a final consecutive years, one at Geelong on the way to a Grand Final suggests he is either:

A) A good coach

B) Just super lucky that a team came good under him (twice)

[plugger66]

I think it does prove a point.

It proves that just because a club poached him doesn't mean he is very good.

Who poached Wallace by the way?

[dragit]

No club gave Ken Hinkley a job at all.

…and the moon is made of cheese, but I'm not sure what the price of tea is in china currently.

[plugger66]

No club gave Ken Hinkley a job at all.

Or Brett Bowey.

[Animal Enclosure]

Lots of re-writing history going on here just to suit a dislike of someone.

I hate Lyon for leaving us when he did & in the circumstances that he did HOWEVER he is a brilliant coach that IMO has been let down 3 times by players wilting under the pressure of finals footy.

We were not dour & boring in 2009. We stopped teams scoring & obliterated them at the other end.

In 2010 we lost our main avenue to goal to injury for 12 weeks. Alternatives were tried until the ultra defensive game plan was enacted. It got us to another GF when realistically we weren't the 2nd best team going around.

I think all the game plan can't win a GF is utter utter BS. Two dodgy bounces & some straight kicking at goal & he'd have three in his bag.

He's a dog for leaving but a dog who is still just about the best in the business.

[Johnny Member]

I think it does prove a point.

It proves that just because a club poached him doesn't mean he is very good.

No, but a team renowned for being soft beating Geelong in a final consecutive years, one at Geelong on the way to a Grand Final suggests he is either:

A) A good coach

B) Just super lucky that a team came good under him (twice)

None of that is relevant to my point.

[Johnny Member]

No club gave Ken Hinkley a job at all.

…and the moon is made of cheese, but I'm not sure what the price of tea is in china currently.

Read this to put it in context:

"This is the point of all the RL haters. Why would another club do that if he was only a reasonable or good coach. They refuse to use logic which makes it hard to have a serious discussion with. "



This statement suggests that he must be very good because another club poached him.

The Wallace and Hinkley examples prove that what clubs do does not prove that a coach is good, very good, great or shithouse.

[dragit]

No club gave Ken Hinkley a job at all.

…and the moon is made of cheese, but I'm not sure what the price of tea is in china currently.

Read this to put it in context:

"This is the point of all the RL haters. Why would another club do that if he was only a reasonable or good coach. They refuse to use logic which makes it hard to have a serious discussion with. "



This statement suggests that he must be very good because another club poached him.

The Wallace and Hinkley examples prove that what clubs do does not prove that a coach is good, very good, great or shithouse.

Being poached does not make you good, however the context of Lyon's poaching proves that he is good.

He was coaching a side into grand finals, head-hunted by a middling club renowned for softness and viola… nek minnit they are playing grand finals - wow what a crazy coincidence.

[Bunk_Moreland]

No club gave Ken Hinkley a job at all.

…and the moon is made of cheese, but I'm not sure what the price of tea is in china currently.

Read this to put it in context:

"This is the point of all the RL haters. Why would another club do that if he was only a reasonable or good coach. They refuse to use logic which makes it hard to have a serious discussion with. "



This statement suggests that he must be very good because another club poached him.

The Wallace and Hinkley examples prove that what clubs do does not prove that a coach is good, very good, great or shithouse.

Being poached does not make you good, however the context of Lyon's poaching proves that he is good.

He was coaching a side into grand finals, head-hunted by a middling club renowned for softness and viola… nek minnit they are playing grand finals - wow what a crazy coincidence.

yes it is all just good luck for RL.

Happily for many though, the good luck is not a factor when looking at the GF losses 09 and 10 in particular.

No luck then, just bad bad bad coaching. All his fault, players a re blameless.

[Old Mate]

Lyon certainly has some solid footy principles to make for a competitive and well drilled team but I'm yet to see him adapt as a coach to the changing footy climate. He hasn't really needed to considering he's been getting teams to grand finals. Lets see how he goes over the next 2 years cos I'm expecting Freo to stuiggle to maintain a top 4 position with younger clubs improving and some ageing stars at Freo near the end.

I gotta say though, I love watching Ross's post game pressers. Is he arrogant? Yup. But its enthralling viewing. He constantly outsmarts the jouno's keeping them honest and has even taken up trolling the media.

[Johnny Member]

But that has nothing to do with 'he must be very good because someone poached him'.


Also, I think you're being a bit selective.

Freo aren't playing Grand Finals. They played in a Grand Final.

So you've spoken in plural, which is clearly incorrect.

You're also speaking in the present. They're not playing in Grand Finals.



They played in a Grand Final. What they're currently doing is going out in straight sets - including losing a home final to a team that didn't finish in the top 4.


I'd probably also argue that when they finished 6th and won a final by 5 goals they weren't considered too soft.

We also can't forget that mental fragility had them kicking themselves out the only GF they've played in, and they just capitulated and gave up a 5 goal lead in a home final.

So maybe they haven't improved in their hardness that much after all?