I'm torn...

[stjay]

All feels a little like trying to get wealthy ripping off the welfare system. Guess it is a sign of the times.

Plenty of crooks on welfare.....many of them with much more silverware in the cupboard than we have...
If you cant beat em.....beat em at their own game...

Think we are starting to get to the heart of the matter. Are these the types of values you teach your children?

[plugger66]

Who do you want to win when we play the WB Firey?

Do you stand in front of a mirror all day arguing to yourself? You just love it.

So im arguing that I want the Saints to win. Who would have thought. And because of that im the bad guy. We really do have some strange things happening on this thread especially. Firey hasn't even got the courage to come out and say he wants the WB to win so he talks rubbish. At least if I wanted the best possible pick id have the courage to say I want to lose the last 11 games.

I certainly don't think you are the bad guy plugger despite you saying that I talk rubbish and lack courage, it probably should upset me but I am starting to realise you can't help yourself.
So, I want what's best for the club

Your turn.

So you want to win every game possible?

I think the disagreements on what's "best" for the club right now...
It's clear you'd like 9th
Many feel that papers over cracks that will show when we lose ageing stars
I'm not into false dawns... (see Norf)
I went out with a Dawn once.... she wasn't false at all...

Can we use Carlton and Melbourne as examples. By the way North did finish 4th year. Are you suggesting they should have tried to finish lower because I don't get your point.

I dont see how Carlton/Melb are even relevant - that makes no sense at all.
Norf certainly are false dawn - do you think Norf are near a flag now????
You dont get many points.....

You seem happy to use names of sides you think haven't finished low enough to get good draft picks so I thought I may add a couple of sides that have had great draft picks and are still down the bottom. It isn't that hard. Just think about it. Do you think Melbourne and Carlton are near a flag now or are your silly examples the only ones that count. I really do hope we beat the WB next game. Cant think of the last side that finished near the bottom 3 years in a row going on to win a flag. Im sure its happened but im only 50 years of age.

I dont think Ive ever said draft picks alone guarantee a rise up the ladder or flags? - please produce the post where I state that?
But again you wont, you'll hide behind 'i dont understand...' blah blah and making up lies of what people havent said
You really 50?....must be lonely there...

You get very personal when you are struggling. Good MO. lets us know you are completely out of ideas. And when did I say you said that first comment. You seem to read a lot into basic comments that people say. Me thinks you are protesting to much so if the cap fits and I reckon yours fits very snuggly. Sorry but I cant post something II didn't say you said but I can laugh at your comment I don't understand.

Now lets talk about hiding behind a computer. I am going to ask you one simple question. And this question is a yes or no answer so it shouldn't test you that much. Do you want the Saints to beat the WB next game? Not that hard to answer but im sure you will ignore or talk in riddles. Were you in Batman? Sorry ignore that question because I don't think you are capable of answering 2 in the one post. Just stick with a very basic footy question.

[Teflon]

All feels a little like trying to get wealthy ripping off the welfare system. Guess it is a sign of the times.

Plenty of crooks on welfare.....many of them with much more silverware in the cupboard than we have...
If you cant beat em.....beat em at their own game...

Think we are starting to get to the heart of the matter. Are these the types of values you teach your children?

Unsure haven't seen them for a while cause visiting rights have been revoked
(Great broadband in here though!!)

[Teflon]

Who do you want to win when we play the WB Firey?

Do you stand in front of a mirror all day arguing to yourself? You just love it.

So im arguing that I want the Saints to win. Who would have thought. And because of that im the bad guy. We really do have some strange things happening on this thread especially. Firey hasn't even got the courage to come out and say he wants the WB to win so he talks rubbish. At least if I wanted the best possible pick id have the courage to say I want to lose the last 11 games.

I certainly don't think you are the bad guy plugger despite you saying that I talk rubbish and lack courage, it probably should upset me but I am starting to realise you can't help yourself.
So, I want what's best for the club

Your turn.

So you want to win every game possible?

I think the disagreements on what's "best" for the club right now...
It's clear you'd like 9th
Many feel that papers over cracks that will show when we lose ageing stars
I'm not into false dawns... (see Norf)
I went out with a Dawn once.... she wasn't false at all...

Can we use Carlton and Melbourne as examples. By the way North did finish 4th year. Are you suggesting they should have tried to finish lower because I don't get your point.

I dont see how Carlton/Melb are even relevant - that makes no sense at all.
Norf certainly are false dawn - do you think Norf are near a flag now????
You dont get many points.....

You seem happy to use names of sides you think haven't finished low enough to get good draft picks so I thought I may add a couple of sides that have had great draft picks and are still down the bottom. It isn't that hard. Just think about it. Do you think Melbourne and Carlton are near a flag now or are your silly examples the only ones that count. I really do hope we beat the WB next game. Cant think of the last side that finished near the bottom 3 years in a row going on to win a flag. Im sure its happened but im only 50 years of age.

I dont think Ive ever said draft picks alone guarantee a rise up the ladder or flags? - please produce the post where I state that?
But again you wont, you'll hide behind 'i dont understand...' blah blah and making up lies of what people havent said
You really 50?....must be lonely there...

You get very personal when you are struggling. Good MO. lets us know you are completely out of ideas. And when did I say you said that first comment. You seem to read a lot into basic comments that people say. Me thinks you are protesting to much so if the cap fits and I reckon yours fits very snuggly. Sorry but I cant post something II didn't say you said but I can laugh at your comment I don't understand.

Now lets talk about hiding behind a computer. I am going to ask you one simple question. And this question is a yes or no answer so it shouldn't test you that much. Do you want the Saints to beat the WB next game? Not that hard to answer but im sure you will ignore or talk in riddles. Were you in Batman? Sorry ignore that question because I don't think you are capable of answering 2 in the one post. Just stick with a very basic footy question.

I do think you're a Batman kind of guy - undies outside pants and all
I don't answer questions from deflectors who hide behind questions - show me the post where I said finishing last with high draft picks guaranteed success? You brought the Carlton/Melbourne examples into the discussion now please, for the sake of us all, at least try and link 1 of your examples to the topic?
Are you the Joker??

[Linton Lodger]

My heart says I want St Kilda to win today but my head says otherwise. If we win today we go to 12 points and may well end up winning 6 to 8 games for the year (which would be great mind you). However, with the future in mind, it may be better in the long run if we play really well today, have no injuries and lose by 9 points. I just listened to Callum Twomey and Nat Edwards on the "Road To The Draft" and I really want the Saints to have pick 3 or pick 2. Not pick 1 obviously because 27 wooden spoons is more than enough.

You should go and run the Melbourne FC. Perhaps you attended the Jim Stynes school of competent management.

[plugger66]

Who do you want to win when we play the WB Firey?

Do you stand in front of a mirror all day arguing to yourself? You just love it.

So im arguing that I want the Saints to win. Who would have thought. And because of that im the bad guy. We really do have some strange things happening on this thread especially. Firey hasn't even got the courage to come out and say he wants the WB to win so he talks rubbish. At least if I wanted the best possible pick id have the courage to say I want to lose the last 11 games.

I certainly don't think you are the bad guy plugger despite you saying that I talk rubbish and lack courage, it probably should upset me but I am starting to realise you can't help yourself.
So, I want what's best for the club

Your turn.

So you want to win every game possible?

I think the disagreements on what's "best" for the club right now...
It's clear you'd like 9th
Many feel that papers over cracks that will show when we lose ageing stars
I'm not into false dawns... (see Norf)
I went out with a Dawn once.... she wasn't false at all...

Can we use Carlton and Melbourne as examples. By the way North did finish 4th year. Are you suggesting they should have tried to finish lower because I don't get your point.

I dont see how Carlton/Melb are even relevant - that makes no sense at all.
Norf certainly are false dawn - do you think Norf are near a flag now????
You dont get many points.....

You seem happy to use names of sides you think haven't finished low enough to get good draft picks so I thought I may add a couple of sides that have had great draft picks and are still down the bottom. It isn't that hard. Just think about it. Do you think Melbourne and Carlton are near a flag now or are your silly examples the only ones that count. I really do hope we beat the WB next game. Cant think of the last side that finished near the bottom 3 years in a row going on to win a flag. Im sure its happened but im only 50 years of age.

I dont think Ive ever said draft picks alone guarantee a rise up the ladder or flags? - please produce the post where I state that?
But again you wont, you'll hide behind 'i dont understand...' blah blah and making up lies of what people havent said
You really 50?....must be lonely there...

You get very personal when you are struggling. Good MO. lets us know you are completely out of ideas. And when did I say you said that first comment. You seem to read a lot into basic comments that people say. Me thinks you are protesting to much so if the cap fits and I reckon yours fits very snuggly. Sorry but I cant post something II didn't say you said but I can laugh at your comment I don't understand.

Now lets talk about hiding behind a computer. I am going to ask you one simple question. And this question is a yes or no answer so it shouldn't test you that much. Do you want the Saints to beat the WB next game? Not that hard to answer but im sure you will ignore or talk in riddles. Were you in Batman? Sorry ignore that question because I don't think you are capable of answering 2 in the one post. Just stick with a very basic footy question.

I do think you're a Batman kind of guy - undies outside pants and all
I don't answer questions from deflectors who hide behind questions - show me the post where I said finishing last with high draft picks guaranteed success? You brought the Carlton/Melbourne examples into the discussion now please, for the sake of us all, at least try and link 1 of your examples to the topic?
Are you the Joker??

That is an amazing response to a simple question. Surely you have the courage to say yes or no. Afterall no one on here knows anything about you apart from the courage thing. Me deflect. I have been totally honest. I want to win as many game as possible and to finish as high as possible. I think that will mean a top 5 pick but if was top 9 I wouldn't give a stuff. How much more honest can I be. And when did I say you said last guarantees success. I just showed examples when it doesn't just like you did with Richmond and 9th or you only allowed to show those examples? I think Carlton and Melbourne are perfect examples of the topic and that is why you don't like it. Lets face it you don't even have the courage to say you want to lose our next game. All you say is the system rewards finishing lower. Well 2 and 2 equals 4 and to finish lower you need to lose games unless you have some other magical formula. Over to you cat woman.

[Teflon]

Im an amazing guy/gal so not surprised my response is amazing (I could be cat woman...)
I've already said I want to win every game including the flag!! (whose with me!!)
But that's unrealistic
How are Carltin/Melbourne even relevant to what happens at an entirely different club in St Kilda..... again, nonsensical airy fairy, poorly thought out examples that don't relate!!
So what we want and what we need right now IMO are poles apart
I've also stated winning isn't the most important thing in our sides development right now IMO
I don't feel I can be much more categoric than that
Responding to simplistic questions on when talking about long term planning is irrelevant
I hope you find this response amazing too!!

[plugger66]

Im an amazing guy/gal so not surprised my response is amazing (I could be cat woman...)
I've already said I want to win every game including the flag!! (whose with me!!)
But that's unrealistic
How are Carltin/Melbourne even relevant to what happens at an entirely different club in St Kilda..... again, nonsensical airy fairy, poorly thought out examples that don't relate!!
So what we want and what we need right now IMO are poles apart
I've also stated winning isn't the most important thing in our sides development right now IMO
I don't feel I can be much more categoric than that
Responding to simplistic questions on when talking about long term planning is irrelevant
I hope you find this response amazing too!!

But Richmond are some how relevant. That is your problem. When you mention sides its relevant but when others mention them it isn't. Talk about complete rubbish. Again you have just displayed no courage. Talking in riddles because you don't want to say we will hopefully lose games.

[satchmo]

As far as I'm concerned neither side has won this debate. So if the Saints don't draw with the dogs I'll be cutting up my membership.

[Sainternist]

31 pages of drivel, and still going.

Citywest must be loving this sort of attention.

[Austinnn]

Far out, the evasiveness of you tankers is pretty incredible.

Firey, Plugger asked you a totally reasonable question which you repeatedly answered cryptically, so let's just put it on the line, OK? When you say you prefer what's best for the club, does that mean you prefer us to win the next game against the western bulldogs, or does it mean that you would prefer us to lose said game?

Same applies for the remaining games of the season. I don't think that's an unreasonable question. If you can't answer, it can only be because you don't want us to know the answer, or because you are torn like OP, but you don't seem torn.

As for Teflon, you just stated you want to win every game, as do most football fans, but being that we probably won't and being that finals is doubtful for us this season, do you want us to beat the Western Bulldogs in our next game or do you want the Western Bulldogs to beat us? Same goes for the remaining games. In other words: Considering that we probably won't make the finals series this year, how many more games would you prefer we lose and who are the opponents you would prefer us to lose to? Again, no reason for you not to answer that question except evasiveness.

Your jokes aren't funny but what is funny is the lengths you will go to to avoid the truth. You're happy to use Tigers and North as templates for the foolishness of trying to win (whilst totally ignoring my Sydney and Geelong examples), but you can't handle Carlton and Melbourne being used as examples of what you are proposing: would you like to plainly state why that is?

Since you're casting aspersions on other posters by discussing their ages and social activity, and so on, perhaps you'd like to be reminded that you are hogging this thread with biblican passages from The Book Of Tanking, and taking time to type out well thought-out cynical responses to every single challenge you get on this thread, so you must also have a lot of free time on your hands. Not that its any of our business. But if you want to go down that path perhaps we can joke about you being lonely etc. as well. Likewise if you are implying that Plugger has a low mental age judging from his posts, then perhaps you'll be OK with us guessing your age. I'll go with that early 20s period where a lot of people have had a full complement of establishment education and believe themselves to be Nostradamus and Einstein's love child, except for that sad line in self depreciation that speaks of a few setbacks in life: who knows? Its not important is it? Its got a bit personal, would you mind laying off that, as well as terms like "vile" and so on, everybody?

The ad hominem attacks don't really do much for your position, neither do the accusations from all tankers of this place squashing unpopular opinions - I think its fine to debate them though, that's all we're doing here, isn't it? Can't help it if we don't like it. You won't find many people who will, except the wannabe list managers at Big Footy.

[plugger66]

Far out, the evasiveness of you tankers is pretty incredible.

Firey, Plugger asked you a totally reasonable question which you repeatedly answered cryptically, so let's just put it on the line, OK? When you say you prefer what's best for the club, does that mean you prefer us to win the next game against the western bulldogs, or does it mean that you would prefer us to lose said game?

Same applies for the remaining games of the season. I don't think that's an unreasonable question. If you can't answer, it can only be because you don't want us to know the answer, or because you are torn like OP, but you don't seem torn.

As for Teflon, you just stated you want to win every game, as do most football fans, but being that we probably won't and being that finals is doubtful for us this season, do you want us to beat the Western Bulldogs in our next game or do you want the Western Bulldogs to beat us? Same goes for the remaining games. In other words: Considering that we probably won't make the finals series this year, how many more games would you prefer we lose and who are the opponents you would prefer us to lose to? Again, no reason for you not to answer that question except evasiveness.

Your jokes aren't funny but what is funny is the lengths you will go to to avoid the truth. You're happy to use Tigers and North as templates for the foolishness of trying to win (whilst totally ignoring my Sydney and Geelong examples), but you can't handle Carlton and Melbourne being used as examples of what you are proposing: would you like to plainly state why that is?

Since you're casting aspersions on other posters by discussing their ages and social activity, and so on, perhaps you'd like to be reminded that you are hogging this thread with biblican passages from The Book Of Tanking, and taking time to type out well thought-out cynical responses to every single challenge you get on this thread, so you must also have a lot of free time on your hands. Not that its any of our business. But if you want to go down that path perhaps we can joke about you being lonely etc. as well. Likewise if you are implying that Plugger has a low mental age judging from his posts, then perhaps you'll be OK with us guessing your age. I'll go with that early 20s period where a lot of people have had a full complement of establishment education and believe themselves to be Nostradamus and Einstein's love child, except for that sad line in self depreciation that speaks of a few setbacks in life: who knows? Its not important is it? Its got a bit personal, would you mind laying off that, as well as terms like "vile" and so on, everybody?

The ad hominem attacks don't really do much for your position, neither do the accusations from all tankers of this place squashing unpopular opinions - I think its fine to debate them though, that's all we're doing here, isn't it? Can't help it if we don't like it. You won't find many people who will, except the wannabe list managers at Big Footy.

The thing is the answer of whats best for the club doesn't even give you are certain answer anyway. The people drafting may rather finish lower down the ladder to get better picks but I don't think the coaching panel would or the people selling memberships and sponsorships. Also a young star player may not mind losing games to get better players in future years but guys like Joey and Rooy want to win every possible game as they have limited time in the game. The easiest way to answer a simple question like do you want to beat the WB is a simple yes or no answer. I reckon a 5 year old could answer that question.

[LTN16]

Where was Jay Kennedy-Harris on the weekend for dee's chitywest?

Someone with the class and skill like him you would think would be getting a game for them?

[jamesmc]

Teflon, fireman, citywest must like " dancing " with their sisters.

[Austinnn]

what we want and what we need right now IMO are poles apart
I've also stated winning isn't the most important thing in our sides development right now IMO
I don't feel I can be much more categoric than that

Indeed. There is the element of your argument that we should deal with. I might even partially agree. I think its fair enough to state that if Tim Watson's team had been a little better then Nick Reiwoldt would probably mean as much to us as Chris Judd. And you are right that the development of our team is most important now. Winning is not the most important thing, fair enough.

However, winning still is bloody important to development, that's not airy fairy, anyone who's followed a sporting team in a league long term can see that it's true. And more importantly, losing repeatedly also has an effect that is difficult to shake off.

I believe that rather than occupy our minds with this destructive talk of losing, we should desire to win and deal with the long term consolation of being a terrible team after the H&A season.

I also believe that the desire to win must run through every fabric of a club from fans to trainers to coaches to players. We all feed off each other, and if the desire isn't there, this sport is too competitive to succeed. Then losing becomes a loop again. We as supporters should demand a winning culture, the players must feel the pressure to deliver wins in proper matches. As distinct from intra club and pre season matches.

You can call it old fashioned or airy fairy if you like, but outside the offices if list managers around the country, this is the raison d'etre of sports. I don't want to sit in a stadium full of fans who are kind of ambivalent about our team winning that game because they might lose access to a kid that may or may not be one of many guns that may or may not secure our club's medium term future and may or may not induce a snowball effect of success that may or may not push into the long term.

Lets continue this inspiring season of hope. If we go back to pure s***, ill console myself like that THEN.

[Austinnn]

Also a young star player may not mind losing games to get better players in future years but guys like Joey and Rooy want to win every possible game as they have limited time in the game.

I can't remember which player said it, but when the concept of tanking was put to him said something similar to:

"So I'm supposed to go out there and try to lose the game so our club can get a player that might replace me?"

Of course what were talking about is more a coach selecting and coaching to lose, which is what happened at Melbourne a few years ago, allegedly.

[asiu]

bloody hell Teffers ,
how to upset the family 101.

***
personally i think the doggies will tear us a new one .
... i certainly don't desire that result , but
a) it wont break my heart
b) it won't (imo) hurt the juggernaut in any way
c) it could even help

****

Catwoman ay

dunno what to say at this point ,
always thought the J & the CW were on the same side.
... though i always thought Alfred was the brain
behind the glamour twins of good ... fwtw

***
the only important 'thing' here , is winning the Thing ,
as far as i can tell.
... and surviving.
... and trading 'smartly' , continually ... through good times 'n the not so good

***
personally ,
i always thought the Road Runner was a smarmy farcar
but he was good
'n , lol , he got the job done.

[asiu]

Teflon, fireman, citywest must like " dancing " with their sisters.

i'd dance with my sister
... 'n so would any of you fairies , if u laid eyes on It.

[kosifantutti]

Where was Jay Kennedy-Harris on the weekend for dee's chitywest?

Someone with the class and skill like him you would think would be getting a game for them?

That wasn't CityWest that wrote about Kennedy-Harris. It was sainter85.

[asiu]

eat our own.
Way to Go.

... thats helpful.tick.

[plugger66]

Also a young star player may not mind losing games to get better players in future years but guys like Joey and Rooy want to win every possible game as they have limited time in the game.

I can't remember which player said it, but when the concept of tanking was put to him said something similar to:

"So I'm supposed to go out there and try to lose the game so our club can get a player that might replace me?"

Of course what were talking about is more a coach selecting and coaching to lose, which is what happened at Melbourne a few years ago, allegedly.

No player will ever tank but after a loss a younger player may not feel as bad as our older stars who have given everything for the club and that's more reason no club official should ever contemplate the thought of tanking and that is why before every game we should hope and want our side to win. If they don't then we can think of the slight benefits then. I really hope we have another win next game. It was a great feeling last Sunday night.

[Austinnn]

personally i think the doggies will tear us a new one .
... i certainly don't desire that result , but
a) it wont break my heart
b) it won't (imo) hurt the juggernaut in any way
c) it could even help

Hey WS, about point B), i think you might be right. What effect do you think winning that game would have on the juggernaut? Little to none? Just asking, no offenk.

[Austinnn]

Hmm plugger, you've got me thinking now...

4th quarter scores vs Melb:

Armo: point
Bruce: point
Dunstan: point
Minch: point
Steven: kicks grubby kick that seems destined to be point until
Montagna comes from nowhere and converts.

Young players trying their hardest not to win that game, sadly Joey is from a different generation and won't be there in 2020, so selfishly he goes for the empty feeling of a futile win, much to the disappointment of those young players who see the evaporation of their chances of playing with whichever boy is considered a little better than the other boys in November. (Wasn't Hugh Goddard considered to be top 5 if not no 1 thus time last year?)

My god, its worse than I thought. We are doing a Melbourne! Call us the Saint Kilda Shermans!

I joke, I joke.

[asiu]

it'd be HUGE

possible downside though ... re living our past
'n having lived through that already it gets boring
... they made goddam movies about us for winning 10 on the trot ... i dont necessarily wanna relive that nonsense.
... i wanna win the Thing.

Our Foundation at this moment ON space , demands Patience.
Our future , in my silly opinion only of course , depends on our patience , now.

I'm a patient man.
... carpenter.

a plus b plus c plus d etc etc equals what u set out to build.
Short cuts are for the weekend Warrior.

[saintsRrising]

the Saint Kilda Shermans!
.

Off Topic St Kilda not Saint Kilda please...