Gresham

[Bunk_Moreland]

So this has gone completly off reservation.

Thought it was about Gresham.

Like the good old days when every single thread went OT due to P66.

He cant do that over at BF, and I think this is the reason some posters only post here.

To keep it OT, I reckon Pelchan made plenty of mistakes, all recruiters do. Some in the football industry call him a myth and that he is overhyped.

Just remember that if Pelchan was still about when we were after Carlisle, he is on record saying he would straight swap #5 for Carlisle.

We may have had donuts in 2016 for #5 and actually no need for this thread as Gresham would not have been selected by us.

Wouldn't that have sent this place and BF into meltdown.

Pelchan was no messiah, but he did make some good decisions.

[saintsRrising]

IMO those unhappy with Lyon's performance in those years grossly over-rated our list. He took a list with no right to be in a GF to almost winning two flags.

RL started with Hayes, Harvey, Ball, Dal, Gehrig, Montagna, Milne, Hudghton, Fisher, Maguire, Clarke x 2, Gram, Goddard, Baker, Blake, Fiora, and Koschitzke...

That was in 2007. Now granted by 2009 Gehrig, and Harvey are gone... Fiora was cut whilst Maguire and the Clarke's aren't in the top 22... That's still 12 players of a starting 18 disregarding other players on the list that were further back.

Yep, he was a real miracle worker to be able to do anything with that pack of duds

I never said that he inherited a "pack of duds" as there was certainly some good and elite talent there. But list was shallow and not of GF standard. We had some great stars, but lacked middle tier and bottom tier players.
They were 6th and IMO, on the slide, when he took them over. Lots of offield turmoil and Wasteaway coming in as President would not have helped as Premiership Teams normally had rock-solid Admins whereas we were an absolute basket case offield.

Add to that (and while all teams have injuries) from your list of "best players":
* He never had a fully fit Ball
* Maguire was never the same after his horrific leg injuries. (Very annoyed that Lyon did not gift him his 100th game as he deserved it)
* Kosi was never the same after his head injury (though Lyon found a way to make him useful)
* Max was great, but again Lyon got him when he was just about done and dusted. Ditto for GTrain.
* Clarke x 2 : Xman had had it by then! But yes Lyon got some good football out of rap including some very good finals.

Whereas due to our crap recuiting which was crap for several years before Lyon arrived, and stayed crap till after he left, there was not much cream coming through to replace what had been assembled in the early naughties (best of our 97 players, early picks plus priority picks, Blues cheating gaining us BJ and an usually good period of getting genuine quality players from other clubs in Hamill, Penny, GTain and others). Most kids we picked up where poor. The experienced Schneider and Dempster being the exceptions and not the rule unfortunately.

IMO, and I am happy to be on the outer with, Lyon outperformed by getting the list he had into two seasons of GFs. The game plan and outstanding workrate instilled by him worked very well at the time. Like many gameplans it was worked over and found out eventually and Lyon does not seemed to have moved on tactically, but in those years I still think he over-achieved with what he had available.

[BigMart]

In 2009

Riewoldt
All Australian Captain and ATL all time great
Goddard
at his best
Dal Santo
Dual AA
Hayes
Prime midfielder in the AFL triple AA
Montagna
4 times RU B&F
Jones
Best tagger in the AFL 09/10
Sam Fisher
Elite Defender AA and B&F
Milne
Dual AA best small fwd in the AFL
Very good players included
Gram, Gardiner, Gilbert, Schnieder, Dempster, Ball

We wil be lucky to ever assemble a group like that ever again

[skeptic]

IMO those unhappy with Lyon's performance in those years grossly over-rated our list. He took a list with no right to be in a GF to almost winning two flags.

RL started with Hayes, Harvey, Ball, Dal, Gehrig, Montagna, Milne, Hudghton, Fisher, Maguire, Clarke x 2, Gram, Goddard, Baker, Blake, Fiora, and Koschitzke...

That was in 2007. Now granted by 2009 Gehrig, and Harvey are gone... Fiora was cut whilst Maguire and the Clarke's aren't in the top 22... That's still 12 players of a starting 18 disregarding other players on the list that were further back.

Yep, he was a real miracle worker to be able to do anything with that pack of duds

I never said that he inherited a "pack of duds" as there was certainly some good and elite talent there. But list was shallow and not of GF standard. We had some great stars, but lacked middle tier and bottom tier players.
They were 6th and IMO, on the slide, when he took them over. Lots of offield turmoil and Wasteaway coming in as President would not have helped as Premiership Teams normally had rock-solid Admins whereas we were an absolute basket case offield.

Add to that (and while all teams have injuries) from your list of "best players":
* He never had a fully fit Ball
* Maguire was never the same after his horrific leg injuries. (Very annoyed that Lyon did not gift him his 100th game as he deserved it)
* Kosi was never the same after his head injury (though Lyon found a way to make him useful)
* Max was great, but again Lyon got him when he was just about done and dusted. Ditto for GTrain.
* Clarke x 2 : Xman had had it by then! But yes Lyon got some good football out of rap including some very good finals.

Whereas due to our crap recuiting which was crap for several years before Lyon arrived, and stayed crap till after he left, there was not much cream coming through to replace what had been assembled in the early naughties (best of our 97 players, early picks plus priority picks, Blues cheating gaining us BJ and an usually good period of getting genuine quality players from other clubs in Hamill, Penny, GTain and others). Most kids we picked up where poor. The experienced Schneider and Dempster being the exceptions and not the rule unfortunately.

IMO, and I am happy to be on the outer with, Lyon outperformed by getting the list he had into two seasons of GFs. The game plan and outstanding workrate instilled by him worked very well at the time. Like many gameplans it was worked over and found out eventually and Lyon does not seemed to have moved on tactically, but in those years I still think he over-achieved with what he had available.

If you're argument is that RL took a list that had 13 or so players that had played in a pre-lim final and were genuine premierships just 2 years ago...
Coached it well, added players, moved some on... Stopped a declined and relaunched it into a genuine premiership attack then I agree with you. The problem I have with what you're saying comes with the term "over-achieved".

You're implying that this was a team of average players that RL turned into an amazing force with some type of magical coaching display... But as BM has pointed out, it was a team with REALLY REALLY good players.

In addition to the nucleus... He added Gardiner and King, Dawson (who is still on an AFL list), Dempster who developed after the tilt, Schnieder (accomplished already and had a decent career) to name a few... They're hardly average players.

I guess we're not going to agree on this but I think you're POV is verging on delusional.

This is not a Mighty Ducks story

[Playon]

This is going to be a long season.
I have my concerns.

Well then you're going to be thrilled when we really get going

[sunsaint]

<snip>
You're implying that this was a team of average players that RL turned into an amazing force with some type of magical coaching display... But as BM has pointed out, it was a team with REALLY REALLY good players.

In addition to the nucleus... He added Gardiner and King, Dawson (who is still on an AFL list), Dempster who developed after the tilt, Schnieder (accomplished already and had a decent career) to name a few... They're hardly average players.

I guess we're not going to agree on this but I think you're POV is verging on delusional.

This is not a Mighty Ducks story

tend to agree with this view point as well...
there are many on here that believe that Thomas should have won a GF with the list - so it cant be true both ways
RL brought in ready made mature players at the detriment of development - The Pro RL's argue that he was topping up and rightly justified - so it cant be true both ways.

The only way I could swing round to Saintsrising point of view is if you believe that RL could make an average player look good with his game plan.

I will be happy to be corrected on fact - but it is my memory belief that one of the factors behind RL leaving was that his "totalitarian authority" was threatened with introduction of Pelchin and the board limiting his powers
I will always remember his photo with Cousins in a Saints jumper, but in the end Lovett was the final straw. (and money of course)

[saintsRrising]

If you're argument is that RL took a list that had 13 or so players that had played in a pre-lim final and were genuine premierships just 2 years ago...
Coached it well, added players, moved some on... Stopped a declined and relaunched it into a genuine premiership attack then I agree with you.

Now if you had of stopped there we would be in violent agreement (except that you left out the part that quite a few players had run their race).

The problem I have with what you're saying comes with the term "over-achieved".

Here we diverge again.

My belief that Lyon developed a team ethic and gameplan that overcame our flaws.

Could another coach have done it? Possibly, But I doubt it. Now this does make Lyon the best coach ever, but that he had exactly what we needed when we needed it and ata time when other coaches did not know how to combat it (they later did).

Sometimes a moment in time presents when just one person is the perfect fit. Lyon was the right fit at that time. Not saying he was perfect. Just that he knew how to make the most out of our list at that time.

You're implying that this was a team of average players that RL turned into an amazing force with some type of magical coaching display... But as BM has pointed out, it was a team with REALLY REALLY good players.

And where and when did I ever state that we did not have some REALLY REALLY good players? Indeed I have always stated that we did. We had some absolute cream. But we lacked depth. This meant we also had some REALLY REALLY ordinary players in our best 22. But by adherence to new gameplan with absolute committment we became a REALLY REALLY good team.

In addition to the nucleus... He added Gardiner and King, Dawson (who is still on an AFL list), Dempster who developed after the tilt, Schnieder (accomplished already and had a decent career) to name a few... They're hardly average players.

Sorry but apart from Schnieder at they time they were taken thet were all players on the outer, deemed past it and in Zac case he had been dumped after not arriving. But Lyon made the most of them. Which is my point. Gardi still had class, but could not get on the park. But Lyon knew he could make a difference if he could be fit and on the park. Unfortunately Gardi dominated in the "Best Game Ever" against the Cats rather than in the Grand Final. Imagine if that game it had of been in the GF.....

I guess we're not going to agree on this but I think you're POV is verging on delusional.

No not at all you just keep exagerating my POV as in you next comment.

This is not a Mighty Ducks story

And were did I imply that it was? If Lyon took us on this season and one a flag, then that would be a Mighty Ducks story.

You do understand that the GF contains the top two teams? That saying that a team would finish outside of that still leaves 16 other places. The list that Lyon gained was not going to finish bottom, but under another coach I would tend to think would have been anywhere from 4th-10th. Where will never know.

My view remains that Lyon's list was not as good as the list that GT had. That team knocked on the door of playing in a GF but that did not get there.

IMO Lyon with a worse list git us into the GF in two years. The first year we dominated the competion in a way that I doubt that I will ever see again. GT did it with the streak, but Lyon did it for a whole season.

That is whay I said that Lyon got us into GF's with a list that had no right to be there, as I do not believe that any other coach would have gotten that list to play as well as it did.

[Dis Believer]

Here we diverge again.

My belief that Lyon developed a team ethic and gameplan that overcame our flaws.

Right, so players the ilk of Riewoldt, Dal Santo, Ball, Goddard, Harvey,m Hayes etc, etc only ever developed a team ethic after the arrival of R Lyon !!?? Stay off the uncle Dougs, they'll mess you up......

R Lyon bought one thing only to the table - a game plan/style of play that was an "next step" evolution of what other were doing, that filled the gaps around our stars and made us nearly unbeatable - until, as is inevitable, the rest of the competition caught up.

Lyon's major failing then kicked in - he doesn't know how to keep evolving (the lack of a "plan B" thing).

[degruch]

How about that kid Gresham, eh what?

[dragit]

How about that kid Gresham, eh what?

we REALLY need the football to start hey?

[Bluthy]

How about that kid Gresham, eh what?

He looks great in all aspects except one - his size. Is that going to be an issue long term? Mids are getting bigger and bigger. In five years time they could be huge. Gresham may end up needing to play forward a lot almost in that Rioli half-forward role.

[White Winmar]

How about that kid Gresham, eh what?

He looks great in all aspects except one - his size. Is that going to be an issue long term? Mids are getting bigger and bigger. In five years time they could be huge. Gresham may end up needing to play forward a lot almost in that Rioli half-forward role.

Everything old will become new again. I remember in Brent Harvey's draft year, he was overlooked because of his size. What a bargain the Kangas got out of that one! Clubs had 46 chances to draft Boomer and all passed up on the opportunity. Even then, the doomsayers said he'd never make it. I've followed Jade with some interest over the past 12 months. He's a gun, pure and simple. He got to pick 14 because of question marks over his size. We've got a steal right there. The talk was we may have even taken him at 5.

Midfielders have been getting taller, stronger and faster over the past two decades. Don't be fooled by the "slim" down effect. Power is a combination of speed and endurance, and the modern AFL footballer is the personification of that. Bottom line? The kid is short, but he's quick and strong, with a good tank. A power athlete. He's also a natural footballer who reads the game well and knows where to go to find the ball, something that can't really be taught. Dunstan mark II. I predict he'll play a fair bit of senior footy this year and he will make an impact.

[magnifisaint]

In 2009

Riewoldt
All Australian Captain and ATL all time great
Goddard
at his best
Dal Santo
Dual AA
Hayes
Prime midfielder in the AFL triple AA
Montagna
4 times RU B&F
Jones
Best tagger in the AFL 09/10
Sam Fisher
Elite Defender AA and B&F
Milne
Dual AA best small fwd in the AFL
Very good players included
Gram, Gardiner, Gilbert, Schnieder, Dempster, Ball

We wil be lucky to ever assemble a group like that ever again

That is very negative. You're expecting St Kilda to fail.

[saintsRrising]

Here we diverge again.

My belief that Lyon developed a team ethic and gameplan that overcame our flaws.

Right, so players the ilk of Riewoldt, Dal Santo, Ball, Goddard, Harvey,m Hayes etc, etc only ever developed a team ethic after the arrival of R Lyon !!??

I saida team ethic that "overcame our flaws" rather than not having any team ethic. Lyon got "buy in" the whole team working hard, rather than just the stars to a level we had not had before (baring in mind the professionalism of football in the naughties. so no slight on the 66 team as things were alot less professional then and gameplans very simplistic).

I have never seen a St Kilda Team work as hard as the 2009 team. Indeed I never seen any team work as hard as that team.

Stay off the uncle Dougs, they'll mess you up......

R Lyon bought one thing only to the table - a game plan/style of play that was an "next step" evolution of what other were doing, that filled the gaps around our stars and made us nearly unbeatable

I agree there except it being the one thing. He also brought absolute committment and a huge workrate that was required to make that gameplan work.

- until, as is inevitable, the rest of the competition caught up.

Yes agree and that is what I have repeatedly stated.

Lyon's major failing then kicked in - he doesn't know how to keep evolving (the lack of a "plan B" thing).

Yes agree and that is what I have repeatedly stated.


Lyon was the right man at the right time.

[desertsaint]

In 2009

Riewoldt
All Australian Captain and ATL all time great
Goddard
at his best
Dal Santo
Dual AA
Hayes
Prime midfielder in the AFL triple AA
Montagna
4 times RU B&F
Jones
Best tagger in the AFL 09/10
Sam Fisher
Elite Defender AA and B&F
Milne
Dual AA best small fwd in the AFL
Very good players included
Gram, Gardiner, Gilbert, Schnieder, Dempster, Ball

We wil be lucky to ever assemble a group like that ever again

That is very negative. You're expecting St Kilda to fail.

11 all australians in that team, albeit peaking at different times - not a leap to suggest we'll never see it's like again.
we should have won a flag or two, and i'm sure if our coaches had more experience we would've.

[Bluthy]

How about that kid Gresham, eh what?

He looks great in all aspects except one - his size. Is that going to be an issue long term? Mids are getting bigger and bigger. In five years time they could be huge. Gresham may end up needing to play forward a lot almost in that Rioli half-forward role.

Everything old will become new again. I remember in Brent Harvey's draft year, he was overlooked because of his size. What a bargain the Kangas got out of that one! Clubs had 46 chances to draft Boomer and all passed up on the opportunity. Even then, the doomsayers said he'd never make it. I've followed Jade with some interest over the past 12 months. He's a gun, pure and simple. He got to pick 14 because of question marks over his size. We've got a steal right there. The talk was we may have even taken him at 5.

Midfielders have been getting taller, stronger and faster over the past two decades. Don't be fooled by the "slim" down effect. Power is a combination of speed and endurance, and the modern AFL footballer is the personification of that. Bottom line? The kid is short, but he's quick and strong, with a good tank. A power athlete. He's also a natural footballer who reads the game well and knows where to go to find the ball, something that can't really be taught. Dunstan mark II. I predict he'll play a fair bit of senior footy this year and he will make an impact.

Richardson on Jade Gresham – Pick No. 18

“‘Gresh’ has had a strong pre-season; he’s quite a powerful player already. Whilst he’s not a tall guy he’s a strong build, he’s got really powerful legs. Whilst he hasn’t played a lot of footy yet, I thought he’s shown he’s got the ability to be able to cope with the intensity and the physicality of the game at AFL level. We’ve been excited by what he’s shown. It hasn’t been a lot but what we’ve seen has been impressive – his ball use, his want to get after the opposition and harass them, his agility, clean hands under pressure.”

I'm not a believer of the "we would have took him at 5" rumour but I can see them rating him highly and thinking a Carlisle-Gresham duo was much better than two picks straight in the draft. High praise but he does seem in the Joey model - extremely versatile that gets around his size. Able to win his own footy so can play onball but could play wing, as a small forward or even loose halfback to give some run and precision passing from the back - he can kick it pretty long too. When he comes in I could see him starting on the wing. With Billings on one wing, Gresham on the other, then we've got a couple of guys who can lower their eyes and hit targets in the forward half - something we've struggled with. A tantalising prospect.

It's interesting how we don't seem to have been scared to take these skillful smaller players - Gresh, Lonie, Sinclair, NOK, whereas other clubs seem to have passed over them because of their size. If you keep possession of the footy, then size matters less. It's why hawks seem to have lots of smaller players too. Bodes well.

[saintsRrising]

It's interesting how we don't seem to have been scared to take these skillful smaller players - Gresh, Lonie, Sinclair, NOK, whereas other clubs seem to have passed over them because of their size. If you keep possession of the footy, then size matters less. It's why hawks seem to have lots of smaller players too. Bodes well.

It makes a welcome change, and particularly the "skilfull" part. For years the club made noise about getting more skilful players but it never really happened. Now at last we do seem to be accumulating them. Badly need some elite mids with elite ball skills though. However Gresh can be one such.

Apart from Buckets (and yes fully understand he was not small!), I cannot think of another St Kilda player that really improved his disposals skills after joining the club. And that was more from awful to satisafactory. Though Rooey has mastered the banana kick on goal in recent years

[saintbrat]

Playing this week

http://www.saints.com.au/video/2016-03- ... m-to-debut

[Playon]

Thanks Bratty, now if only he'd of said who the rest of the team was

[shrodes]

Playing this week

http://www.saints.com.au/video/2016-03- ... m-to-debut

That was all a bit awkward, but well done to the young fella!

[dragit]

Bluthy going to do a lid.

[BackFromUSA]

How about that kid Gresham, eh what?

He looks great in all aspects except one - his size. Is that going to be an issue long term? Mids are getting bigger and bigger. In five years time they could be huge. Gresham may end up needing to play forward a lot almost in that Rioli half-forward role.

Everything old will become new again. I remember in Brent Harvey's draft year, he was overlooked because of his size. What a bargain the Kangas got out of that one! Clubs had 46 chances to draft Boomer and all passed up on the opportunity. Even then, the doomsayers said he'd never make it. I've followed Jade with some interest over the past 12 months. He's a gun, pure and simple. He got to pick 14 because of question marks over his size. We've got a steal right there. The talk was we may have even taken him at 5.

Midfielders have been getting taller, stronger and faster over the past two decades. Don't be fooled by the "slim" down effect. Power is a combination of speed and endurance, and the modern AFL footballer is the personification of that. Bottom line? The kid is short, but he's quick and strong, with a good tank. A power athlete. He's also a natural footballer who reads the game well and knows where to go to find the ball, something that can't really be taught. Dunstan mark II. I predict he'll play a fair bit of senior footy this year and he will make an impact.

100% agree.

[Bluthy]

Bluthy going to do a lid.

And I spent all week marching up and down outside Linen House chanting "WHAT DO WE WANT...NO GRESH...WHEN DO WE WANT IT...JUST FOR THIS WEEK NEXT WEEK HE SHOULD BE FINE TO PLAY SENIORS" Admittedly it wasn't the catchiest chant. Have to cop this one on the chin - I was wrong Still worried about how he runs the game out but they obviously back the kid. Will be exciting to see how he goes.

[dragit]

Haha if he pings a hammy you'll be able to work up a mad strut.

Let's hope he stars on debut... Good luck young man.

[SemperFidelis]

Very gracious of you Bluthy! If he does get a run we will all be backing him 100%. Go Sainters!