Lots of positives today

[SydneySainter]

There is a simple solution to this tread.
If you are all doom and gloom don't read it!
Some people here are optimistic and want to find something out of this season and some people aren't.
If you fall in the latter why do you feel the need to belittle people who don't share your view.
Surely it's not hard.
Personally I'm going through a lot in life at the moment and whilst I love this club, I can't let this years performance affect me as much as others.
Therefore I need to look for positives and yes there were quite a few this week.
I don't have my head in the sand and also am aware of our shortfalls.
Myself, and a few others would prefer to look for some positives for now.

Of course, there we're some positive aspects to our performance last Saturday, but there has been so much focus on the positives from brave losses over the last 7 seasons, that at what point do we move on from commending honourable losses and expect to start winning?

I take your point about wanting to extract something other than doom and gloom from a disappointing season, but this is a season where the club admin declared that all KPI's are being met and that we're on the track to greatness - steady ladder position of the last two seasons, learned to win interstate, the coach has been resigned, the majority of the younger players are reaching 50 games, other players like Ross, Sinclair and Billings have gone to the next level, move to Moorabbin making us a "destination" club, lots of cap space to lure a superstar player, etc.

This was never supposed to be another development year. Even after a few bad losses, the sentiment was that it was just a bump in the road, it can be fixed, the ship will steady and finals "here we come."

Now we've conceded this as another development year and we're starting to applaud the same positives that we looked for in the Watters' era. It's a real sense of deja vu and I can't help but feel that it's a little foolhardy to see these positives as signs that once we're past this season, we will be better again. Especially if Richo is still our coach and Trout is still heading recruitment. It terrifies me to see another top 3 pick in his hands.

Out of curiosity, on balance, what should Trout have done differently do you think? perhaps leaving out the bust year of 2012

Do what he’s paid to do, which is recruit the best available talent.

[Crossy66]

There is a simple solution to this tread.
If you are all doom and gloom don't read it!
Some people here are optimistic and want to find something out of this season and some people aren't.
If you fall in the latter why do you feel the need to belittle people who don't share your view.
Surely it's not hard.
Personally I'm going through a lot in life at the moment and whilst I love this club, I can't let this years performance affect me as much as others.
Therefore I need to look for positives and yes there were quite a few this week.
I don't have my head in the sand and also am aware of our shortfalls.
Myself, and a few others would prefer to look for some positives for now.

Of course, there we're some positive aspects to our performance last Saturday, but there has been so much focus on the positives from brave losses over the last 7 seasons, that at what point do we move on from commending honourable losses and expect to start winning?

I take your point about wanting to extract something other than doom and gloom from a disappointing season, but this is a season where the club admin declared that all KPI's are being met and that we're on the track to greatness - steady ladder position of the last two seasons, learned to win interstate, the coach has been resigned, the majority of the younger players are reaching 50 games, other players like Ross, Sinclair and Billings have gone to the next level, move to Moorabbin making us a "destination" club, lots of cap space to lure a superstar player, etc.

This was never supposed to be another development year. Even after a few bad losses, the sentiment was that it was just a bump in the road, it can be fixed, the ship will steady and finals "here we come."

Now we've conceded this as another development year and we're starting to applaud the same positives that we looked for in the Watters' era. It's a real sense of deja vu and I can't help but feel that it's a little foolhardy to see these positives as signs that once we're past this season, we will be better again. Especially if Richo is still our coach and Trout is still heading recruitment. It terrifies me to see another top 3 pick in his hands.

Out of curiosity, on balance, what should Trout have done differently do you think? perhaps leaving out the bust year of 2012

Do what he’s paid to do, which is recruit the best available talent.

mmmm... a bit general. 17 other clubs try to do the same thing and there are a few restrictions such as draft order salary cap etc etc. Its also not an exact science. Its a bit like saying Richo should do what he is paid to do - win a premiership evey year!
Would be interesting to hear what specifically he should have done.

[SydneySainter]

There is a simple solution to this tread.
If you are all doom and gloom don't read it!
Some people here are optimistic and want to find something out of this season and some people aren't.
If you fall in the latter why do you feel the need to belittle people who don't share your view.
Surely it's not hard.
Personally I'm going through a lot in life at the moment and whilst I love this club, I can't let this years performance affect me as much as others.
Therefore I need to look for positives and yes there were quite a few this week.
I don't have my head in the sand and also am aware of our shortfalls.
Myself, and a few others would prefer to look for some positives for now.

Of course, there we're some positive aspects to our performance last Saturday, but there has been so much focus on the positives from brave losses over the last 7 seasons, that at what point do we move on from commending honourable losses and expect to start winning?

I take your point about wanting to extract something other than doom and gloom from a disappointing season, but this is a season where the club admin declared that all KPI's are being met and that we're on the track to greatness - steady ladder position of the last two seasons, learned to win interstate, the coach has been resigned, the majority of the younger players are reaching 50 games, other players like Ross, Sinclair and Billings have gone to the next level, move to Moorabbin making us a "destination" club, lots of cap space to lure a superstar player, etc.

This was never supposed to be another development year. Even after a few bad losses, the sentiment was that it was just a bump in the road, it can be fixed, the ship will steady and finals "here we come."

Now we've conceded this as another development year and we're starting to applaud the same positives that we looked for in the Watters' era. It's a real sense of deja vu and I can't help but feel that it's a little foolhardy to see these positives as signs that once we're past this season, we will be better again. Especially if Richo is still our coach and Trout is still heading recruitment. It terrifies me to see another top 3 pick in his hands.

Out of curiosity, on balance, what should Trout have done differently do you think? perhaps leaving out the bust year of 2012

Do what he’s paid to do, which is recruit the best available talent.

mmmm... a bit general. 17 other clubs try to do the same thing and there are a few restrictions such as draft order salary cap etc etc. Its also not an exact science. Its a bit like saying Richo should do what he is paid to do - win a premiership evey year!
Would be interesting to hear what specifically he should have done.

I’m not saying that he needs to nail every pick, as that’s impossible and everyone makes mistakes.

But, a 5 year rebuilding phase, a lot of first round picks (including pick 1) and we’ve had no rising stars, no All Australians and a crop of 4 to 5 year players hitting 50-plus games that are still barely execute basic AFL skills.

Our two first picks in our wooden spoon year may not eve. be on our list at seasons end.

I’m not saying Trout is the sole problem, but he’s run during draft day has been anything but glorious.

[Crossy66]

There is a simple solution to this tread.
If you are all doom and gloom don't read it!
Some people here are optimistic and want to find something out of this season and some people aren't.
If you fall in the latter why do you feel the need to belittle people who don't share your view.
Surely it's not hard.
Personally I'm going through a lot in life at the moment and whilst I love this club, I can't let this years performance affect me as much as others.
Therefore I need to look for positives and yes there were quite a few this week.
I don't have my head in the sand and also am aware of our shortfalls.
Myself, and a few others would prefer to look for some positives for now.

Of course, there we're some positive aspects to our performance last Saturday, but there has been so much focus on the positives from brave losses over the last 7 seasons, that at what point do we move on from commending honourable losses and expect to start winning?

I take your point about wanting to extract something other than doom and gloom from a disappointing season, but this is a season where the club admin declared that all KPI's are being met and that we're on the track to greatness - steady ladder position of the last two seasons, learned to win interstate, the coach has been resigned, the majority of the younger players are reaching 50 games, other players like Ross, Sinclair and Billings have gone to the next level, move to Moorabbin making us a "destination" club, lots of cap space to lure a superstar player, etc.

This was never supposed to be another development year. Even after a few bad losses, the sentiment was that it was just a bump in the road, it can be fixed, the ship will steady and finals "here we come."

Now we've conceded this as another development year and we're starting to applaud the same positives that we looked for in the Watters' era. It's a real sense of deja vu and I can't help but feel that it's a little foolhardy to see these positives as signs that once we're past this season, we will be better again. Especially if Richo is still our coach and Trout is still heading recruitment. It terrifies me to see another top 3 pick in his hands.

Out of curiosity, on balance, what should Trout have done differently do you think? perhaps leaving out the bust year of 2012

Do what he’s paid to do, which is recruit the best available talent.

mmmm... a bit general. 17 other clubs try to do the same thing and there are a few restrictions such as draft order salary cap etc etc. Its also not an exact science. Its a bit like saying Richo should do what he is paid to do - win a premiership evey year!
Would be interesting to hear what specifically he should have done.

I’m not saying that he needs to nail every pick, as that’s impossible and everyone makes mistakes.

But, a 5 year rebuilding phase, a lot of first round picks (including pick 1) and we’ve had no rising stars, no All Australians and a crop of 4 to 5 year players hitting 50-plus games that are still barely execute basic AFL skills.

Our two first picks in our wooden spoon year may not eve. be on our list at seasons end.

I’m not saying Trout is the sole problem, but he’s run during draft day has been anything but glorious.

ZZZZZ....Still looking for some specifics!

[SydneySainter]

There is a simple solution to this tread.
If you are all doom and gloom don't read it!
Some people here are optimistic and want to find something out of this season and some people aren't.
If you fall in the latter why do you feel the need to belittle people who don't share your view.
Surely it's not hard.
Personally I'm going through a lot in life at the moment and whilst I love this club, I can't let this years performance affect me as much as others.
Therefore I need to look for positives and yes there were quite a few this week.
I don't have my head in the sand and also am aware of our shortfalls.
Myself, and a few others would prefer to look for some positives for now.

Of course, there we're some positive aspects to our performance last Saturday, but there has been so much focus on the positives from brave losses over the last 7 seasons, that at what point do we move on from commending honourable losses and expect to start winning?

I take your point about wanting to extract something other than doom and gloom from a disappointing season, but this is a season where the club admin declared that all KPI's are being met and that we're on the track to greatness - steady ladder position of the last two seasons, learned to win interstate, the coach has been resigned, the majority of the younger players are reaching 50 games, other players like Ross, Sinclair and Billings have gone to the next level, move to Moorabbin making us a "destination" club, lots of cap space to lure a superstar player, etc.

This was never supposed to be another development year. Even after a few bad losses, the sentiment was that it was just a bump in the road, it can be fixed, the ship will steady and finals "here we come."

Now we've conceded this as another development year and we're starting to applaud the same positives that we looked for in the Watters' era. It's a real sense of deja vu and I can't help but feel that it's a little foolhardy to see these positives as signs that once we're past this season, we will be better again. Especially if Richo is still our coach and Trout is still heading recruitment. It terrifies me to see another top 3 pick in his hands.

Out of curiosity, on balance, what should Trout have done differently do you think? perhaps leaving out the bust year of 2012

Do what he’s paid to do, which is recruit the best available talent.

mmmm... a bit general. 17 other clubs try to do the same thing and there are a few restrictions such as draft order salary cap etc etc. Its also not an exact science. Its a bit like saying Richo should do what he is paid to do - win a premiership evey year!
Would be interesting to hear what specifically he should have done.

I’m not saying that he needs to nail every pick, as that’s impossible and everyone makes mistakes.

But, a 5 year rebuilding phase, a lot of first round picks (including pick 1) and we’ve had no rising stars, no All Australians and a crop of 4 to 5 year players hitting 50-plus games that are still barely execute basic AFL skills.

Our two first picks in our wooden spoon year may not eve. be on our list at seasons end.

I’m not saying Trout is the sole problem, but he’s run during draft day has been anything but glorious.

ZZZZZ....Still looking for some specifics!

I'm not going argue or debate who we should have taken with specific picks, because we could be here until the cows come home, but as per my comments above, the proof is in the pudding.

You can judge the effectiveness of a club's recruiting by their current best 22 but as it stands, Carlisle is still our best player, followed by daylight, then Jack Steven. After that, not a single A grader. This is a list that's been 5 years in the making. If that's an example of good recruiting, then this club may never win it's second flag.

[Crossy66]

There is a simple solution to this tread.
If you are all doom and gloom don't read it!
Some people here are optimistic and want to find something out of this season and some people aren't.
If you fall in the latter why do you feel the need to belittle people who don't share your view.
Surely it's not hard.
Personally I'm going through a lot in life at the moment and whilst I love this club, I can't let this years performance affect me as much as others.
Therefore I need to look for positives and yes there were quite a few this week.
I don't have my head in the sand and also am aware of our shortfalls.
Myself, and a few others would prefer to look for some positives for now.

Of course, there we're some positive aspects to our performance last Saturday, but there has been so much focus on the positives from brave losses over the last 7 seasons, that at what point do we move on from commending honourable losses and expect to start winning?

I take your point about wanting to extract something other than doom and gloom from a disappointing season, but this is a season where the club admin declared that all KPI's are being met and that we're on the track to greatness - steady ladder position of the last two seasons, learned to win interstate, the coach has been resigned, the majority of the younger players are reaching 50 games, other players like Ross, Sinclair and Billings have gone to the next level, move to Moorabbin making us a "destination" club, lots of cap space to lure a superstar player, etc.

This was never supposed to be another development year. Even after a few bad losses, the sentiment was that it was just a bump in the road, it can be fixed, the ship will steady and finals "here we come."

Now we've conceded this as another development year and we're starting to applaud the same positives that we looked for in the Watters' era. It's a real sense of deja vu and I can't help but feel that it's a little foolhardy to see these positives as signs that once we're past this season, we will be better again. Especially if Richo is still our coach and Trout is still heading recruitment. It terrifies me to see another top 3 pick in his hands.

Out of curiosity, on balance, what should Trout have done differently do you think? perhaps leaving out the bust year of 2012

Do what he’s paid to do, which is recruit the best available talent.

mmmm... a bit general. 17 other clubs try to do the same thing and there are a few restrictions such as draft order salary cap etc etc. Its also not an exact science. Its a bit like saying Richo should do what he is paid to do - win a premiership evey year!
Would be interesting to hear what specifically he should have done.

I’m not saying that he needs to nail every pick, as that’s impossible and everyone makes mistakes.

But, a 5 year rebuilding phase, a lot of first round picks (including pick 1) and we’ve had no rising stars, no All Australians and a crop of 4 to 5 year players hitting 50-plus games that are still barely execute basic AFL skills.

Our two first picks in our wooden spoon year may not eve. be on our list at seasons end.

I’m not saying Trout is the sole problem, but he’s run during draft day has been anything but glorious.

ZZZZZ....Still looking for some specifics!

I'm not going argue or debate who we should have taken with specific picks, because we could be here until the cows come home, but as per my comments above, the proof is in the pudding.

You can judge the effectiveness of a club's recruiting by their current best 22 but as it stands, Carlisle is still our best player, followed by daylight, then Jack Steven. After that, not a single A grader. This is a list that's been 5 years in the making. If that's an example of good recruiting, then this club may never win it's second flag.

Ok so, so your comment has shifted to the "clubs" recruiting and not specifically trouts. There are other factors such as how many top ten draft picks he has had to work with, salary cap restrictions and a compromised draft etc. Is Melbournes recruiting any better when they have had 22 top ten picks to saints 7? What about Silvagni with the afl handouts to GWS and still cant win a flag. Is Silvagni a better recruiter? I think if you dont have confidence in Trout, its worth a few examples yeah?

[chico2001]

Start answering your own questions crossy66 and then you might get some specifics. Stop making excuses and give us some examples of your mate Trouts good recruiting since he has been in the job then and balance it out by some of the good players we have missed out on and be specific.

[skeptic]

As am armchair expert I would have taken Petracca ahead of Paddy and Caleb Daniels ahead of Lonie in 2014. That’s a start

[stonecold]

As am armchair expert I would have taken Petracca ahead of Paddy and Caleb Daniels ahead of Lonie in 2014. That’s a start

Easy to make that call now!!!!!

Petracca is still overrated, Billings has out performed him!!!!!

[Crossy66]

Start answering your own questions crossy66 and then you might get some specifics. Stop making excuses and give us some examples of your mate Trouts good recruiting since he has been in the job then and balance it out by some of the good players we have missed out on and be specific.

Thanks for the suggestion, but i did ask myself, I thought i would then ask someone else too if thats ok. Saints drafting has had its hits and misses but i think thats the nature of the business. Skeptic in the next post said he would have taken Petracca over McCartin and Daniels over Lonie. Nothing wrong with that, but i would have taken Degoey over both as i think he will be the better player. I dont think Petracca is in Melbournes best half dozen players which is not good for a mooted number one draft pick after 3 seasons. Btw. Paddy was always going top 3 and Petracca didnt want to be at StKilda. Saints were looking for a Riewoldt replacement and he was the most dominant forward in the country.

Caleb Daniel was taken at Pick 46 so every other recruiter passed on him - not just trout. hardly a sackable offence.

To use Melbourne as an example, Jason Taylor started in 2013 and presided over the following:
2013 took Viv Minchie for pick 54 that could have netted either Fantasia or sicily
Swapped Pick 2 for Dom Tyson which ended up been Josh Kelly.
Took Bernie Vince for pick 23 that ended up been Matt Crouch

2014 picked up Garlett, Ben Newton, then Heritier Lumumba for Mitch Clark.
Picked up Sam Frost for pick 23 that could have netted Mitch McGovern, Jack Steele, Caleb Daniel, Gregson

2015 took Bugg but could have had Curnow, Rioli, Gresham' Tom Phillips, Ryan Burton

I read in another post that Melb has had 22 top ten picks to StKildas 7 over a ten year period. Heres where they finished over the last ten years going backwards: 11, 13, 17, 17, 16,13,12, 16, 16, 14. So to get good draft picks, you have to be a rubbish team for 10 years. By comparison, we were playing finals for most of them.

So has Melbourne, on balance, performed better than the Saints at the draft table? Could Trout have done better if he had Melbournes picks?

I Wont go through all the Saints picks, everyone knows who they are, but i think we have assembled a good list that is under performing and lacks a couple of A grade imports. Is that player development or drafting? may be its not all Elshaugs fault

[skeptic]

As am armchair expert I would have taken Petracca ahead of Paddy and Caleb Daniels ahead of Lonie in 2014. That’s a start

Easy to make that call now!!!!!

Petracca is still overrated, Billings has out performed him!!!!!

No arguments there... was just answering the question on the table.

My other claim to fame is that I absolutely would have taken Judd over Ball back in the day but from a brief cursory glance... I think I would have pbly stuffed up more or less every other draft over the last 15 or so years.

BUT... if the club put me in charge randomly for that one draft in 2014, I’d have done ok.
Still would have taken Hugh Goddard in the 20s and pbly deferred to the club and netted us DMac too.

Tricky business this drafting game

[iwantmeseats]

LOVED Luke Ball, how could you not.
But not recruiting Judd, without any shadow of a doubt, cost us two flags. No ifs, no buts.

[SydneySainter]

Start answering your own questions crossy66 and then you might get some specifics. Stop making excuses and give us some examples of your mate Trouts good recruiting since he has been in the job then and balance it out by some of the good players we have missed out on and be specific.

I Wont go through all the Saints picks, everyone knows who they are, but i think we have assembled a good list that is under performing and lacks a couple of A grade imports. Is that player development or drafting? may be its not all Elshaugs fault

I think it's a combination of three factors - drafting, development and coaching. Neither department is solely to blame, but neither can wash their hands of it either.

At best, we've assembled a list of good depth players that would be a great supporting cast in a team of at least four or five A graders, but none who are clearly A graders themselves. Only Gresh and Acres look as if they could become A graders.

[chico2001]

I compare to Melbourne because most posters talk about McCartin vs Petracca. If McCartin was the most dominant forward in the country I would have hated to see the rest, he doesnt even have a natural kicking action which would give him accuracy and distance. Who are you trying to kid?
I would have Petracca anyday 48 games at a goal a game and a rising star nominee and can bust a pack open and has good skills. Not sure if some of the posters know what a good footballer looks like.

Look at melbournes lot that I have highlighted....right here...right now......as we speak

*Hogan 60 games at nearly 2.5 goals a game
*Salem 55 games
*Petracca 48-rising star nom
*Viney 90
*Tyson 96
*Brayshaw 43- rising star nom
*Oliver 45
*Hannam 26 at a goal a game

These players are in the same bracket as the saints selections over the years, Melbourne now looks like going into the finals this year and with a strong game plan and a tough bunch of midfielders who can get their own ball and deliver it and most of them can kick a goal

They picked up Lever so he would be equal to Carlisle although I think Carlisle is a better player. They also recruited Hibberd who is a very good player IMO.
Melbourne have 43,000 members


Saints have too many excuses but I do concur with the combination of 3 factors leading to the clubs failure, but recruiting should be number 1 and he/they have failed miserably. I dont care if you isolate Elshaugh out from the club in recruiting or not. If you keep supporting these people and not calling them out we will all end up following a team that wont make the finals for the next 5 years and not only that, in debt up to their eyeballs.

[SydneySainter]

I compare to Melbourne because most posters talk about McCartin vs Petracca. If McCartin was the most dominant forward in the country I would have hated to see the rest, he doesnt even have a natural kicking action which would give him accuracy and distance. Who are you trying to kid?
I would have Petracca anyday 48 games at a goal a game and a rising star nominee and can bust a pack open and has good skills. Not sure if some of the posters know what a good footballer looks like.

Look at melbournes lot that I have highlighted....right here...right now......as we speak

*Hogan 60 games at nearly 2.5 goals a game
*Salem 55 games
*Petracca 48-rising star nom
*Viney 90
*Tyson 96
*Brayshaw 43- rising star nom
*Oliver 45
*Hannam 26 at a goal a game

These players are in the same bracket as the saints selections over the years, Melbourne now looks like going into the finals this year and with a strong game plan and a tough bunch of midfielders who can get their own ball and deliver it and most of them can kick a goal

They picked up Lever so he would be equal to Carlisle although I think Carlisle is a better player. They also recruited Hibberd who is a very good player IMO.
Melbourne have 43,000 members


Saints have too many excuses but I do concur with the combination of 3 factors leading to the clubs failure, but recruiting should be number 1 and he/they have failed miserably. I dont care if you isolate Elshaugh out from the club in recruiting or not. If you keep supporting these people and not calling them out we will all end up following a team that wont make the finals for the next 5 years and not only that, in debt up to their eyeballs.

+1

[Crossy66]

I compare to Melbourne because most posters talk about McCartin vs Petracca. If McCartin was the most dominant forward in the country I would have hated to see the rest, he doesnt even have a natural kicking action which would give him accuracy and distance. Who are you trying to kid?
I would have Petracca anyday 48 games at a goal a game and a rising star nominee and can bust a pack open and has good skills. Not sure if some of the posters know what a good footballer looks like.

Look at melbournes lot that I have highlighted....right here...right now......as we speak

*Hogan 60 games at nearly 2.5 goals a game
*Salem 55 games
*Petracca 48-rising star nom
*Viney 90
*Tyson 96
*Brayshaw 43- rising star nom
*Oliver 45
*Hannam 26 at a goal a game

These players are in the same bracket as the saints selections over the years, Melbourne now looks like going into the finals this year and with a strong game plan and a tough bunch of midfielders who can get their own ball and deliver it and most of them can kick a goal

They picked up Lever so he would be equal to Carlisle although I think Carlisle is a better player. They also recruited Hibberd who is a very good player IMO.
Melbourne have 43,000 members


Saints have too many excuses but I do concur with the combination of 3 factors leading to the clubs failure, but recruiting should be number 1 and he/they have failed miserably. I dont care if you isolate Elshaugh out from the club in recruiting or not. If you keep supporting these people and not calling them out we will all end up following a team that wont make the finals for the next 5 years and not only that, in debt up to their eyeballs.

+1

Ok, so Sydneysainter and to a lesser degree chico agree that the problem is a combination of drafting, Development and coaching, therefore not just the fault of recruiting.
Elshaugh answered to Ameet Bains who oversaw recruiting and did list management up until end of 2016 - therefore wouldnt be solely responsible would he?
If you want to hold up Melbourne as the model we should follow, we will need to finish 11, 13, 17, 17, 16,13,12, 16, 16, 14 over a 10 year period to get the same draft picks. Happy with that?

The players you mentioned:
Hogan - good player tick and his best years should be ahead of him. But he was a pick 3
Salem - maybe a B grader taken at pick 9. COuld have had any of Cripps, Sheed,Merritt,Dunstan, Acres Matt Crouch in the same draft -

Petracca rising B grader at this point- Statistically outgunned by Billings, also a rising star nominee, in most areas such as disposals, marks, goal assists, rebound 50's with less cough ups . Not in Melbournes best 1/2 dozen... yet

Viney - good player but a father / son so not really a great draft pick as such
Dom Tyson - lol, currently a reserves player and they basically swapped him for Josh Kelly (pick 2) oops!
Hannan - currently a reserves player
Clayton Oliver - good player big tick
Brayshaw - a gift from the AFL as compensation for Frawley. good player, but could be a concussion or two away from retirement (hope not)

Add to this the players mentioned early that they could have had, i dont think its a benchmark recruiting department and not much to show for the 15 extra top ten picks.
The benchmark for me is Sydney. They do get some benefits via the academy but their development of rookie players is extraordinary and i think this is in part due to culture and structure. Structure you can fix quickly but culture happens over time. So my view is that blaming recruiting in isolation is a little simplistic.
In any case, i thought i heard that Elshaugh was stepping down at the end of the year.

Re: Paddy, assuming he doesnt get another concussion, i still think he will be a good player. Not sure why the knock on his kicking. As a reminder, watch this:

[portosaint]

I compare to Melbourne because most posters talk about McCartin vs Petracca. If McCartin was the most dominant forward in the country I would have hated to see the rest, he doesnt even have a natural kicking action which would give him accuracy and distance. Who are you trying to kid?
I would have Petracca anyday 48 games at a goal a game and a rising star nominee and can bust a pack open and has good skills. Not sure if some of the posters know what a good footballer looks like.

Look at melbournes lot that I have highlighted....right here...right now......as we speak

*Hogan 60 games at nearly 2.5 goals a game
*Salem 55 games
*Petracca 48-rising star nom
*Viney 90
*Tyson 96
*Brayshaw 43- rising star nom
*Oliver 45
*Hannam 26 at a goal a game

These players are in the same bracket as the saints selections over the years, Melbourne now looks like going into the finals this year and with a strong game plan and a tough bunch of midfielders who can get their own ball and deliver it and most of them can kick a goal

They picked up Lever so he would be equal to Carlisle although I think Carlisle is a better player. They also recruited Hibberd who is a very good player IMO.
Melbourne have 43,000 members


Saints have too many excuses but I do concur with the combination of 3 factors leading to the clubs failure, but recruiting should be number 1 and he/they have failed miserably. I dont care if you isolate Elshaugh out from the club in recruiting or not. If you keep supporting these people and not calling them out we will all end up following a team that wont make the finals for the next 5 years and not only that, in debt up to their eyeballs.

Paddy was actually the most dominant U18 player in a decade. Love him or hate him, that is the fact and he was going in the top few picks.

And an absolute dead eye dick and beautiful set shot. Which is why I question the club and its ability to nurture talent

[mbogo]

What has happened to Paddy, that's the question after watching this video. Injured? Concussion affected, coached to mark with flat hands? No encouragement to lead and attack the footy?
It's all very strange!

[chico2001]

Hannam isnt in the reserves !!!! and Tyson has played 6 games this year. Your still making excuses for the club. 15 top ten picks seems a little bit more gilding of the lily as well. This is the team Melbourne have right now and the picks roughly align with saints as for games played so why do you keep making excuses. Your accuracy needs to be checked as well. I reckon your related to Elshaugh. Ameet bains came across as a flog to me but he was still part of the St Kilda FC who are responsible for this mess and I am so glad he left.

There is not much more to say about Paddy, but I cant see how the club has taken away his beautiful set shot, lets discuss this again after round 23 after he has kicked 25 + goals.

[bigred]

Paddy has not clunked a single mark this year.

Would have juggled at least a dozen that he has completed and dropped that many again....

[Crossy66]

Hannam isnt in the reserves !!!! and Tyson has played 6 games this year. Your still making excuses for the club. 15 top ten picks seems a little bit more gilding of the lily as well. This is the team Melbourne have right now and the picks roughly align with saints as for games played so why do you keep making excuses. Your accuracy needs to be checked as well. I reckon your related to Elshaugh. Ameet bains came across as a flog to me but he was still part of the St Kilda FC who are responsible for this mess and I am so glad he left.

There is not much more to say about Paddy, but I cant see how the club has taken away his beautiful set shot, lets discuss this again after round 23 after he has kicked 25 + goals.

Ok,

Mitch Hannan 2018 Stats for you...( in the reserves at Casey) interesting he has had 12 effective kicks and 15 inefficient kicks.... mmm
source: http://websites.sportstg.com/team_info. ... 2-26138799

Game Log
DATE OPPOSITION BST G BHD KE KIE HE HIE HR CM UM MKS TKS FF FA HO
Sun 8/Apr Coburg 3 3 1 11 5 8 1 6 1 4 5 1 2 2 0
Sun 22/Apr Richmond 0 0 1 10 5 2 2 3 1 5 6 6 2 0 0

Dom Tyson played last two games in reserves and heres the on ball division for this weeks game at Williamstown for you:

R: 34. M. King, 71. D. Tyson, 15. B. Stretch (thats your boy Dom Tyson number 71. Personally i'd prefer Josh Kelly but your entitled to your opinion.

Melbournes ladder position for TEN years going backwards from 2016 (includes 2 wooden spoons) - 11, 13, 17, 17, 16,13,12, 16, 16, 14.
You actually get good draft picks for this, plus AFL charity priority pick. Point is the Dees have had much better picks than the saints, so they are not "roughly aligned" as you put it.

Ameet came across as a flog to you? Bulldogs took a different view, gave him the top job and are probably paying him north of $500k. but your entitled to your opinion.
I never met Ameet, so dont have an opinion. But he was Elshaughs boss, maybe a flog and maybe to blame then?

About Paddy's set shot, he isnt the only saint who has gone backwards with their set shots. Membrey, Billings, Bruce to name a few others.
And your other point that i am still making excuses for the club - i'm not. I just dont agree that its all one blokes fault. Do you think sacking Trout will fix everything? If the answer is no then by extension you are in agreement that other factors such as coaching, development, structure, culture could be factors.

Also on your earlier post re Membership numbers? Heres the list as at April 13, 2018 (source AFL.com.au) Unless its changes in the last month, Saints stack up well with Dees:
Richmond 90,023
Adelaide 82,699
Hawthorn 72,661
West Coast N/A
Collingwood N/A
Essendon 69,401
Port Adelaide 58,059
Sydney 57,964
Geelong 55,908
Fremantle 50,000+
Carlton 49,609
St Kilda 40,711
Western Bulldogs 40,111
Melbourne 40,012
North Melbourne 36,655
Brisbane 23,649
Greater Western Sydney 20,104
Gold Coast 9,777
View image on Twitter


And finally, no i am not related to Elshaugh and wouldnt know him if he popped up in my fruit loops. i am just saying that our current situation is more than recruiting and you disagree. Thats ok, its a good debate

[chico2001]

I would like to see some pass marks for the club and some players. Put your scrawny necks on the line for once. Paddy 25+goals, Billings ....more goals this year than Petracca, even though Petracca has missed a few, Newnes...1 tackle a game for the rest of the year and last but not least....Richo....6 wins. All good Key performance indicators. C'mon cowboys...how much do you really know about football.


Take away the excuses and what do you have left?

[SuperDuper]

As am armchair expert I would have taken Petracca ahead of Paddy and Caleb Daniels ahead of Lonie in 2014. That’s a start

Easy to make that call now!!!!!

Petracca is still overrated, Billings has out performed him!!!!!

No. It was easy to make that call back then. The whole of the AFL industry had Petracca at 1. That is very well documented

And besides, trouts job is to pick the junior who is going to be the best player at senior level. That is actually his job. So yes, we need to wait until players mature and see how they perform as senior players to make a call on how well Trout is doing his job.

In that case, he picked the wrong player, meaning he did poorly in his job. That is how we are judging him.

How else would you judge him?

[freely]

Yeah and Melbourne picked jack watts over nicnat - hindsight is a beautiful thing.every club makes bad calls every draft. It's a gamble. Roo was probably the only clear standout number 1 pick in 20 years.

[kosifantutti]

As am armchair expert I would have taken Petracca ahead of Paddy and Caleb Daniels ahead of Lonie in 2014. That’s a start

Easy to make that call now!!!!!

Petracca is still overrated, Billings has out performed him!!!!!

No. It was easy to make that call back then. The whole of the AFL industry had Petracca at 1. That is very well documented

So you’ll have no problem providing a link then. Because my recollection is it was out of those two for the last few months before the draft.