Sacking of Tony Jewell ('84) and App't of Gellie: History Lessons?

[shanegrambeau]

Gellie's fist game as coach saw us defeat Richmond at Moorabbin in what was to be Brian Taylor's last game for the Tigers. The boof headed, bad tempered sook was thrashed all day by Saints' teenaged full back Danny Frawley. The bloated ego was dragged from the ground kicking and screaming after manhandling and lashing out at Frawley, never to be seen in "yella and black" again. Fat wimp.
One thing nobody has touched on was the Club was basically broke.

Wow...thinking about young Spud giving it to the precocious goon Taylor....nice....

But being broke...yep. Remember Allan Jeans was not fully paid (or at least that was a rumour). So economics played a role in the Gellie choice.?

[rodgerfox]

To be honest, I can't see a single thing that links 1985 to now.

I can't see anything that could be learnt, nor any correlation or even remote similarities to the current time.

[saintspremiers]

Imagine in those days if we had the draft.

We would’ve still got the 4 wooden spoons in a row and had 3 Paddy’s and one Billings in the team.

[rodgerfox]

Imagine in those days if we had the draft.

We would’ve still got the 4 wooden spoons in a row and had 3 Paddy’s and one Billings in the team.

?

St Kilda has been one of the better performed clubs in the AFL.

[rodgerfox]

Imagine in those days if we had the draft.

We would’ve still got the 4 wooden spoons in a row and had 3 Paddy’s and one Billings in the team.

Comparing our ladder positions in the AFL to two of the 'powerhouses' under the archaic VFL rules....

Year	Saints	Essendon	Carlton
1990	9	1	8
1991	4	6	11
1992	6	8	7
1993	12	1	2
1994	13	10	2
1995	14	4	1
1996	10	6	5
1997	1	14	11
1998	6	8	11
1999	10	1	6
2000	16	1	2
2001	15	1	5
2002	15	5	16
2003	11	8	15
2004	3	8	11
2005	4	13	16
2006	6	15	16
2007	9	12	15
2008	4	12	11
2009	1	8	7
2010	3	14	8
2011	6	8	5
2012	9	11	10
2013	16	7	9
2014	18	7	13
2015	14	15	18
2016	9	18	14
2017	11	7	16
2018	16	11	18
Avg.	9.3	8.3	10

	Saints	Essendon	Carlton
Finals Played	25	32	22
Finals Won	11	15	11
Wooden Spoons	2	1	5
Flags	0	2	2
McLellan Trophys	2	5	1
GFs	3	3	3
Caught Cheating	0	2	1

So given the head start the VFL powerhouses had, I think we've held our own really well. Hardly disgraced.

[Sainternist]

Imagine in those days if we had the draft.

We would’ve still got the 4 wooden spoons in a row and had 3 Paddy’s and one Billings in the team.

Comparing our ladder positions in the AFL to two of the 'powerhouses' under the archaic VFL rules....

Year	Saints	Essendon	Carlton
1990	9	1	8
1991	4	6	11
1992	6	8	7
1993	12	1	2
1994	13	10	2
1995	14	4	1
1996	10	6	5
1997	1	14	11
1998	6	8	11
1999	10	1	6
2000	16	1	2
2001	15	1	5
2002	15	5	16
2003	11	8	15
2004	3	8	11
2005	4	13	16
2006	6	15	16
2007	9	12	15
2008	4	12	11
2009	1	8	7
2010	3	14	8
2011	6	8	5
2012	9	11	10
2013	16	7	9
2014	18	7	13
2015	14	15	18
2016	9	18	14
2017	11	7	16
2018	16	11	18
Avg.	9.3	8.3	10

	Saints	Essendon	Carlton
Finals Played	25	32	22
Finals Won	11	15	11
Wooden Spoons	2	1	5
Flags	0	2	2
McLellan Trophys	2	5	1
GFs	3	3	3
Caught Cheating	0	2	1

So given the head start the VFL powerhouses had, I think we've held our own really well. Hardly disgraced.

Some really interesting stats there, Rodger. Thanks for sharing!

[bigred]

Nice Dataz Rog.

If only we had pinched a flag or two...

If only.

[spert]

Having gone through all that period of inconsistency and failure, I just put it down to yet another in a series of dud presidents and boards -Fox included, whose idea of a long term vision was about the length of their arm at best. Short term fixes were seen as the solution to everything, They really made a meal of that period in our club's dismal history. I remember when Doc later came on board as coach, that we started to see a positive trend. I remember Fox telling me back then "there is no way South Melbourne will go to Sydney!"

[rodgerfox]

Nice Dataz Rog.

Just to expand further...

Club	Saints	Essendon	Carlton	Richmond	Collingwood
Avg. Ladder Position	9.3	8.3	10	10.2	8.0

	Saints	Essendon	Carlton	Richmond	Collingwood
Finals Played	25	32	22	13	33
Finals Won	11	15	11	6	19
Finals Appearances	10	17	9	7	14
Wooden Spoons	2	1	5	2	1
Flags	0	2	2	1	2
McLellan Trophys	2	5	1	1	2
GFs	3	3	3	1	6
Caught Cheating	0	2	1	0	0

Now this isn't intended to be a dick swinging contest to see who is the better club. Clearly, the 0 in the 'Flags' column rules the Saints out of that type of contest. These are just figures that show that we've clearly outperformed Carlton and Richmond for the past 30 years in terms of 'sustained success' or 'long term performance', and aren't all that far behind Essendon either.

Our average ladder position is better, we've had more finals appearances than them, won more finals than them, played in more GFs than them and finished on top more than them.

Yet....

They get the season opener. They get Saturday arvo games at the MCG. They get Friday nights. They get ANZAC Day Eve. They get Dreamtime at the G. etc. etc.

The fixturing is NOT performance based. As I've said many times, no matter what we do, we will NEVER, EVER get precedence over the historically big clubs in terms of primetime fixturing. We don't get left out because of Richo, or Finnis, or Elshaug - we get left out because we don't have the supporter base that the big clubs have.

[asiu]

wow

sensational stats

the maggots have done alright

we've been better than bad

[Dave McNamara]

Overall, our recent history stacks up damn well against the monied mobs. (I think that during the GT and Ro$$y years we had the best win/loss ratio in the comp'...?)

The painful problem is highlighted in the fourth-last category from Rodger's 'further expansion'.


A classic case. Worst record by far of any side since the introduction of the AFL. Thirty-two years of ineptitude and chicken hearts delivered by the truckload. Then, out of nowhere, one flash in the pan, against pretty ordinary contenders... and all that is forgotten.


Or put another way. Before that aberration (and just watch them revert back to their norm, as per the Poodles ), since 1965, that mob, so synonymous in the footy public's mind with the 60's, 70's and early 80's - had played in the same number of GFs as our wondrous Saints!

Even the 60's, seen as the re-birth of that team that plays with a yellow streak on its back... 'eat 'em alive', Hafey's heroes, and all that rubbish. '67 and '69 were the only two seasons in the 60's that they played finals...



Come on Saintas! Start winning us some flags!!!

[samuraisaint]

In their first 50 years in the VFL between 1925 and 1974 Hawthorn had only made finals 4 times. But had 2 premierships to show for it.

[samuraisaint]

Overall, our recent history stacks up damn well against the monied mobs. (I think that during the GT and Ro$$y years we had the best win/loss ratio in the comp'...?)

The painful problem is highlighted in the fourth-last category from Rodger's 'further expansion'.


A classic case. Worst record by far of any side since the introduction of the AFL. Thirty-two years of ineptitude and chicken hearts delivered by the truckload. Then, out of nowhere, one flash in the pan, against pretty ordinary contenders... and all that is forgotten.


Or put another way. Before that aberration (and just watch them revert back to their norm, as per the Poodles ), since 1965, that mob, so synonymous in the footy public's mind with the 60's, 70's and early 80's - had played in the same number of GFs as our wondrous Saints!

Even the 60's, seen as the re-birth of that team that plays with a yellow streak on its back... 'eat 'em alive', Hafey's heroes, and all that rubbish. '67 and '69 were the only two seasons in the 60's that they played finals...



Come on Saintas! Start winning us some flags!!!

Our big chance to turn history around was in 1997 - Big crowds, momentum, playing the weakest of the likely opponents - and luck just didn't go our way.

[Dave McNamara]

Our big chance to turn history around was in 1997 - Big crowds, momentum, playing the weakest of the likely opponents - and luck just didn't go our way.

I agree.

Modra's injury aside (Shanahan always had him covered), and even without Lazar or that other bloke , come the end of the second Prelim', everything looked pretty damn to plan. But then...

Loewe's family tragedy.
Winmar's family tragedy.
Harvey's fractured rib at the opening bounce.
Heaters' missing shots he never missed.
Jar-bloody-man... never bloody missing! From anywhere! (The Crones didn't miss a single set shot on goal either.)

Oh the horror!



But I wasn't too concerned. We had a young team. Lose one to win several. A run of flag contention beckoned...

But instead, after about half way through 1998, we managed to self-destruct. That's what really hurt.

[rodgerfox]

Overall, our recent history stacks up damn well against the monied mobs. (I think that during the GT and Ro$$y years we had the best win/loss ratio in the comp'...?)

The painful problem is highlighted in the fourth-last category from Rodger's 'further expansion'.


A classic case. Worst record by far of any side since the introduction of the AFL. Thirty-two years of ineptitude and chicken hearts delivered by the truckload. Then, out of nowhere, one flash in the pan, against pretty ordinary contenders... and all that is forgotten.


Or put another way. Before that aberration (and just watch them revert back to their norm, as per the Poodles ), since 1965, that mob, so synonymous in the footy public's mind with the 60's, 70's and early 80's - had played in the same number of GFs as our wondrous Saints!

Even the 60's, seen as the re-birth of that team that plays with a yellow streak on its back... 'eat 'em alive', Hafey's heroes, and all that rubbish. '67 and '69 were the only two seasons in the 60's that they played finals...



Come on Saintas! Start winning us some flags!!!

Our big chance to turn history around was in 1997 - Big crowds, momentum, playing the weakest of the likely opponents - and luck just didn't go our way.

North won two flags, were the dominant team in.The comp for nearly a decade, and had the greatest player of all time - yet history didn't change one bit.


Saints fans lamenting what could have been, and what could be - are frankly delusional.

As I've said before, supporter bases were forged nearly 100 years ago and haven't changed.

This dream that the Saints can 'turn it around' and become a big club is just fantasy stuff.

They can't. Never, ever will.

[Dave McNamara]

Rodge', maybe you were at the 'scary Davenport' match at the 'G in 1991? (Or was it 1992?)

90000-odd crowd, with an estimated 20000 turned away. (My mob arrived late, but waltzed straight in - to the Ponsford Stand. Whilst everyone was trying to check out the then brand new Great Southern Stand. )

Background: I used to work as an usher at the finals at Waverley. If the Skunks were playing, they always had the majority of the crowd support. Even against fellow lowlifes like Carlscum and Effendrug. (The 80's, so not one Saint's game. )

Back to that day at the 'G. That crowd was 50/50 in their support!

In other words, I've seen no other club's fan base being able to 'match it' with the Skunks. But, we did!

The Saintas have a huge (and historical) fan base. We should damn well be a league power! But being St Kilda , we only ever were for that brief (but wondrous) period early 60's to early 70's. (Then interest rates going mad sent us crashing. And then, almost to oblivion. )

But again, my point is, yes, we damn well do have a huge following. All the more remarkable given our track record at times. 'Juggernaut' was the one thing Cuddles got right (even if he didn't really know it.)

But to my continual frustration, our lack of vision, sees us continually fail to leverage our supporter base, and all that makes our club so unique in a world of AFL vanilla. And yes, JO would/should be the key to us for fulfilling this destiny!





PS: Hey Rodge', this is a bit belated, I know, but, great to have you back posting.

[samuraisaint]

Overall, our recent history stacks up damn well against the monied mobs. (I think that during the GT and Ro$$y years we had the best win/loss ratio in the comp'...?)

The painful problem is highlighted in the fourth-last category from Rodger's 'further expansion'.


A classic case. Worst record by far of any side since the introduction of the AFL. Thirty-two years of ineptitude and chicken hearts delivered by the truckload. Then, out of nowhere, one flash in the pan, against pretty ordinary contenders... and all that is forgotten.


Or put another way. Before that aberration (and just watch them revert back to their norm, as per the Poodles ), since 1965, that mob, so synonymous in the footy public's mind with the 60's, 70's and early 80's - had played in the same number of GFs as our wondrous Saints!

Even the 60's, seen as the re-birth of that team that plays with a yellow streak on its back... 'eat 'em alive', Hafey's heroes, and all that rubbish. '67 and '69 were the only two seasons in the 60's that they played finals...



Come on Saintas! Start winning us some flags!!!

Our big chance to turn history around was in 1997 - Big crowds, momentum, playing the weakest of the likely opponents - and luck just didn't go our way.

North won two flags, were the dominant team in.The comp for nearly a decade, and had the greatest player of all time - yet history didn't change one bit.


Saints fans lamenting what could have been, and what could be - are frankly delusional.

As I've said before, supporter bases were forged nearly 100 years ago and haven't changed.

This dream that the Saints can 'turn it around' and become a big club is just fantasy stuff.

They can't. Never, ever will.

Sorry, have to disagree there. Hawthorn struggled to get people to their games until they nearly merged with Melbourne in 1996. Then they rallied the troops. Their grounds were empty and when they played at VFL Park the stadium was often bare, even with all of their success.

I remember going to the Ansett Cup GF in 1996 - Almost 70,000 people for a glorified practice game - overwhelmingly St Kilda supporters.

We were getting excellent crowds ten years ago - but we couldn't capitalise on it because our administration signed us up to a deal every bit as strangling as a Californian divorce court - and the fact that we couldn't and didn't win a Flag.

Premierships make a difference.

We are an old club, one of the oldest in the world actually and have plenty of supporters but not winning that grand final hurt. Probably more than 2009 and 2010 actually.

We can't be compared to North Melbourne because they were sandwiched between successful clubs like Carlton, Essendon and Melbourne. We were south of the Yarra and most of our supporters were not even from our home suburb - they were south of Elsternwick, where there was no competition from other VFL teams.

There are plenty of St Kilda supporters and the fact that we have over 45,000 members tells me that we can turn it around, but we must win a Flag. And our administration need to be absolutely ruthless to make that happen.

[shanegrambeau]

I was getting at coaches (the changing of them and administration changes) in respect to history lessons as well as the list changes and use of fill-up players. I aslo wondered about the perception of St Kilda at the time - 'a rabble' as Elliot called it and the perception of us now, as a destination team NOT.

That list is so impressive. I wonder how it would look with coaches/president changes.

We've had 8 coaches since the AFL began. The others less. Hawthorn six including Jeans's last year in 1990.

[rodgerfox]

Sorry, have to disagree there. Hawthorn struggled to get people to their games until they nearly merged with Melbourne in 1996. Then they rallied the troops. Their grounds were empty and when they played at VFL Park the stadium was often bare, even with all of their success.

I remember going to the Ansett Cup GF in 1996 - Almost 70,000 people for a glorified practice game - overwhelmingly St Kilda supporters.

We were getting excellent crowds ten years ago - but we couldn't capitalise on it because our administration signed us up to a deal every bit as strangling as a Californian divorce court - and the fact that we couldn't and didn't win a Flag.

Premierships make a difference.

We are an old club, one of the oldest in the world actually and have plenty of supporters but not winning that grand final hurt. Probably more than 2009 and 2010 actually.

We can't be compared to North Melbourne because they were sandwiched between successful clubs like Carlton, Essendon and Melbourne. We were south of the Yarra and most of our supporters were not even from our home suburb - they were south of Elsternwick, where there was no competition from other VFL teams.

There are plenty of St Kilda supporters and the fact that we have over 45,000 members tells me that we can turn it around, but we must win a Flag. And our administration need to be absolutely ruthless to make that happen.

Disagree. Happy to agree to disagree.



On a slightly different note....

Is it possible, that certain demographics simply place footy far higher on their list of priorities than others?

I mean Melbourne historically has a large supporter base, but the average fan simply has better s*** to do with their lives than spend it at the footy.

Whereas the average Collingwood, Essendon and Richmond fan lives and breathes the s***.

If, as you say, the Saints have heaps of supporters, why have we never been able to generate interest and crowds like the big clubs? Even after outperforming them for 30 years?

Is it because we simply don't care?

And is that a bad thing?

I always do find the footy world kind of weird. In the real world, people who go to the footy every week and wear their club polo shirt on weekends are considered straight up losers.

But in the footy world, if you don't rock up to 'support the boys' in rain, hail or shine and base your whole self worth on the size of your footy club - you're looked down upon!


Maybe that's why these clubs are big, and others aren't?

[Joffa Burns]

Lucky for Richo that Fox isn't our current President!

He is also lucky Gerry Ryan isn’t our president

[shanegrambeau]

Lucky for Richo that Fox isn't our current President!

He is also lucky Gerry Ryan isn’t our president

Did Fox leave in ‘85? after the debt crisis and subsequent payment (22% to players and 7% to non-players) to the clubs creditors.

Perhaps Gellie was paid a pittance and thus more attractive in that period given our woes and that the VFL didn’t offer help.

Sure are different times.