ATT: RICHO BASHERS

[WellardSaint]

Billings, Gresh and Steele have that genetic ability to improve regardless of coaches.
Just born for it.
Acres and a few others are examples of why AR isn't good at development.
IMHO

[Scollop]

The problems we see with our gameplan and our style are not new. Our back end of 2017 was as bad as the footy we are playing now.

The excuses regarding list management are just that...excuses!! How can a head coach not be part of the decision making on who he wants in his team?

We had already lost Ben McEvoy when Cho came on board. When Cho was appointed he spent a year at the club and was part of the decision to on trade Rhys Stanley. After Hickey was showing good signs as one of the leagues emerging ruckmen and approched the top 5 best rucks in the competition during 2016, Cho decided after a few games into 2017 that Longer was his preferred option.

I generally agree with his analysis on game day, but he's got this terribly wrong. Most Saints people who follows things a bit closer and who give a stuff would disagree. I'm sure Carey wouldn't worry too much if the Saints stay at between 14th to 9th on the ladder for the next five years.

The article is simplistic bs based on an outsiders views on the club. Carey was probably the best footballer (for value to team/leadership/ability to impact result/kicking accuracy/big game player) I have seen in 30 years but that doesn't mean he has credibility as a footy journo.

We have a bloke who is your modern day tall, strong, agile mid in the mould of a Fyfe, Mundy, Cripps etc..If Acres was allowed to play in the middle and develop his craft he could be one of the clubs most important players. Cho preferred Newnes, Ross, Dunstan and also Weller who would later be delisted rather than play Blake Acres each and every week in the middle. Apologists keep telling us that Blake is lazy. Give it a rest.

Part of the problem is because the head coach is soft. Rooy hinted as such in mid 2018. It wasn't bad luck that Billings took 5 years to be a consistently good player. It wasn't just Paddy McCartin's fault that he wasn't fit enough or his diabetes that was to blame for him not getting up to speed with his fitness until preseason in 2019.

Our marquee matches over the last few years have been horrendous. Richo deflects the balme and points to poor skills, poor confidence and poor leadership. We all know that his defacto coaches and motivators were Roo, Joey, Shinner and Chips. Armo and Gears and Gilbo had been tainted and our young blokes had to listen to their leader blame them for 2018.

Lethlean was forced to appoint an external motivator and LEADER with credibity even though he's from a 'RugbyLeague' background.

Coach of the year...LOL

[Trev from the Bush]

The Duck may not be relevant if talking about being a model citizen. But what he doesn't know about football could be written with a Texta on a postage stamp with some space left over.

Good thinking, Duck.

[Scollop]

Yeah well done Matt Finnis for extending Cho's contract

We wanted for years and YEARS to lure a big fish as long as it wasn't Clarko or Longmire or Mark Williams

[Scollop]

Richo was just all talk about reviewing things strongly while his opposition peers were shnitzelling their players...

Wayne is an outsider. Wayne didn't sit there each week listening to Richo's pressers.

Wayne Carey wouldn't have the same insight that Nick Riewoldt would have

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-gr ... dc1738bcee

[saintsRrising]

Yes I think he has coached better this year.

But I think that there are ongoing issues like our forward line entries that after coaching for so long indicate that he is not the answer.

Development of youth was meant to have been a key reason of why he was appointed.

I look at our youth at Sandi and in the seniors over his tenure and see little that strikes me as a great developer of young talent.

Marshall is now exciting everyone as a No 1 ruck. But was he groomed for that role at Sandi? No he was not. More we played him in that role in the seniors as all the ruckman apart from the inexperienced rookie Ali were out injured.

I thought ratten was the forward and transition coach. Must be no good either.
Regarding developing players, I think we have done agreat job albeit through adversity. I e. Marshall, battle, wilke, parker, patton, plus ongoing improvement from billings gresh, Steele etc. Etc

So Richo developed Wilkie?

Surely you jest? Wilkie ARRIVED with his skill set.
He has been good from day one at the club. Putting that done to Richo is far fetched.


Parker shows raw talent but needs to be developed and to learn team football. He has not yet been developed.

Marshall. Was not developed as a ruck. That he is pur No1 now is due to circumstance and not good development and coaching.

Battle. Yes good decision to play him down back when Carlisle went down.

[saintsRrising]

Yes I think he has coached better this year.

But I think that there are ongoing issues like our forward line entries that after coaching for so long indicate that he is not the answer.

Development of youth was meant to have been a key reason of why he was appointed.

I look at our youth at Sandi and in the seniors over his tenure and see little that strikes me as a great developer of young talent.

Marshall is now exciting everyone as a No 1 ruck. But was he groomed for that role at Sandi? No he was not. More we played him in that role in the seniors as all the ruckman apart from the inexperienced rookie Ali were out injured.

I thought ratten was the forward and transition coach. Must be no good either.
Regarding developing players, I think we have done agreat job albeit through adversity. I e. Marshall, battle, wilke, parker, patton, plus ongoing improvement from billings gresh, Steele etc. Etc

So Richo developed Wilkie?

Surely you jest? Wilkie ARRIVED with his skill set.
He has been good from day one at the club. Putting that down to Richo is far fetched.


Parker shows raw talent but needs to be developed and to learn team football. He has not yet been developed.

Marshall. Was not developed as a ruck. That he is pur No1 now is due to circumstance and not good development and coaching.

Battle. Yes good decision to play him down back when Carlisle went down.

[HighettMan]

Yes I think he has coached better this year.

But I think that there are ongoing issues like our forward line entries that after coaching for so long indicate that he is not the answer.

Development of youth was meant to have been a key reason of why he was appointed.

I look at our youth at Sandi and in the seniors over his tenure and see little that strikes me as a great developer of young talent.

Marshall is now exciting everyone as a No 1 ruck. But was he groomed for that role at Sandi? No he was not. More we played him in that role in the seniors as all the ruckman apart from the inexperienced rookie Ali were out injured.

I thought ratten was the forward and transition coach. Must be no good either.
Regarding developing players, I think we have done agreat job albeit through adversity. I e. Marshall, battle, wilke, parker, patton, plus ongoing improvement from billings gresh, Steele etc. Etc

So Richo developed Wilkie?

Surely you jest? Wilkie ARRIVED with his skill set.
He has been good from day one at the club. Putting that down to Richo is far fetched.


Parker shows raw talent but needs to be developed and to learn team football. He has not yet been developed.

Marshall. Was not developed as a ruck. That he is pur No1 now is due to circumstance and not good development and coaching.

Battle. Yes good decision to play him down back when Carlisle went down.

It makes complete sense that all good outcomes are purely accidental.

[Crossy66]

The problems we see with our gameplan and our style are not new. Our back end of 2017 was as bad as the footy we are playing now.

The excuses regarding list management are just that...excuses!! How can a head coach not be part of the decision making on who he wants in his team?

We had already lost Ben McEvoy when Cho came on board. When Cho was appointed he spent a year at the club and was part of the decision to on trade Rhys Stanley. After Hickey was showing good signs as one of the leagues emerging ruckmen and approched the top 5 best rucks in the competition during 2016, Cho decided after a few games into 2017 that Longer was his preferred option.

I generally agree with his analysis on game day, but he's got this terribly wrong. Most Saints people who follows things a bit closer and who give a stuff would disagree. I'm sure Carey wouldn't worry too much if the Saints stay at between 14th to 9th on the ladder for the next five years.

The article is simplistic bs based on an outsiders views on the club. Carey was probably the best footballer (for value to team/leadership/ability to impact result/kicking accuracy/big game player) I have seen in 30 years but that doesn't mean he has credibility as a footy journo.

We have a bloke who is your modern day tall, strong, agile mid in the mould of a Fyfe, Mundy, Cripps etc..If Acres was allowed to play in the middle and develop his craft he could be one of the clubs most important players. Cho preferred Newnes, Ross, Dunstan and also Weller who would later be delisted rather than play Blake Acres each and every week in the middle. Apologists keep telling us that Blake is lazy. Give it a rest.

Part of the problem is because the head coach is soft. Rooy hinted as such in mid 2018. It wasn't bad luck that Billings took 5 years to be a consistently good player. It wasn't just Paddy McCartin's fault that he wasn't fit enough or his diabetes that was to blame for him not getting up to speed with his fitness until preseason in 2019.

Our marquee matches over the last few years have been horrendous. Richo deflects the balme and points to poor skills, poor confidence and poor leadership. We all know that his defacto coaches and motivators were Roo, Joey, Shinner and Chips. Armo and Gears and Gilbo had been tainted and our young blokes had to listen to their leader blame them for 2018.

Lethlean was forced to appoint an external motivator and LEADER with credibity even though he's from a 'RugbyLeague' background.

Coach of the year...LOL

Most of this is subjective or just plain inaccurate, but it's how you feel, so fair enough

[Crossy66]

Richo was just all talk about reviewing things strongly while his opposition peers were shnitzelling their players...

Wayne is an outsider. Wayne didn't sit there each week listening to Richo's pressers.

Wayne Carey wouldn't have the same insight that Nick Riewoldt would have

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-gr ... dc1738bcee

All afl coaches have gone touchy feely, including Bucks and even RL is kissing players.
What makes wayne an outsider? The fact he doesnt work for saints? Does that make his insights invalid?
Btw, in your article, reiwoldt felt the players did give each other honest feedback therefore they were soft

[Yorkeys]

Former North Melbourne great Wayne Carey has revealed his predictions for the 2019 season: Richmond, Melbourne, West Coast and Adelaide to make the top four, while backing the Tigers to win their second premiership in three years.Carey believes it will be a tough year down at Moorabbin, labelling St Kilda the team that will disappoint and Alan Richardson as the coach most under the pump. Carey thinks his old team, the Kangaroos, will be the biggest surprise package of the 2019 season. Of course there is time for all that to happen, yes.

2018 predictions :WAYNE CAREY: PREMIERS: Sydney (flogged in EF2);RUNNERS-UP: Adelaide (12th)

Carey would not write the articles that appear under his name, would he?, just collect a royalty check for name use. If his predictions are a proxy for "knowing about the game" as opposed to being a phenomenal athlete, then his opinion could be questionable. However

If he had explained why the Saints "improvement" over 2018 was in no way due to Ratten and Lade, that would have been interesting. If he had given one example over 6 years x 20+ games a year where Richo's brilliant tactics had won a game then that would have caught attention as well. We missed the finals in 2016, why, percentage - i.e. did not score enough, but that problem's been fixed, hasn't it.

Yes we have beaten Gold Coast twice this year by an aggregate of a goal (that's one kick). Wonderful effort. If only we had played them twice last year. Richo is a great coach having a run of bad luck and that needs to be recognised no criticised, is that correct.

[Wayne42]

Moorabbin = Off Broadway.

Should have stayed at Seaford.

[WellardSaint]

AT : ALL RICHO LOVERS..say goodbye to him at the end of the season

Time will tell. In fact all will be revealed come season's end, I would think.

bring it on. Next year under a new coach we will have hope once again.

A new coach will teach us to win interstate, overseas, or at least be competitive.
and get the best out of our guys.
I have faith in that.

[Crossy66]

Yes I think he has coached better this year.

But I think that there are ongoing issues like our forward line entries that after coaching for so long indicate that he is not the answer.

Development of youth was meant to have been a key reason of why he was appointed.

I look at our youth at Sandi and in the seniors over his tenure and see little that strikes me as a great developer of young talent.

Marshall is now exciting everyone as a No 1 ruck. But was he groomed for that role at Sandi? No he was not. More we played him in that role in the seniors as all the ruckman apart from the inexperienced rookie Ali were out injured.

I thought ratten was the forward and transition coach. Must be no good either.
Regarding developing players, I think we have done agreat job albeit through adversity. I e. Marshall, battle, wilke, parker, patton, plus ongoing improvement from billings gresh, Steele etc. Etc

So Richo developed Wilkie?

Surely you jest? Wilkie ARRIVED with his skill set.
He has been good from day one at the club. Putting that down to Richo is far fetched.


Parker shows raw talent but needs to be developed and to learn team football. He has not yet been developed.

Marshall. Was not developed as a ruck. That he is pur No1 now is due to circumstance and not good development and coaching.

Battle. Yes good decision to play him down back when Carlisle went down.

It makes complete sense that all good outcomes are purely accidental.

Yep wilke was so good he wasnt picked up in 5 drafts and then only in the rookie draft. At that point the good judges didnt think he was worth picking up. Saints should rightly take kudos for that, same with Marshall. Interesting view that if it's bad it's the coaches fault, if it's good it was an accident

[saintsRrising]

Yes I think he has coached better this year.

But I think that there are ongoing issues like our forward line entries that after coaching for so long indicate that he is not the answer.

Development of youth was meant to have been a key reason of why he was appointed.

I look at our youth at Sandi and in the seniors over his tenure and see little that strikes me as a great developer of young talent.

Marshall is now exciting everyone as a No 1 ruck. But was he groomed for that role at Sandi? No he was not. More we played him in that role in the seniors as all the ruckman apart from the inexperienced rookie Ali were out injured.

I thought ratten was the forward and transition coach. Must be no good either.
Regarding developing players, I think we have done agreat job albeit through adversity. I e. Marshall, battle, wilke, parker, patton, plus ongoing improvement from billings gresh, Steele etc. Etc

So Richo developed Wilkie?

Surely you jest? Wilkie ARRIVED with his skill set.
He has been good from day one at the club. Putting that down to Richo is far fetched.


Parker shows raw talent but needs to be developed and to learn team football. He has not yet been developed.

Marshall. Was not developed as a ruck. That he is pur No1 now is due to circumstance and not good development and coaching.

Battle. Yes good decision to play him down back when Carlisle went down.

It makes complete sense that all good outcomes are purely accidental.

Yep wilke was so good he wasnt picked up in 5 drafts and then only in the rookie draft. At that point the good judges didnt think he was worth picking up. Saints should rightly take kudos for that, same with Marshall. Interesting view that if it's bad it's the coaches fault, if it's good it was an accident

If Richos magic wand was so good with Wilkie that in one pre_season he could turn him into the player he is then WTF happened with Richo and virtually every other player on our list?

As I also said above the Battle decision was a good one and he was trained and developed into his current role. His first few games you could see he was struggling with positioning and trying to mark when he should have been spoiling. Richo gets a ruck from me for this.

But to state that Richo developed Wilkie to me is far fetched and does not bear witness to what was seen in the preseason and early games. Credit to me goes to Wilkie and whomever his coaches last season were. From day one he looked an ecperienced and settled player. Like say Harry Taylor was at the Cats a mature recruit that came in and had everyone scratching their heads as to why he had not been picked up earlier.

For Wilkie I credit our recruiters and not Richo.

For Battles form at chb I am happy to credit Richo as this was a clear plan over the preseason and you can see the work put into him as he has changed how he plays.

[Crossy66]

I guess it depends on how you view our list .
Personally I think we are a couple of gun mids away from being a top 4 contender next year, so by extension, overall, development has been ok, although the list is unbalanced
Last week we had 7 or 8 of our best 22 unavailable and that has been the story of our season.
As far as individual player development is concerned, success kudos doesnot go to any one person nor does failure. Ultimately it's up to the player to seize the opportunity, some do some dont.
Blaming or lauding one person for an outcome is not how clubs operate.

[Annoyedsaint]

Longest serving coach to never coach a final if we don’t make it this year.....which is more than likely.
Game. Set. Match.

[Scollop]

I must say that I truly admire how Richo got away with 2018. The CEO and the coach are The untouchables.

Carey wants us to believe it's the list managers and recruiters fault from 10 years ago

No matter what sort of objective win loss statistics and pure numerical comparisons are made with all other VFL/AFL coaches in history, there will be club apologists that reckon 'the club knows best'.... the sycophants have an elephant's hide when it comes to any criticism of Richo...or perhaps I should say it's water off a ducks back

[Crossy66]

I must say that I truly admire how Richo got away with 2018. The CEO and the coach are The untouchables.

Carey wants us to believe it's the list managers and recruiters fault from 10 years ago

No matter what sort of objective win loss statistics and pure numerical comparisons are made with all other VFL/AFL coaches in history, there will be club apologists that reckon 'the club knows best'.... the sycophants have an elephant's hide when it comes to any criticism of Richo...or perhaps I should say it's water off a ducks back

The reality is that the club doesnt always know best . The hard part is working out whether it's the current mob or their predecessors. To my mind, since lethlean arrived, they have got most things right and I have more faith . Also think recruiting has been better since 2015.
Prior to that we got just about everything wrong.

[BarryGrogan]

Yes I think he has coached better this year.

But I think that there are ongoing issues like our forward line entries that after coaching for so long indicate that he is not the answer.

Development of youth was meant to have been a key reason of why he was appointed.

I look at our youth at Sandi and in the seniors over his tenure and see little that strikes me as a great developer of young talent.

Marshall is now exciting everyone as a No 1 ruck. But was he groomed for that role at Sandi? No he was not. More we played him in that role in the seniors as all the ruckman apart from the inexperienced rookie Ali were out injured.

I thought ratten was the forward and transition coach. Must be no good either.
Regarding developing players, I think we have done agreat job albeit through adversity. I e. Marshall, battle, wilke, parker, patton, plus ongoing improvement from billings gresh, Steele etc. Etc

My mail is, and I very rarely ever get actual goss from the club, that Ratten and Lade have very big roles this year.

Bigger roles than Cho when it comes to the on-field stuff.

Both have expressed professional frustration at how over-coached they've been, and how they're trying to coach some autonomy into them.

Special mention was made of Billings embracing their new style, and drifting around the ground on his own accord to find the ball.

The rest will take longer to coach it out of them.



So when people say "Cho has coached well this year", from what I've heard, he has. But basically, 'coaching well' is code for 'leave Ratten and Lade alone to fix the s*** that occurred under Cho's nose for the 5 years'.

[saintsRrising]

I guess it depends on how you view our list .
Personally I think we are a couple of gun mids away from being a top 4 contender next year,

I too think we area couple of good mids away from being a truly competitive side. Top 4 will take more than that.

IMO Richo is not a bad coach, but he is not a good coach. I can't see him ever being the difference.

[HighettMan]

The problems we see with our gameplan and our style are not new. Our back end of 2017 was as bad as the footy we are playing now.

The excuses regarding list management are just that...excuses!! How can a head coach not be part of the decision making on who he wants in his team?

We had already lost Ben McEvoy when Cho came on board. When Cho was appointed he spent a year at the club and was part of the decision to on trade Rhys Stanley. After Hickey was showing good signs as one of the leagues emerging ruckmen and approched the top 5 best rucks in the competition during 2016, Cho decided after a few games into 2017 that Longer was his preferred option.

I generally agree with his analysis on game day, but he's got this terribly wrong. Most Saints people who follows things a bit closer and who give a stuff would disagree. I'm sure Carey wouldn't worry too much if the Saints stay at between 14th to 9th on the ladder for the next five years.

The article is simplistic bs based on an outsiders views on the club. Carey was probably the best footballer (for value to team/leadership/ability to impact result/kicking accuracy/big game player) I have seen in 30 years but that doesn't mean he has credibility as a footy journo.

We have a bloke who is your modern day tall, strong, agile mid in the mould of a Fyfe, Mundy, Cripps etc..If Acres was allowed to play in the middle and develop his craft he could be one of the clubs most important players. Cho preferred Newnes, Ross, Dunstan and also Weller who would later be delisted rather than play Blake Acres each and every week in the middle. Apologists keep telling us that Blake is lazy. Give it a rest.

Part of the problem is because the head coach is soft. Rooy hinted as such in mid 2018. It wasn't bad luck that Billings took 5 years to be a consistently good player. It wasn't just Paddy McCartin's fault that he wasn't fit enough or his diabetes that was to blame for him not getting up to speed with his fitness until preseason in 2019.

Our marquee matches over the last few years have been horrendous. Richo deflects the balme and points to poor skills, poor confidence and poor leadership. We all know that his defacto coaches and motivators were Roo, Joey, Shinner and Chips. Armo and Gears and Gilbo had been tainted and our young blokes had to listen to their leader blame them for 2018.

Lethlean was forced to appoint an external motivator and LEADER with credibity even though he's from a 'RugbyLeague' background.

Coach of the year...LOL

Are you familiar with dot points?

[bigred]

So I take it we should be happy with 50%?

Jebus. Bunch of real winners.

We need a new coach. Simple as that.

[guitars4]

So I take it we should be happy with 50%?

Jebus. Bunch of real winners.

We need a new coach. Simple as that.

I'm with you mate I don't consider myself a a Richo basher but I think the winds of change are in the air . To be fair I think Richo is a good bloke & has done a reasonable job with the list we have but just doesn't have the presence or guile to be an AFL coach IMO only

[Crossy66]

So I take it we should be happy with 50%?

Jebus. Bunch of real winners.

We need a new coach. Simple as that.

Not at all, but poor development and recruiting in the later lyon years, the expansions teams and offloading players meant that whoever took over was on a hiding to nothing. Recruiting before 2015 was not great, so not all the coaches fault.
The core group are getting to the 70 + game sweet spot.

Either way, It sounds like we will have a new coach in 2020 unless we can get to atleast 12 wins.
But none of the likely suitors seem like much of an upgrade