Lyon Pulls out

[Toy Saint]

Saints probably would've won more flags if his dad pulled out

[saynta]

Saints probably would've won more flags if his dad pulled out

Good one.

[Scollop]

BUMP


So ...Voss is preferred over Lyon.

​The Lyon disciples will argue that Lyon pulled out and that it wasn't the other way around. Some people (even many Carlton supporters) would have preferred to go with Lyon because of his record versus Voss's but maybe the board weighed up some other criteria.

Maybe they didn't want a scandal and any possible dirty secrets coming out at the wrong time and negatively impacting their seasons in the future or negatively impacting their club and their sponsors...

Maybe it was purley for coaching reasons. Maybe he lacks what is required of a modern day people manager. Maybe Lyon has been found out and there's other characteristics that these coaching panels want in a coach. Who knows?!?

I watched a special a couple of nights ago from a documentary style feature from 2017 on Fox Footy - AFL channel 504. It was by Mike Sheahan on the Bulldogs GF win in 2016 and it had some great interviews with the people involved at the club and with the coach and the players. I hadn't watched it before as I got rid of pay tv for my son's last few years of high school from 2015 onwards and I only got Foxtel back in 2019.

Most people including the players and the assistants and the president reckon the single biggest influence on their club that year was Bevo. Peter Gordon had the highest praise for Beveridge and said some profound things about about what makes a great coach

He said that the club had been through a fair bit of turmoil (by the end of 2014 they'd lost their captain, sacked their coach and had the CEO also depart the club). He said he took advice from the panel that was appointed to find the right person as their new coach, but he knew he was confident they'd found the right person when he interviwed Luke Beveridge.

He specifically listed a few things that he thought were the right fit for his club and that he thought were essential to what makes a great coach. Gordon said that when Bevo arrived the players needed someone who not only had a great handle on the game of footy and game plans and a strategy to get the club back into finals but that the players needed someone who understood them and related to them on an emotional level. The other thing that stood out for me was what he said next

Gordon said that he thought a great coach is someone who "doesn't have tickets on himself". He's gotta understand that it's all about the players

I heard Nick Riewoldt last night on AFL360

Asked by co-host Gerard Whateley if successive nailbiting losses in 2009 and 2010 had broken the club’s resolve, Riewoldt admitted it had.

“It did. It broke us for a while as a group"

It didn't happen accidently. Ross Lyon should never have let the captain and his players feel that way. It was a cumualtive effect of a coach who blamed his players. He had a penchant for finding scapegoats. His divisive nature is a negative influence that isn't the ideal environment when you are trying to aim for a premiership

Mybe if Ross had what it took he should have realised that the captaincy needed to change at the start of 2011. If that's how Roo felt as the captain, how the hell were we ever going to try and challenge again or get close?

I kept thinking about what Gordon said and I thought to myself maybe that's why Lyon never quite got the chocolates at Freo or at St Kilda. Maybe Ross Lyon has tickets on himself. He does keep telling everyone how good he is doesn't he!? Maybe he menatlly scarred the players (and made them feel solely responsible). Maybe there's something in his personality that is lacking as far as emotional empathy is concerned.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/ ... a56a5ca99a

Rooy to this day feels different to other retired stars of the game when he sits next to a player who has won a premeirship medallion. He admits it all the time. You can see the regret in his face and in his eyes

They interviewed Brad Johnson on the docco and what I found really interesting was his answer when he was asked, did he feel unfulfilled or that something was missing in his footy career because he hadn't won a premiership. I was surprised the way he confidently answered the question and he seemed genuinely content. I know that losing 3 prelim finals is different to losing Grand Finals for our players, but everytime you hear BJ or Dal or Kosi or Nick Riewoldt speak about the lost opportunity, you can hear the anguish in their voices. They'd prefer not to think about or talk about those matches

It seems that the collateral damage to our club and to the St Kilda players from the legacy of Ross Lyon has been a lesson that other clubs have not ignored

[saynta]

This.

"I heard Nick Riewoldt last night on AFL360

Asked by co-host Gerard Whateley if successive nailbiting losses in 2009 and 2010 had broken the club’s resolve, Riewoldt admitted it had."


“It did. It broke us for a while as a group"

It didn't happen accidently. Ross Lyon should never have let the captain and his players feel that way. It was a cumualtive effect of a coach who blamed his players. He had a penchant for finding scapegoats. His divisive nature is a negative influence that isn't the ideal environment when you are trying to aim for a premiership

I kept thinking about what Gordon said and I thought to myself maybe that's why Lyon never quite got the chocolates at Freo or at St Kilda. Maybe Ross Lyon has tickets on himself. He does keep telling everyone how good he is doesn't he!? Maybe he menatlly scarred the players (and made them feel solely responsible). Maybe there's something in his personality that is lacking as far as emotional empathy is concerned."




HE then threw a match against the swans, retired 3 or 4 players without telling them, then walked out the door without telling the saints.

Bit like us and the French but on a much smaller scale.

That little incident at Freo also upset the girls and the wok brigade at the brown baggers.

Lyon pulled out of the Carlton gig? Pull the other leg ffs. He was never a chance and the turd knew it too.

[Sanctorum]

BUMP


So ...Voss is preferred over Lyon.

​The Lyon disciples will argue that Lyon pulled out and that it wasn't the other way around. Some people (even many Carlton supporters) would have preferred to go with Lyon because of his record versus Voss's but maybe the board weighed up some other criteria.

Maybe they didn't want a scandal and any possible dirty secrets coming out at the wrong time and negatively impacting their seasons in the future or negatively impacting their club and their sponsors...

Maybe it was purley for coaching reasons. Maybe he lacks what is required of a modern day people manager. Maybe Lyon has been found out and there's other characteristics that these coaching panels want in a coach. Who knows?!?

I watched a special a couple of nights ago from a documentary style feature from 2017 on Fox Footy - AFL channel 504. It was by Mike Sheahan on the Bulldogs GF win in 2016 and it had some great interviews with the people involved at the club and with the coach and the players. I hadn't watched it as I got rid of pay tv for my son's last few years of high school from 2015 onwards and I only got Foxtel back in 2019.

Most people including the players and the assistants and the president reckon the single biggest influence on their club that year was Bevo. Peter Gordon had the highest praise for Beveridge and said some profound things about about what makes a great coach

He said that the club had been through a fair bit of turmoil (by the end of 2014 they'd lost their captain, sacked their coach and had the CEO also depart the club). He said he took advice from the panel that was appointed to find the right person as their new coach, but he knew he was confident they'd found the right person when he interviwed Luke Beveridge.

He specifically listed a few things that he thought were the right fit for his club and that he thought were essential to what makes a great coach. Gordon said that when Bevo arrived the players needed someone who not only had a great handle on the game of footy and game plans and a strategy to get the club back into finals but that the players needed someone who understood them and related to them on an emotional level. The other thing that stood out for me was what he said next

Gordon said that he thought a great coach is someone who "doesn't have tickets on himself". He's gotta understand that it's all about the players

I heard Nick Riewoldt last night on AFL360

Asked by co-host Gerard Whateley if successive nailbiting losses in 2009 and 2010 had broken the club’s resolve, Riewoldt admitted it had.

“It did. It broke us for a while as a group"

It didn't happen accidently. Ross Lyon should never have let the captain and his players feel that way. It was a cumualtive effect of a coach who blamed his players. He had a penchant for finding scapegoats. His divisive nature is a negative influence that isn't the ideal environment when you are trying to aim for a premiership

I kept thinking about what Gordon said and I thought to myself maybe that's why Lyon never quite got the chocolates at Freo or at St Kilda. Maybe Ross Lyon has tickets on himself. He does keep telling everyone how good he is doesn't he!? Maybe he menatlly scarred the players (and made them feel solely responsible). Maybe there's something in his personality that is lacking as far as emotional empathy is concerned.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/ ... a56a5ca99a

I tend to agree with your analysis Scollop and go further to suggest that Ross Lyon is unlikely to get another senior gig in the AFL because he appears to consider himself a Messiah, as evident in the reports that he considered it below his dignity to go through the application protocols in pursuit of the senior coaching position at Lygon Street - "my coaching record speaks for itself" or words to that effect.

Today there is a far greater emphasis on a collegiate approach to coaching a football team, with all the components, including the senior players, involved in coming up with a successful game plan and game-day strategies.

I consider Brett Ratten to have first class people management skills and believe that there is an entirely different story to Luke Dunstan's falling out of favour with Ratten then what Luke has placed on record in his ill-considered interview on SEN about his departure from the Saints.

[Scollop]

I won't miss an opportunity to highlight what a failure Ross Lyon is ...

And was!!

The reason I started posting on Saintsational back in 2011 was because I was sick and tired of Lyon looking for excuses and pouring salt onto the wounds of our players. He blamed them for losses when you just don't do that when it comes to finals or any game for that matter

He scarred his players mentally and I could see that he was going to cause long term damage to our footy club. He was the one who fell short. He was the one he didn't play his role

[The Fireman]

If Voss instils any of his toughness into the cheats look out.

[Scollop]

What happened against The Bulldogs in the prelim?

Wasn't Voss in charge of the midfield at Port Adelaide?

[Wayne42]

What happened against The Bulldogs in the prelim?

Wasn't Voss in charge of the midfield at Port Adelaide?

Shhhh, Kingsley might have been a better choice.

As it is Kingsley has been the bridesmaid at both Carlton and Collingwood, he must have a fly in his ointment.

[Waltzing St Kilda]

Lots of vitriol here about Lyon, St Kilda's second most succesful coach.

Nineteen consecute wins in a season. Players who adore him. A toe-poke and a cruel bounce (and a fair bit of illegal substances -- shhhhh) away from two premierships.

I fondly remember the Lyon era as days when it was thrilling to venture along to the Telstra Dome (or whatver it was called at the time) and see a team that well-drilled and relentless. Nothing like it since.

Would have been a much better choice as Carlton coach.

But Voss has been handed a gift platter and could easily make the finals anyway, masking that reality.

[B.M]

How does one instill toughness?!

[Wayne42]

Lots of vitriol here about Lyon, St Kilda's second most succesful coach.

Nineteen consecute wins in a season. Players who adore him. A toe-poke and a cruel bounce (and a fair bit of illegal substances -- shhhhh) away from two premierships.

I fondly remember the Lyon era as days when it was thrilling to venture along to the Telstra Dome (or whatver it was called at the time) and see a team that well-drilled and relentless. Nothing like it since.

Would have been a much better choice as Carlton coach.

But Voss has been handed a gift platter and could easily make the finals anyway, masking that reality.

Lyon is not the Carlton coach because he was too scared of the Process to go through it.

[Scollop]

Lots of vitriol here about Lyon, St Kilda's second most succesful coach.

Nineteen consecute wins in a season. Players who adore him. A toe-poke and a cruel bounce (and a fair bit of illegal substances -- shhhhh) away from two premierships.

You call it vitriol. I call it balance.

His game plan (and preference for safe defensive plays rather than kicking winning scores) meant that there were always excuses and bad luck stories and we were always a toe poke or a bad bounce away from victory. Instead of the tyrant taking responsibility he'd blame the toe poke or one of his players (or a few of them) for our losses when it counted most.

Message to Ross Lyon and the "In Ross we Trust" disciples: Stick your 19 wins in a row you know where. Home and away wins don't count for much in the long term for the health and prosperity and sustainability of our football club

As far as players adoring Lyon...Big deal!! Do sect members adore their leaders? Does a child adore it's parent who might be a tyrant? In extreme cases, does a child love their parent even if the parent is abusive?

You can make assumptions and accusations as we all did regarding ‘illegal substances’ …After all... they did employ Dank and Charters down at Geelong didn't they?

But we were angels when it came to supplements? Maybe they beat us because Lyon’s game plan allowed them to beat us.

All AFL clubs got a wake up call when Essendon were found out.

Max Rooke and Cam Mooney were’nt alone in looking like Mr Olympia. I remember what Dal, Roo, Goddard, Chips and a few others looked like in 2007-2011 and they resembled rugby players more than they did AFL players

Their faces and bone structure in their skulls and even their body shape had changed dramatically from years before. From 2014/15 onwards they all started looking like 'clean' athletes and stopped looking like the Hulk

[Teflon]

Lots of vitriol here about Lyon, St Kilda's second most succesful coach.

Nineteen consecute wins in a season. Players who adore him. A toe-poke and a cruel bounce (and a fair bit of illegal substances -- shhhhh) away from two premierships.

I fondly remember the Lyon era as days when it was thrilling to venture along to the Telstra Dome (or whatver it was called at the time) and see a team that well-drilled and relentless. Nothing like it since.

Would have been a much better choice as Carlton coach.

But Voss has been handed a gift platter and could easily make the finals anyway, masking that reality.

Yep great post and at last some semblance of balance.
I just love these part time psychologists “maybe Ross blamed them too much......then maybe that scarred them....then maybe that affected the culture.....then maybe Ross was in Wuhan late Dec 2019”

Honestly it’s just laugh out loud made up BS from muppets who were not in the inner circle.

As you rightly point out - multiple club players and champions love Lyon and I too remember going to the footy through 09 expecting to win ....that’s never happened at the scale it did under Lyon and all these part time psychology wankers weren’t whingeing when we were 19-0

Lyons finished IMO as an AFL coach because I suspect the games past him tbh
Carlton could not organise a piss up in a brewery and he’s not coaching there because they are a rabble - Sayers rings him up to say he’s got the gig ....but hadn’t discussed it with his Board????? WTF??

And I am far from solved on Michael Voss as a coach - probably the best mid of the modern era Voss....but remain unconvinced he has it between the ears to coach and ironically I’m still making up my mind on Ratten which is why next year is make or break time for Brett.

IF Clarkson wants to stay in Melbourne he looms large IMO and I hear doesn’t reside all that far from Moorabbin ....nice little lifestyle and with Rath, Roughy and now Carrol ....feels like the band getting back together...

He’s no Ross Lyon Alistair....but he’ll do ....

[saynta]

Lots of vitriol here about Lyon, St Kilda's second most succesful coach.

Nineteen consecute wins in a season. Players who adore him. A toe-poke and a cruel bounce (and a fair bit of illegal substances -- shhhhh) away from two premierships.

I fondly remember the Lyon era as days when it was thrilling to venture along to the Telstra Dome (or whatver it was called at the time) and see a team that well-drilled and relentless. Nothing like it since.

Would have been a much better choice as Carlton coach.

But Voss has been handed a gift platter and could easily make the finals anyway, masking that reality.

Yep great post and at last some semblance of balance.
I just love these part time psychologists “maybe Ross blamed them too much......then maybe that scarred them....then maybe that affected the culture.....then maybe Ross was in Wuhan late Dec 2019”

Honestly it’s just laugh out loud made up BS from muppets who were not in the inner circle.

As you rightly point out - multiple club players and champions love Lyon and I too remember going to the footy through 09 expecting to win ....that’s never happened at the scale it did under Lyon and all these part time psychology wankers weren’t whingeing when we were 19-0

Lyons finished IMO as an AFL coach because I suspect the games past him tbh
Carlton could not organise a piss up in a brewery and he’s not coaching there because they are a rabble - Sayers rings him up to say he’s got the gig ....but hadn’t discussed it with his Board????? WTF??

And I am far from solved on Michael Voss as a coach - probably the best mid of the modern era Voss....but remain unconvinced he has it between the ears to coach and ironically I’m still making up my mind on Ratten which is why next year is make or break time for Brett.

IF Clarkson wants to stay in Melbourne he looms large IMO and I hear doesn’t reside all that far from Moorabbin ....nice little lifestyle and with Rath, Roughy and now Carrol ....feels like the band getting back together...

He’s no Ross Lyon Alistair....but he’ll do ....

"Muppets"."part time psychologists". "part time psychology wankers" Charming little fella aren't you.

[B.M]

You keep mentioning we were 19-0

Shouldn’t that mean we probably should’ve won the flag?!

[saynta]

You keep mentioning we were 19-0

Shouldn’t that mean we probably should’ve won the flag?!

Should have, could have, would gave if the Tosser Flosser had put Ball back on the ground.

[Scollop]

Fox Footy and Kayo have been playing the best grannies in VFL/AFL (as voted by viewers I think) and the 2009 GF is one of them

I watched the first half and most of the third quarter (again…after enduring it some years back when these sort of debates first started on sainsational) and my opinion is no different. It was a typical final in wet weather that had many lead changes. We were not dominating the play by any stretch for any extended period of time and neither were the Cats.

The Cats started the match with the first 3 goals.* Was this symbolic of Ross Lyon coached teams? Anyhow…the game unfolds and everyone has different views, but you have try and watch the game as a neutral observer without listening to ( or being brainwashed ) by the excuses from a losing coach. There were key moments and there were acts of brilliance and bravery and there were errors..but the game was there to be won in that second half and especially in that last quarter.

Which team would you prefer to be at 3 quarter time? The team in front by 7 points or the team that was behind?

Typically (for Ross Lyon coached teams in finals) it was us doing the chasing and the other team seemed to kick their goals cleaner and with more of a strategy rather than our scrappy goals. There was only 1 really bad miss in the first half and that was the snap from Schneider early in the first quarter. We kicked a fair few points but this was a wet day and we had snaps and rushed behinds in the second quarter as well as the set shot miss from Milney

It was a tight first half and Geelong were in front by 2 goals with less than 90 seconds to go in the second quarter. They were the better team, even if they did get that easy goal by Hawkins which was gifted to them by Zac Dawson and which was also an incorrect decision by the goal umpire and the field umpires. We scrambled the ball forward and got TWO late goals courtesy of a toe poke off the ground by Kosi and a payback goal by the umps. They paid a free in the goal square against Milburn for demonstrative conduct towards an umpire (just so every one would feel like the result was not going to be affected by the Hawkins error).

The commentators kept highlighting our dominance for inside 50’s in the first 3 quarters but this was a misleading stat, because they weren’t clean i50’s. The misses from Milne and McQualter and Schneids in that first half were bad but they weren’t catastrophic and no different to any other game where these things happens regularly.

The third quarter was brutal with contest after contest and at one stage there was no score for about ten minutes with both teams struggling to get clear inside 5o entries. Scores were tied or close to tied for most of the quarter and we just managed to get a late goal and get our noses in front.

St Kilda were 7 points up at 3 quarter time.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/2 ... 90926.html

As brutal as it was and as tight as it was, you knew that smothers and tackles and defensive play wasn’t going to be the difference. You knew that Jason Blake was a very very slim chance of being the match winner. You knew in the end that the winner would be the team who was better drilled in scoring goals and brave enough to continue trying to score.

I didn’t bother watching the last quarter. I know which team did not score and I know which team scored 3 goals

*they also kicked the last 3 of the match

[Waltzing St Kilda]

I agree. Lyon made mistakes, lots of them. The ones in the 2009 GF really sting.

But all coaches make mistakes. Alan Jeans made mistakes.

Nevertheless, if you focus instead for a moment on what he did right, you'll recall, for instance, the weeks after what was arguably the best home and away game of all time -- St Kilda v Geelong 2009.

St Kilda came up against Adelaide and the BUlldogs, and rather than falling in a heap mafter the Geelong classic match, they backed it up with two extraordinary games of "full court press". The Crows in particular were absolutely bamboozled. Couldn't get it out of their defensive 50.

I've never seen that level of tactical brilliance from a St Kilda coach before or since.

[Scollop]

The Crows were a team on the slide. They had poor years in 2010 and 2011

[Wayne42]

Ross Lyon =
3 x failed Grand Final Coach.
1 x Coach Selection Process avoider.

What's not to love.

[samoht]

Ross Lyon =
3 x failed Grand Final Coach.
1 x Coach Selection Process avoider.

What's not to love.

Didn't he also take a grand finalist one year to a 0-10 start the very next year?
That is some feat!

I couldn't believe one game vs Essendon, when the Essendon coach at the time parked 2 quick players side by side forward of centre (Davey and Lovett, maybe??)... and Lyon left them unattended and free to run and kill any chance we had of winning the game, despite us having 150 more team possessions and double the forward entries.
Those two Essendon players combined with Lyon's poor coaching ... we ended up losing that game.
I would have made the move to cover those 2 Essendon players - any other coach would have - it was so obvious.

[Wayne42]

Ross Lyon =
3 x failed Grand Final Coach.
1 x Coach Selection Process avoider.

What's not to love.

Didn't he also take a grand finalist one year to a 0-10 start the very next year?
That is some feat!

I couldn't believe one game vs Essendon, when the Essendon coach at the time parked 2 quick players side by side forward of centre (Davey and Lovett, maybe??)... and Lyon left them unattended and free to run and kill any chance we had of winning the game, despite us having 150 more team possessions and double the forward entries.
Those two Essendon players combined with Lyon's poor coaching ... we ended up losing that game.
I would have made the move to cover those 2 Essendon players - any other coach would have - it was so obvious.

The assistant coaches probably suggested that to Ross, maybe he just couldn't "process" the information.

[saynta]

Ross Lyon =
3 x failed Grand Final Coach.
1 x Coach Selection Process avoider.

What's not to love.

4 actually. 3 losses and a draw...all failures AFAIC.

[Wayne42]

Ross Lyon =
3 x failed Grand Final Coach.
1 x Coach Selection Process avoider.

What's not to love.

4 actually. 3 losses and a draw...all failures AFAIC.

Fair point.