Innovate or perish. Part 2

[bigcarl]

So in a side which struggles for potency up forward...

Scollop would like us to take the forward who just kicked over a third of our score and move him to the midfield because he wins contested footy, which incidently is a stat we have won the last 3 weeks in a row.

Owens over the past 3 weeks has attended 8 center bounces for 1 center clearance and has had a total of 2 general clearances over that time period. In that time he has had 11 score involvements.

Yes he isn't having the year he did last year, our forward line isn't getting the same representation, our opponents actually know who he is and our midfield hasn't delivered the ball well but based on everything I can see.... keep the dangerous, hard to match up player up forward please.

Fair points, but let’s also acknowledge that we are talking about one of the worst midfields in the competition - a fact that surely can’t be lost on the powers that be.

I think it would have been worth at least a try while our season was alive, particularly with Crouch unavailable and with Steele a shadow of the player he was two seasons ago (for whatever reason).

Sadly that ship has now sailed, so we move on. Hopefully the addition of Crouch and Clark can lift our midfield from well below average to maybe just average.

[Teflon]

Lots of talk lately re our woes is it coaching ? Lack of talent? (probably bit of both is the beige reality) that said I thought N Buckley said it nicely this week on Fox when asked what the results might be if Fly swapped with Lyon…his thoughts were….Lyon would go considerably better with Pies and Fly considerably worse coaching Saints….think he might think our list is a little bit s**t

[nostalgicsaint]

Lots of talk lately re our woes is it coaching ? Lack of talent? (probably bit of both is the beige reality) that said I thought N Buckley said it nicely this week on Fox when asked what the results might be if Fly swapped with Lyon…his thoughts were….Lyon would go considerably better with Pies and Fly considerably worse coaching Saints….think he might think our list is a little bit s**t

Agree with Bucks.

[SinCitySainter]

Lots of talk lately re our woes is it coaching ? Lack of talent? (probably bit of both is the beige reality) that said I thought N Buckley said it nicely this week on Fox when asked what the results might be if Fly swapped with Lyon…his thoughts were….Lyon would go considerably better with Pies and Fly considerably worse coaching Saints….think he might think our list is a little bit s**t

I have said continually that it isn't an either/or situation.
Our list needs a serious overhaul as does our game plan.

Buckley has made one of the least inciteful statements about football I have ever heard.
Talk about stating the bleeding obvious, no one doubts Collingwood have a better list than St Kilda at this moment in time.
Basically, he has asked would Ross perform better with better players and would Fly perform worse with worse players.
It doesn't take a genius to answer that question.

The more pertinent and harder to answer question is would Collingwood perform better under Ross and would St Kilda perform better under Fly?
I notice he didn't try to answer that much curlier one?

[St Dave]

Owens was a pretty highly rated contested ball player as a forward moving up to stoppages around the ground last year, so I think it is just disappointing that it seems he is playing more as a permanent forward and working in contests in the forwards 50.

The more I think about it, maybe this is a symptom of our significantly poorer forward line rather than anything to do with the midfield. It is hard to think of anyone up front who is performing even at the same level they were last year, and with Butler and Higgins out we are pretty short on forwards that would allow for Owens to get further up the ground.

Even including 3 in the last game he is only averaging 1.2 goals a game, so he isn't exactly blowing anyone away as a forward, so we can only hope that as players come back in we can get the best out of him again

[B.M]

Didn’t we beat Collingwood

[Yorkeys]

Lots of talk lately re our woes is it coaching ? Lack of talent? (probably bit of both is the beige reality) that said I thought N Buckley said it nicely this week on Fox when asked what the results might be if Fly swapped with Lyon…his thoughts were….Lyon would go considerably better with Pies and Fly considerably worse coaching Saints….think he might think our list is a little bit s**t

I have said continually that it isn't an either/or situation.
Our list needs a serious overhaul as does our game plan.

Buckley has made one of the least inciteful statements about football I have ever heard.
Talk about stating the bleeding obvious, no one doubts Collingwood have a better list than St Kilda at this moment in time.
Basically, he has asked would Ross perform better with better players and would Fly perform worse with worse players.
It doesn't take a genius to answer that question.

The more pertinent and harder to answer question is would Collingwood perform better under Ross and would St Kilda perform better under Fly?
I notice he didn't try to answer that much curlier one?

Was one of the poorer On the Couch episodes. Brown mocking Max, being a smart arse; Lyon in disbelief Narm got pantsed; Buckley being faux humble trying to anoint Pendlebury. They look at the ladder and make superficial speculations. Brown is well up himself.

[Teflon]

Lots of talk lately re our woes is it coaching ? Lack of talent? (probably bit of both is the beige reality) that said I thought N Buckley said it nicely this week on Fox when asked what the results might be if Fly swapped with Lyon…his thoughts were….Lyon would go considerably better with Pies and Fly considerably worse coaching Saints….think he might think our list is a little bit s**t

I have said continually that it isn't an either/or situation.
Our list needs a serious overhaul as does our game plan.

Buckley has made one of the least inciteful statements about football I have ever heard.
Talk about stating the bleeding obvious, no one doubts Collingwood have a better list than St Kilda at this moment in time.
Basically, he has asked would Ross perform better with better players and would Fly perform worse with worse players.
It doesn't take a genius to answer that question.

The more pertinent and harder to answer question is would Collingwood perform better under Ross and would St Kilda perform better under Fly?
I notice he didn't try to answer that much curlier one?

Perhaps he’s also saying ….the coaching magic wand has less an impact ?? That might be the point
How has Lyons game plan been altered from Rd 3 against Pies to now ??? To throw it out??
I hear lots about “game plan is wrong” but it looked very good Rd 3
Very good against Bombers (that we shoulda put away)
Very good against GWS to kick last 6 ???
Is he changing the game plan hourly ??
I think it’s clear where bulk of the issues lie..

[Teflon]

Lots of talk lately re our woes is it coaching ? Lack of talent? (probably bit of both is the beige reality) that said I thought N Buckley said it nicely this week on Fox when asked what the results might be if Fly swapped with Lyon…his thoughts were….Lyon would go considerably better with Pies and Fly considerably worse coaching Saints….think he might think our list is a little bit s**t

I have said continually that it isn't an either/or situation.
Our list needs a serious overhaul as does our game plan.

Buckley has made one of the least inciteful statements about football I have ever heard.
Talk about stating the bleeding obvious, no one doubts Collingwood have a better list than St Kilda at this moment in time.
Basically, he has asked would Ross perform better with better players and would Fly perform worse with worse players.
It doesn't take a genius to answer that question.

The more pertinent and harder to answer question is would Collingwood perform better under Ross and would St Kilda perform better under Fly?
I notice he didn't try to answer that much curlier one?

Was one of the poorer On the Couch episodes. Brown mocking Max, being a smart arse; Lyon in disbelief Narm got pantsed; Buckley being faux humble trying to anoint Pendlebury. They look at the ladder and make superficial speculations. Brown is well up himself.

Brown is really a coque head of the highest
His pathetic attempt at insight is embarrassing
He’s also very lenient on Lions
Tosser

[Nick DalSanto Claus]

Brown is not the sharpest bull in the barn. He plays the role of the bumbling yokel so convincingly, you'd almost think it was real!

[Scollop]

Owens over the past 3 weeks has attended 8 center bounces for 1 center clearance

It sounds like you are arguing the point well that Owens hasn’t succeeded as a mid.

The only problem with your stats are that he wasn't actually in the centre as a mid. He was the ruckman

Easy to misrepresent isn’t it?

[Rubyjo]

takeaway,

Staying conservative in your thinking is not the answer to St Kilda improving.

Considering Brad Crouch as our 'best inside mid' is flawed. Windy was only in his second year, Sincs was only starting to be used in the middle and Steele was injured.

Crouch is fading just as Seb Ross is. He also played poorly in the final. That's where you're measured.

Hopefully Crouch is match fit soon and can help out, but he's not the future

I said Crouch was our best inside mid last year, hopefully he can reach that level for the rest of this year.

One final is no measurement, we would not have played in a final last year without Crouch. Subject to his knee being ok, he should be good for another 3-4 years.

With Crouch in there will still be plenty of opportunity for Owens to rotate in there, and that is what will most likely happen.

Plenty of time to churn players through the middle (and elsewhere), but have to be reasonably competitive or supporters like yourself will spit the dummy. Most likely we will not start showing some consistency, and look a real threat for a high ladder position until into 2026. Can you last that long?

I lived through the '80s. Saw Plugger, Winmar etc. at Waverley in the 91 and 92 finals. Went to 97 GF

Been a member 22 years. My son is an adult now and buys his own. He's been a member for 17 years straight. As I've said on multiple occasions over the last 10 years, I'll still be here when some of the employees and 'career' coaches are long gone

I am not disputing your history as a Saints supporter.

I just formed the above impression, after flipping through a few of the recent threads, where about every 3rd post was a Scollop post, 80% or so being anti Ross. Your posting volume, whilst normally quite regular, exploded exponentially, and to me a lot of them didn't make much sense.

Good to hear you reckon you can last, maybe pacing yourself a little bit might be an idea.

It's weird when people take over the forum and become the resident expert on all things St Kilda.

[nostalgicsaint]

Owens over the past 3 weeks has attended 8 center bounces for 1 center clearance

It sounds like you are arguing the point well that Owens hasn’t succeeded as a mid.

The only problem with your stats are that he wasn't actually in the centre as a mid. He was the ruckman

Easy to misrepresent isn’t it?

Peaks at Marshall's clearance numbers...

[spert]

A few things from that Collingwood game we won- the midfield were much more attacking, Windy played a more attacking game and got the ball out, and since his suspension, seems to have gone into his shell a bit and is now just defending and nullifying.
Nas got a lot of the ball and set up a lot of plays along half back, but now his poor physical defensive side is getting exposed and the opposition are putting time into him. Byrnes played a good link up game along the wings, now can hardly get a touch. Basic football skills were better in that game- also we lost Henry who gave the forward half some life, so we have effectively lost three good run and carry players with Wood having ordinary form before and after injury, and Byrnes totally out of form, but hopefully Henry will be better this week.
Bringing Jones back in in for that role, was a desperation move, but he doesn't quite seem to be doing the job, and Clark is a bit slow and not quite back to his form of a few years ago, but Lyon in desperation may bring him back, though I would like to see Hastie get more senior time doing what Byrnes had been doing along the wings.

[Otiman]

I don't think Collingwood have a better list.

They have a few gun players and the rest of the list average or below ours.

How many of their players would get a game in our 22?

The "few gun players" is a massive difference though. You only need 2 or 3, but they need to be league leaders in their area.

[Teflon]

I don't think Collingwood have a better list.

They have a few gun players and the rest of the list average or below ours.

How many of their players would get a game in our 22?

The "few gun players" is a massive difference though. You only need 2 or 3, but they need to be league leaders in their area.

OMG last years Premiership side doesn’t have a better list than ours?
Honestly mate start reading what you type ..

Hill, Maynard, Moore, Daicos x2, Sidebottom, Pendles , DeGoey, Elliott, Mihochek, Quaynor, Crisp….even great users like Lipinski (who kicks goals) would walk into our line up
Give yourself an uppercut ffs

[Teflon]

Not sure if this great analysis from Joey has been posted - apologies if so. Dispels a lot of shyte brain “run with the pack” thinking


https://apple.news/AObYSdXYNSbmp42TxrZSpyw

[meher baba]

So Joey seems basically to be saying that our defence and running half backs are pretty good and our midfield moves the ball forward ok, but our forward line is pretty crap. Especially in the absence of quality smalls like Higgins, Butler and Gresham.

I agree with all that, but wasn’t that pretty close to where we were at under Ratts? I’ll acknowledge that we were then more vulnerable to being attacked through the middle than we are now. Lyon has definitely tightened that area up: it has always been one of his strengths. But, at the same time, our attacking potency has diminished

I’m a strong supporter of the concept that improvement is a journey and can involve some steps backwards. But I’m finding it hard to see where the path we are supposedly on is taking us right now.

And excuses like “we’ve got a crap list” simply don’t cut it for me. If you look at the top teams of the moment, we have either defeated them or come close to defeating them since Lyon took charge.

But, over the past month or so, the team seems to have collectively lost its confidence. That’s always a bad sign for a coach. It’s what happened under Ratten in the second half of 2022. Lyon is a harder nut than Ratts and is capable of getting on top of things again. But he needs to send a message. Surely moving Harves to a different role or moving him on altogether is the way to go. I realise it would be like killing Bambi. But the forward line is where the main problems are right now. Higgins coming back will help, but it’s not enough.

[SaintWiki]

So Joey seems basically to be saying that our defence and running half backs are pretty good and our midfield moves the ball forward ok, but our forward line is pretty crap. Especially in the absence of quality smalls like Higgins, Butler and Gresham.

I agree with all that, but wasn’t that pretty close to where we were at under Ratts? I’ll acknowledge that we were then more vulnerable to being attacked through the middle than we are now. Lyon has definitely tightened that area up: it has always been one of his strengths. But, at the same time, our attacking potency has diminished

I’m a strong supporter of the concept that improvement is a journey and can involve some steps backwards. But I’m finding it hard to see where the path we are supposedly on is taking us right now.

And excuses like “we’ve got a crap list” simply don’t cut it for me. If you look at the top teams of the moment, we have either defeated them or come close to defeating them since Lyon took charge.

But, over the past month or so, the team seems to have collectively lost its confidence. That’s always a bad sign for a coach. It’s what happened under Ratten in the second half of 2022. Lyon is a harder nut than Ratts and is capable of getting on top of things again. But he needs to send a message. Surely moving Harves to a different role or moving him on altogether is the way to go. I realise it would be like killing Bambi. But the forward line is where the main problems are right now. Higgins coming back will help, but it’s not enough.

I agree that the players appear to have lost their confidence lately but surely that can be explained by so many important players missing or returning without full match fitness, but your observation that we are close to where we were at under Ratts needs clarification, as Ratts wasn't blooding so many kids in the senior list at once. I'm not saying that the Ross Lyon coaching crew are making perfect calls all the time but it must be very difficult to do a big rebuild and keep us supporters and the sponsors happy week in and week out - even though it's desirable to do so.

[Teflon]

So Joey seems basically to be saying that our defence and running half backs are pretty good and our midfield moves the ball forward ok, but our forward line is pretty crap. Especially in the absence of quality smalls like Higgins, Butler and Gresham.

I agree with all that, but wasn’t that pretty close to where we were at under Ratts? I’ll acknowledge that we were then more vulnerable to being attacked through the middle than we are now. Lyon has definitely tightened that area up: it has always been one of his strengths. But, at the same time, our attacking potency has diminished

I’m a strong supporter of the concept that improvement is a journey and can involve some steps backwards. But I’m finding it hard to see where the path we are supposedly on is taking us right now.

And excuses like “we’ve got a crap list” simply don’t cut it for me. If you look at the top teams of the moment, we have either defeated them or come close to defeating them since Lyon took charge.

But, over the past month or so, the team seems to have collectively lost its confidence. That’s always a bad sign for a coach. It’s what happened under Ratten in the second half of 2022. Lyon is a harder nut than Ratts and is capable of getting on top of things again. But he needs to send a message. Surely moving Harves to a different role or moving him on altogether is the way to go. I realise it would be like killing Bambi. But the forward line is where the main problems are right now. Higgins coming back will help, but it’s not enough.

No. Again simple and wrong
Joey didn’t say “forward line us crap” what he said was
1. We move the ball from back half as good as anyone
2. Defence is top 6 league (don’t think it was that under Ratten
3. Forward of centre (not just forward line) we break down and that’s primarily because
4. Our midfield is poor
5. Into forward 50 our skill level AND execution (Joeys words) break down
6. Magnifying that is we have been (without Higgins, Butler etc) been kicking to younger players
7. Our better ball users are all HB …it’s no surprise this part of our game is good
That’s lack of maturity and talent (midfield) right now
Stop with the boorish narrative that it’s Lyons game plan. I bet if you asked Lyon he’d tell you it was the sane game plan he used to beat Pies Rd 3
It ain’t hard

[SaintPav]

So Joey seems basically to be saying that our defence and running half backs are pretty good and our midfield moves the ball forward ok, but our forward line is pretty crap. Especially in the absence of quality smalls like Higgins, Butler and Gresham.

I agree with all that, but wasn’t that pretty close to where we were at under Ratts? I’ll acknowledge that we were then more vulnerable to being attacked through the middle than we are now. Lyon has definitely tightened that area up: it has always been one of his strengths. But, at the same time, our attacking potency has diminished

I’m a strong supporter of the concept that improvement is a journey and can involve some steps backwards. But I’m finding it hard to see where the path we are supposedly on is taking us right now.

And excuses like “we’ve got a crap list” simply don’t cut it for me. If you look at the top teams of the moment, we have either defeated them or come close to defeating them since Lyon took charge.

But, over the past month or so, the team seems to have collectively lost its confidence. That’s always a bad sign for a coach. It’s what happened under Ratten in the second half of 2022. Lyon is a harder nut than Ratts and is capable of getting on top of things again. But he needs to send a message. Surely moving Harves to a different role or moving him on altogether is the way to go. I realise it would be like killing Bambi. But the forward line is where the main problems are right now. Higgins coming back will help, but it’s not enough.

Agree with this.

Notwithstanding that there are definitely issues with the list, particularly in the midfield, there appear to be coaching issues as well, particularly around team selection, game day tactics and player development amongst others.

The forward line set up is a dog’s breakfast so maybe we have coaching challenges across the board including the assistants. Not sold on Harves. Goddard has no experience as well and this appointment should have been scrutinised a lot more. Hardly raised an eyebrow on here but not with me.

Key staff appointments across the board are also concerning.

Communication and messaging to fans and the wider football world could be improved. Trust is not a useful strategy.

More questions than answers but a whole lot better than the game of mates people want to play like it proves anything.

[Otiman]

I'd like to see the big list of ins and outs at the club after Lyon's entry.

[Teflon]

So Joey seems basically to be saying that our defence and running half backs are pretty good and our midfield moves the ball forward ok, but our forward line is pretty crap. Especially in the absence of quality smalls like Higgins, Butler and Gresham.

I agree with all that, but wasn’t that pretty close to where we were at under Ratts? I’ll acknowledge that we were then more vulnerable to being attacked through the middle than we are now. Lyon has definitely tightened that area up: it has always been one of his strengths. But, at the same time, our attacking potency has diminished

I’m a strong supporter of the concept that improvement is a journey and can involve some steps backwards. But I’m finding it hard to see where the path we are supposedly on is taking us right now.

And excuses like “we’ve got a crap list” simply don’t cut it for me. If you look at the top teams of the moment, we have either defeated them or come close to defeating them since Lyon took charge.

But, over the past month or so, the team seems to have collectively lost its confidence. That’s always a bad sign for a coach. It’s what happened under Ratten in the second half of 2022. Lyon is a harder nut than Ratts and is capable of getting on top of things again. But he needs to send a message. Surely moving Harves to a different role or moving him on altogether is the way to go. I realise it would be like killing Bambi. But the forward line is where the main problems are right now. Higgins coming back will help, but it’s not enough.

Agree with this.

Notwithstanding that there are definitely issues with the list, particularly in the midfield, there appear to be coaching issues as well, particularly around team selection, game day tactics and player development amongst others.

The forward line set up is a dog’s breakfast so maybe we have coaching challenges across the board including the assistants. Not sold on Harves. Goddard has no experience as well and this appointment should have been scrutinised a lot more. Hardly raised an eyebrow on here but not with me.

Key staff appointments across the board are also concerning.

Communication and messaging to fans and the wider football world could be improved. Trust is not a useful strategy.

More questions than answers but a whole lot better than the game of mates people want to play like it proves anything.

Yeah good analysis
Loads of questions
F’all actual substance or answers
Ignores Montagna analysis
Quality

[Scollop]

So Joey seems basically to be saying that our defence and running half backs are pretty good and our midfield moves the ball forward ok, but our forward line is pretty crap. Especially in the absence of quality smalls like Higgins, Butler and Gresham.

I agree with all that, but wasn’t that pretty close to where we were at under Ratts? I’ll acknowledge that we were then more vulnerable to being attacked through the middle than we are now. Lyon has definitely tightened that area up: it has always been one of his strengths. But, at the same time, our attacking potency has diminished

I’m a strong supporter of the concept that improvement is a journey and can involve some steps backwards. But I’m finding it hard to see where the path we are supposedly on is taking us right now.

And excuses like “we’ve got a crap list” simply don’t cut it for me. If you look at the top teams of the moment, we have either defeated them or come close to defeating them since Lyon took charge.

But, over the past month or so, the team seems to have collectively lost its confidence. That’s always a bad sign for a coach. It’s what happened under Ratten in the second half of 2022. Lyon is a harder nut than Ratts and is capable of getting on top of things again. But he needs to send a message. Surely moving Harves to a different role or moving him on altogether is the way to go. I realise it would be like killing Bambi. But the forward line is where the main problems are right now. Higgins coming back will help, but it’s not enough.

Agree with this.

Notwithstanding that there are definitely issues with the list, particularly in the midfield, there appear to be coaching issues as well, particularly around team selection, game day tactics and player development amongst others.

The forward line set up is a dog’s breakfast so maybe we have coaching challenges across the board including the assistants. Not sold on Harves. Goddard has no experience as well and this appointment should have been scrutinised a lot more. Hardly raised an eyebrow on here but not with me.

Key staff appointments across the board are also concerning.

Communication and messaging to fans and the wider football world could be improved. Trust is not a useful strategy.

More questions than answers but a whole lot better than the game of mates people want to play like it proves anything.

Yeah good analysis
Loads of questions
F’all actual substance or answers
Ignores Montagna analysis
Quality

I noticed you keep referring to his analysis of what's going wrong, but you continue to ignore what he offered up as s solution, especially the very first time he provided his thoughts (which was on Foxfooty's First Crack)

Joey is very good. With his media profile, he's also an unofficial ambassador for the St Kilda FC....so when he presented his analysis on AFL 360 he didn't say what he initially said on First Crack. Didn't want to seem to be criticising the coach too much

https://omny.fm/shows/fox-footy-podcast ... w-did-hawk (Have a listen from approx.36.30)

He says:"personnel is half of it." They can train up ...train so that you can be more confident with your leg drive and your handball"

[SaintPav]

Why anyone would be invested in one person is very strange and irrational.

Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket.

Weirdorama or what.