Believing in Ross?

[SainterK]

AFL is an evolving game...and tactics need to evolve....coaches need to evolve.

So you're now arguing that his had excuses for being woeful?

That may be the case, but it's irrelevant. He was woeful when he started. And he realised this, and made significant changes - including getting assistants that had a clue.

Lyon is not the messiah.

He was an ordinary coach. He snagged the best fitness dude in the history of world sport, and a brilliant assistant coach - and now we're in good nick.

What about SOS, he started with RL in his first season, did he have a clue?

And Mission was not the only medical/fitness appointment made in the last couple of years by RL, he has made this area a priority since he arrived, and we are now seeing the results of multiple changes

Silvagni does have a clue.



I mean seriously, Lyon has a game plan that involves a brilliant list of players who have been at the club for 5-10 years, being fully fit and healthy, and putting extreme pressure on our opposition.

WOW!!!! Genius!!

You once again underestimate managing to do all the above mentioned at the same time.

[rodgerfox]

it is Lyoin who will drop high profile players (Dal, Milne, Gram, Ball) if they are not adhering to the group ethos.

That's not entirely true.

Better brush up on your homework Joffaboy.

[Darrel Baldock]

I didn't really want to get into this because I think Fox is just being provocative and likes to get people outraged. You do, don't you Rog? But my friend (who has on occasion written good match reports), get this. Ordinary coaches do not attract brilliant assistants. Getting a good group of people together is a talent in itself .Quality attracts quality. You go to work for and with someone because the vision of that person makes you want to be part of their proposed future. The thing about Ross is that the vision he saw is now coming into being with the assistance of people of talent who share that vision.
He is not an ordinary coach taking advantage of great people to piggy back to the top, he's actually the leader of this extraordinary group.

[joffaboy]

I'd say there are about 50 people at the St Kilda footy club who would take umberidga at that comment.

It is in context of Lyon v any other STKFC head coach

When 'Ross' didn't have a fit list, and an assistant coach with ability - oddly we weren't 17-0.

Same with every single other coach in the history of the STKFC, with or without a fit list. And anyway our list is not fully fit.

[markp]

Anybody who is inferring Lyon is no good, is either an idiot or trolling.

Evidently it's a little from column A, and a little from column B.

[joffaboy]

That's not entirely true.

So by definition not entirely false

Better brush up on your homework Joffaboy.

Dont need to. Maybe you do RodgerFox.

[joffaboy]

Anybody who is inferring Lyon is no good, is either an idiot or trolling.

Evidently it's a little from column A, and a little from column B.

RF is no idiot. I think he is just having a bit of fun.

As we all are.

Who couldn't at a record 17-0.

Well done Ross Lyon. Heading to be the best coach of the Saints since Yabbie.

[rodgerfox]

I'd say there are about 50 people at the St Kilda footy club who would take umberidga at that comment.

It is in context of Lyon v any other STKFC head coach

Why are you using that context?

[joffaboy]

I'd say there are about 50 people at the St Kilda footy club who would take umberidga at that comment.

It is in context of Lyon v any other STKFC head coach

Why are you using that context?

Because it is contextual

And because of the OP and because of the position RL holds at the STKFC.

Isn't Rocket surgery RF.

[saintsRrising]

AFL is an evolving game...and tactics need to evolve....coaches need to evolve.

So you're now arguing that his had excuses for being woeful?.

No..for I have never said Lyon was woeful...for he has not been.

I have staed that it has taken hima while to fix all the problems...but unlike you do not expain that he could createa world in only 7 days!!!

You believe GT left us in great shape...

I believe that when GT was fired that we had quitea reasonable list but with many list flaws...and an inept football and conditioning department.

That may be the case, but it's irrelevant. He was woeful when he started. And he realised this, and made significant changes - including getting assistants that had a clue.

Lyon is not the messiah.

He was an ordinary coach. .

You are delusional.....

He snagged the best fitness dude in the history of world sport, and a brilliant assistant coach - and now we're in good nick.

and since when is snagging very good people a bad thing? IMO this is actuallya good thing.

The thing that you and GT FAIL to understand Rodge..is that success comes these days not through ONE individual..but theougha TEAM..whether that be off-fiefld (ie fooball department) or on-field.

While GT had the ego and madness to try and control ALL..Lyon sticks to what he is good at...and gets other who are good at what they do to do it.

Lyon, Drain, Misson etc etc.....is mucher better than GT way..

GT stated after the season started that Lyon did not what have what it took to be a coach...and you his awe struck acoloyte have sucked it up and are dishing it out to all and sundry...

[InkerSaint]

The descent into madness accelerates...

[bob__71]

If as RF states coaches make no difference, and all you have to do is have fit players. Why did recruiting Tudor make any difference.

If GT was in charge, he would have been bemoaning having Dawson in the side (probably insulted him by calling him a crab), and he would have rushed goose back in....because apparently he is the better player. He would never have had the balls to drop Luke Ball.

GT believed that he could have won without tactics, and he went close. But I will have to change my mind about one thing i never thought I would. I believe that in 2004/05 GT was in hindsight the biggest thing stopping us winning a flag.

[Moods]

RF said earlier on at the start of this thread, that if our stars go down then Ross's poor decisions would be highlighted (or words to that effect - I can't be bothered looking back and highlighting it)

Rodger - What are the poor decisions that Lyon has made, that we will all be ruing (sic) if a few stars go down? Can you be more specific? I think SR has asked you a few times on this thread and you appeared to have dodged this question.

[saintlee]

RF said earlier on at the start of this thread, that if our stars go down then Ross's poor decisions would be highlighted (or words to that effect - I can't be bothered looking back and highlighting it)

Rodger - What are the poor decisions that Lyon has made, that we will all be ruing (sic) if a few stars go down? Can you be more specific? I think SR has asked you a few times on this thread and you appeared to have dodged this question.

He doesn't have an answer to that question, thats why he's dodging it

[joffaboy]

Rodger - What are the poor decisions that Lyon has made, that we will all be ruing (sic) if a few stars go down? Can you be more specific? I think SR has asked you a few times on this thread and you appeared to have dodged this question.

[saintsRrising]

I believe that in 2004/05 GT was in hindsight the biggest thing stopping us winning a flag.

That has been my view fora while...for the reasons I have expplained in depth.

We achieved what we did in spite of GT rather than due to him.

Our list relative to others of that time was superb....with the Lions on the decline. It was badly mismanged in a raft of areas..from trades to player conditioning...

Whereas now Lyon has to battle the Cats..labled by many as the best team in history.

[rodgerfox]

You believe GT left us in great shape...

Do I?

I believe that when GT was fired that we had quitea reasonable list but with many list flaws...and an inept football and conditioning department.

So do I.

And we still have flaws in our list. It's just that they aren't an issue because our guns and up and about.

[rodgerfox]

RF said earlier on at the start of this thread, that if our stars go down then Ross's poor decisions would be highlighted (or words to that effect - I can't be bothered looking back and highlighting it)

Rodger - What are the poor decisions that Lyon has made, that we will all be ruing (sic) if a few stars go down? Can you be more specific? I think SR has asked you a few times on this thread and you appeared to have dodged this question.

I assumed my point was obvious, but apparently I was wrong.

Having your good players up and going, hides any deficiencies you may have.

At this stage, we could have Kim Beazley or Ricky May (and he's dead!) coming off the bench and it would work.

However if Lenny or Roo were to go down, and Ricky and Kim had to play key roles for us - suddenly it would become apparent that we shouldn't have included them in the side.



I hope that clears things up.

[bob__71]

RF said earlier on at the start of this thread, that if our stars go down then Ross's poor decisions would be highlighted (or words to that effect - I can't be bothered looking back and highlighting it)

Rodger - What are the poor decisions that Lyon has made, that we will all be ruing (sic) if a few stars go down? Can you be more specific? I think SR has asked you a few times on this thread and you appeared to have dodged this question.

I assumed my point was obvious, but apparently I was wrong.

Having your good players up and going, hides any deficiencies you may have.

At this stage, we could have Kim Beazley or Ricky May (and he's dead!) coming off the bench and it would work.

However if Lenny or Roo were to go down, and Ricky and Kim had to play key roles for us - suddenly it would become apparent that we shouldn't have included them in the side.



I hope that clears things up.

I think it clears up your belief in individuals, and not in the team.

[barks4eva]

Rodger Fox you're a FAIR DINKUM MORON,


Lyon was a brilliant coach from day one,

not too mention he helped Sydney win a premiership,

He inherited a list in decline, thanks to the buffoonery of your hero, with abysmal drafting, recruiting and development,

when Lyon arrived he read out the riot act and wanted to know who was responsible for the mess and piss poor recruiting,

he set out from day one, saying this would take at least two seasons to address,

Ross Lyon is the best coach in the AFL, a real McCoy coach and thankfully the numbnut nuffie nonsense and amateur hour have been replaced with a fully professional football department,

All the shyte I copped on here for pointing out the bleeding obvious to dingbats such as yourself for years, while your hero was pissing our club up against a wall,

Finally we get a real coach who has completely turned the list around in just two years in quite remarkable fashion and you peer out from your foxhole with your latest installment of dong bonging drivel,

Rodger Flog you're a fair dinkum scrotum stroking, pole smoking, todger tugging, rodger rubbing, willy whipping, derriere dipping, johnson jangling, wrist wrangling, bone monkey,

You know SFA!

[meher baba]

rodgerfox is being deliberately provocative, but there is some truth in what he says about coaches not being the be all and end all.

What we have seen this year is many of our key players fit and playing out of their skins: Riewoldt, Kosi, Lenny, Milne, Joey, Gilbert, BJ, Gardi (for the most part), Dal (not quite at his best, but his best for a few years), Blake, Schneider, etc. This is really important: perhaps more important than game plans, training regimes, match day tactics and even team selections.

Securing Misson was obviously critical. This was to some extent serendipitous (I think his wife made a career move from Sydney to Melbourne), but Lyon's past connection was no doubt important in securing the guy ahead of other clubs.

I find it laughable that rodgerfox would try to suggest that Lyon isn't much of a coach. I reckon results speak for themselves.

But I also find it laughable that saintsRrising and B4E still try to peddle their nonsense that Lyon inherited a poor list. One of the reasons that Butterss and co. sacked GT was because they believed he had been handed an unbeatable list on a platter and should have been able to win a premiership or two with it.

And I reckon that, on the whole, they were right about this. The only significant thing wrong with our list in 2006 that has been fixed now was the lack of quality ruckmen. There weren't any other obvious "holes" that weren't the result of players like Kosi and Ball being continually hampered by injury.

The likes of Dawson, Schneider, etc. are simply icing on the cake. The core of our list, put together in 2000-03, is the key to our success. If that group had been moved holus bolus from our list to that of, say, the Demons or Freo at the end of 2008, they would be up in the top 2 spots of the table and we'd be near the bottom.

[barks4eva]

and now me babble enters the fray,

FAIR DINKUM, if you had your way Lyon would have been sacked and replaced with Rendell after round 8 last season,

Another numbnut who knows SFA about football,

our list was flawed, slow and in decline in 2006,

and further compounding the mess, your hero who is on record as stating "fitness and conditioning staff are overrated" oversaw an entire football department,

is it any wonder the fitness of our players was brought into question,

AND that this has been a significant area that has been addressed since 2007,


the club was previously coached by an over paid buffoon who knows no more about football than the average numbskull on here,

and you had the temerity to call Lyon a dinosaur,

reading your opinions on football is nauseating at best,

FAIR DINKUM

[SydneySainter]

This coach is delivering the goods on a weekly basis. He is widely regarded by the football communtiy as being the modern day coach with superb tactical nous. We are unbeaten and absolutely smashing all comers. Yet you insist it is someone else who should take the credit?? The buck stops at the coach - he has put all this in place and he is steering the ship. And he is damn good driver!!

I've always said that coaches deserve little credit.

If we lose good players, we will lose games. Then suddenly Lyon will be a hack.

A coach has 3 jobs...

1) Get good players
2) Make sure they are fit and on the park
3) Make sure they watnt to try hard every week

That's it.

Once you get that, it does not matter one iota what your game plan is.

Some coaches want just a Plan A - such as Geelong. You just keep doing exactly what you do, and don't deviate at all. You just get so good at it that people can't match you. And if you do match you, then you get rolled.

West Coast also won a flag doing this. As did Hawthorn last year.

Sydney ditto. With a slight twist and semblance of a 'Plan B'.

Brisbane and all sides prior to them achieved success this way.


The game plans themselves were slightly different, some the same, and in the end irrelevant. The key thing was good players, mentally swtiched and physically fit.

These days, the coach doesn't control the fitness and doesn't manage the list.

He oversees the people running these areas.


I've never rated the influence of a coach that highly.

And in Lyon's case, I feel exactly the same way.

When we had good players missing, he was hopeless.
When we had dud assistants, he was hopeless.

Now suddenly we have the fittest list in the cost, and some astute assistant coaches - and he's a hero and a genius?

Please, some perspective would be nice.

So, you feel coach's are a tad over-rated?

Quite surprised your saying this as I remember making a comment in post quite a few months back in regards to our 04/05 seasons, saying I felt GT's influence to be quite incidental, as our list depth was that good. To which your response was (to which I can't quote because I can't be bothered finding that post) that you're perplexed that people still believe the whole "the side coached themselves" rubbish!

So, is our current squad coaching themselves because we have such a strong, fit list?

[bigred]

This thread is full of win.

[rodgerfox]

So, you feel coach's are a tad over-rated?

Yes. Although as I said, they have 3 main duties. Very important duties.

Quite surprised your saying this as I remember making a comment in post quite a few months back in regards to our 04/05 seasons, saying I felt GT's influence to be quite incidental, as our list depth was that good. To which your response was (to which I can't quote because I can't be bothered finding that post) that you're perplexed that people still believe the whole "the side coached themselves" rubbish!

In context, I was absolutely correct.

So, is our current squad coaching themselves because we have such a strong, fit list?

Definately. As much as any other experienced list does - in our case with the leaders we have, probably moreso.