Discussion re: the Saints 2009 peformance continued

[SainterK]

Not so much that I am wanting the debate to continue, but if it must, best to start a new thread as pointed out by another poster.

Last few posts on the subject....

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SainterK wrote:

Because he has, and quite strangely, compared 2009 with 2009?

Given that Roger is not comprehending why people think Ross is well equipped to coach the team to a grand final win, I thought this would be a good exercise for him to honestly evaluate where the team had grown and moved forward from the year previous.

Somehow, this became seperating the H&A and the finals series, but I want him to see the growth in the side under Ross Lyons direction for the year in it's entirety.

If he cannot see that the club is moving forwards, then that's fine, but I am still waiting to see his response.

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Rogerfox wrote:

No, you've misinterpreted what I wrote.

I started by saying 'it's not as simple as that'. Meaning, our H&A season was unbelievably good. However our finals series wasn't great - infact quite average really.

I see finals and H&A as vastly different kettles of fish. It's why we have a finals series after the H&A season and don't just hand the Cup over at the end of R22.

We saw some areas which were under scrutiny in 2005-2008 apparently addressed in 2009 throughout the H&A season - however when we got to the finals those same issues reared thair heads again.

Recruitment, depth, Milne, mental toughness, seclection, game day coaching etc.

To look at the 2009 as a whole compared to the 2008 season as a whole gives an inaccurate portrayal of where we're at.

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Moods wrote

Yes - we lost the GF by about a kick in conditions that don't suit us against a very good football team who were always going to be super hungry. At the start of 2009 no-one could see bar the hawks challenging them - especially the saints. INstead of improving the saints against all popular opinion, you claim we have gone backwards - I have not read one logical conclusion to how you came to this. Because Rooey was dominant in the finals? Because a couple of players struggled? Mate, they are finals - if every player stood up and played superbly, then we would have won the thing by 20 goals!

WE won two finals, against the best opposition, which is why they are finals. We fell just short in the big one. Anyone would think we went out in straight sets.

Yes I know, I know, that's settling for mediocrity blah blah blah. The way you're talking Rodger, you'd think we were barely competitive. The other 6 teams in the finals must have been absolutely hopeless

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rodgerfox wrote:

No, you've misinterpreted what I wrote.

I started by saying 'it's not as simple as that'. Meaning, our H&A season was unbelievably good. However our finals series wasn't great - infact quite average really.

I see finals and H&A as vastly different kettles of fish. It's why we have a finals series after the H&A season and don't just hand the Cup over at the end of R22.

We saw some areas which were under scrutiny in 2005-2008 apparently addressed in 2009 throughout the H&A season - however when we got to the finals those same issues reared thair heads again.

Recruitment, depth, Milne, mental toughness, seclection, game day coaching etc.

To look at the 2009 as a whole compared to the 2008 season as a whole gives an inaccurate portrayal of where we're at.

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SainterK wrote

It gives an entirely accurate portrayal of where the team is at, it just doesn't sit comfortably with you because it doesn't reflect your opinion.

I am surprised that you rate the finals series as average to be honest, I thought that you were big enough to give credit where due.

If you are beyond being impressed with the win against Collingwood, and you didn't think that the final against the Bulldogs reflected mental toughess, then you have allowed your view to become prejudiced IMO.
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rodgerfox wrote:

Ok, so we win 19 straight and beat Geelong, smash the Dogs twice and totally dominate the comp.

Then in the finals, we beat an inispid Collingwood, then get some widely acknowledged good fortune to beat the Dogs, then can't beat an injury stricken Geelong team after being in front at 3Q time.


Fair to say the H&A season was a fraction different to what we served up in September don't you think?

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SainterK wrote:

Would you have said we dominated the comp in 2008? Of course not...

I made a case that RL had brought the team forward in 2009, when you specifically asked a poster why you should have faith in Ross.

You continue to break it down to one component, that being finals, which suits your argument.

[saint66au]

then can't beat an injury stricken Geelong team after being in front at 3Q time.

BWahahahahahahahaahhahaha...oh Rodg stop it your cracking me up

Ive read some tosh on here since GF day, but that without doubt is the most ill-informed, misguided, incorrect load of bollocks Ive read here since that day

If you honestly belive that to be true, then you clearly did not watch the game, which of course would not surprise me given your admitted indifference to AFL footy

Print that statemnt out and mulch your roeses with it..they'll be blooming like crazy in days

Incredulous, even by your standards Rodg. I'm normally reticent to knock other posters opinions, but to me your not a real poster, more a cartoon character trhat adopts personas so suit his/her lil mind games

Want people to respect your opinion? . Start doing a bit more around here than just using us for your amusement. How about sponsoring a player like most of the rest of us? Oh thats right, doing that might give away something about your real identity cos you'd have to send money. Your anonymity is much more important than doing something tangible to help the Club isnt it???

[SainterK]

SainterK wrote:

Would you have said we dominated the comp in 2008? Of course not...

I made a case that RL had brought the team forward in 2009, when you specifically asked a poster why you should have faith in Ross.

You continue to break it down to one component, that being finals, which suits your argument.

Rogerfox wrote:

I haven't broken it down to 1 component - I've broken it down into 2.

H&A and Finals. I made it very clear that from a H&A perspective we went forward greatly.
However once we hit the finals in 09 these improvements vanished and in most cases went either back to 08 levels or worse.

When you asked the question, I made it clear there it wasn't as simple. That's because they don't give out flags after the H&A season - and our form for 20 weeks was vastly different from our form of the last 6 matches of the season.

Of course it suits my argument - it's 'my argument' because I believe it to be true based on what I've put forward.

??

[joffaboy]

Is Lovett still drinking?

[SainterK]

SainterK wrote:

Would you have said we dominated the comp in 2008? Of course not...

I made a case that RL had brought the team forward in 2009, when you specifically asked a poster why you should have faith in Ross.

You continue to break it down to one component, that being finals, which suits your argument.

Rogerfox wrote:

I haven't broken it down to 1 component - I've broken it down into 2.

H&A and Finals. I made it very clear that from a H&A perspective we went forward greatly.
However once we hit the finals in 09 these improvements vanished and in most cases went either back to 08 levels or worse.

When you asked the question, I made it clear there it wasn't as simple. That's because they don't give out flags after the H&A season - and our form for 20 weeks was vastly different from our form of the last 6 matches of the season.

Of course it suits my argument - it's 'my argument' because I believe it to be true based on what I've put forward.

??

Firstly, you belittle the match against Collingwood, which was one of the best finals the boys have played in a long time.

I am surprised that you think the team lacked mental toughness against the bulldogs, then you really are a cynic.

However, all this has obviously done nothing to better your opinion about Ross. I put forward that the team had bettered itself this year under his coaching, that there was vast improvement across many levels.

To say that the improvements vanished in the GF and in most cases went either back to 08 levels or worse is crazy, because from memory, we have not had the luxury of analysing a "grand final" appearance for a lot longer than that.

[spert]

Interestingly, considering we had a practically disfunctional forward line in a GF, we only lost by 2 goals, and one of those goals was suss. A tweak of the team structure by season 2010 will see improvement and a good chance at the '10 flag.

[yipper]

then can't beat an injury stricken Geelong team after being in front at 3Q time.

BWahahahahahahahaahhahaha...oh Rodg stop it your cracking me up

Ive read some tosh on here since GF day, but that without doubt is the most ill-informed, misguided, incorrect load of bollocks Ive read here since that day

If you honestly belive that to be true, then you clearly did not watch the game, which of course would not surprise me given your admitted indifference to AFL footy

Print that statemnt out and mulch your roeses with it..they'll be blooming like crazy in days

Incredulous, even by your standards Rodg. I'm normally reticent to knock other posters opinions, but to me your not a real poster, more a cartoon character trhat adopts personas so suit his/her lil mind games

Want people to respect your opinion? . Start doing a bit more around here than just using us for your amusement. How about sponsoring a player like most of the rest of us? Oh thats right, doing that might give away something about your real identity cos you'd have to send money. Your anonymity is much more important than doing something tangible to help the Club isnt it???

Totally agree. No mention at all of the FACT that Roo was buggered with a torn adductor muscle, BJ had broken his collarbone and Lenny was out on his feet going into that last Q. Injury riddled Geelong??? yeah right.

[borderbarry]

And dont forget Raph Clark got flattened just before half time and had to be taken down to the rooms for treatment as well.

[plugger66]

I knew RF wouldnt get into this thread. he loves highjacking threads that have nothing to do with the original topic. He does it all the time.

[SainterK]

I knew RF wouldnt get into this thread. he loves highjacking threads that have nothing to do with the original topic. He does it all the time.

You're right, why is that?

[Moods]

I guess by your logic Rodg - the saints team of 2008 would have made the GF and quite poss have won it in 2009 - considering we reverted back to the 2008 form or worse during the 09 finals series - and of course the cats of 09 were injury ravaged therefore no where near the standard of their 08 team.

If that all makes sense

Read it carefully and you will see just how warped Rodger's logic is....

[Milan Faletic]

Is Lovett still drinking?

Apparently he was caught drinking. There are 13 pages all about it

[Milan Faletic]

And dont forget Raph Clark got flattened just before half time and had to be taken down to the rooms for treatment as well.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who saw that. Thanks Barry

[Milan Faletic]

I really think if we keep analysing and re-analysing the game, we may just reverse the result.

Let's just keep trying.

[SainterK]

I really think if we keep analysing and re-analysing the game, we may just reverse the result.

Let's just keep trying.

It's not supposed to be about the game Milan, it's supposed to be about whether Ross brought the team forward in 2009...

[SainterK]

Everything old, is new again...

[Milan Faletic]

I really think if we keep analysing and re-analysing the game, we may just reverse the result.

Let's just keep trying.

It's not supposed to be about the game Milan, it's supposed to be about whether Ross brought the team forward in 2009...

He did. Isn't it obvious

[Rickabee]

Doesn't the fact that we made it to the GF, instead of just a PF count for anything?

How much did Geelong beat us by in the Final in 2008 vs. 2009? Aren't these both examples of an improvement in finals form? There's 14 other teams that would have liked to have played as well as we did in 2009.

If you can't see a difference in that then not even glasses and a hearing aid will help you!

[SydneySainter]

SainterK wrote:

Rogerfox wrote:

I haven't broken it down to 1 component - I've broken it down into 2.

H&A and Finals. I made it very clear that from a H&A perspective we went forward greatly.
However once we hit the finals in 09 these improvements vanished and in most cases went either back to 08 levels or worse.

When you asked the question, I made it clear there it wasn't as simple. That's because they don't give out flags after the H&A season - and our form for 20 weeks was vastly different from our form of the last 6 matches of the season.

Of course it suits my argument - it's 'my argument' because I believe it to be true based on what I've put forward.

??

If the author of that comment honestly believes that our 2009 finals series was equal to that of 2008 or worse, than they're a bigger flog than I thought.

In 2008, we got squashed by the eventual grand finalists and in 2009 we had a total losing margin of 12 points, that being in the grand final, our sole loss. Yet that equates to 2008 or worse?

I agree, our 2009 finals series wasn't crash hot, but an argument like that is nothing more than desperately grasping at straws.

[SainterK]

SainterK wrote:

Rogerfox wrote:

I haven't broken it down to 1 component - I've broken it down into 2.

H&A and Finals. I made it very clear that from a H&A perspective we went forward greatly.
However once we hit the finals in 09 these improvements vanished and in most cases went either back to 08 levels or worse.

When you asked the question, I made it clear there it wasn't as simple. That's because they don't give out flags after the H&A season - and our form for 20 weeks was vastly different from our form of the last 6 matches of the season.

Of course it suits my argument - it's 'my argument' because I believe it to be true based on what I've put forward.

??

If the author of that comment honestly believes that our 2009 finals series was equal to that of 2008 or worse, than they're a bigger flog than I thought.

In 2008, we got squashed by the eventual grand finalists and in 2009 we had a total losing margin of 12 points, that being in the grand final, our sole loss. Yet that equates to 2008 or worse?

I agree, our 2009 finals series wasn't crash hot, but an argument like that is nothing more than desperately grasping at straws.

He won't return SS, the motive is to derail other threads rather than have a discussion.

[rodgerfox]

SainterK wrote:

Rogerfox wrote:

I haven't broken it down to 1 component - I've broken it down into 2.

H&A and Finals. I made it very clear that from a H&A perspective we went forward greatly.
However once we hit the finals in 09 these improvements vanished and in most cases went either back to 08 levels or worse.

When you asked the question, I made it clear there it wasn't as simple. That's because they don't give out flags after the H&A season - and our form for 20 weeks was vastly different from our form of the last 6 matches of the season.

Of course it suits my argument - it's 'my argument' because I believe it to be true based on what I've put forward.

??

If the author of that comment honestly believes that our 2009 finals series was equal to that of 2008 or worse, than they're a bigger flog than I thought.

In 2008, we got squashed by the eventual grand finalists and in 2009 we had a total losing margin of 12 points, that being in the grand final, our sole loss. Yet that equates to 2008 or worse?

I agree, our 2009 finals series wasn't crash hot, but an argument like that is nothing more than desperately grasping at straws.

He won't return SS, the motive is to derail other threads rather than have a discussion.

We've already discussed this.

I disagree with you and many other one-eyed die hards.

Any need to continue this 'discussion'?

[SydneySainter]

We've already discussed this.

I disagree with you and many other one-eyed die hards.

Any need to continue this 'discussion'?

It's simply called acknowledging credit where credit is due.

As I said, our finals series was by no means amazing, but the proof is in the pudding. Being two kicks away from the premiership cup shows the mechanics were certainly there and to argue that we made no extra grounds compaired to last years finals campaign is being one-eyed in your well-broadcasted oppinion of the Lyon era since it first began.