Butler is done

[JR23]

We were mesmerised by his first year. Since then its largely been a disappointment. Only 8 disposals today and that's the recent form

Poor disposal and decision making, not getting much of the ball and generally an outside player

Bring in Billings, Bytel and give our forward line another option. Playing Hill fwd is a better option

Hope he can come back to his initial form

[SAINT-LEE]

Oh mate, hold your hat you're about to get defiled ....there's some mad Butler lovers on here.

[saynta]

Ratts said in his presser that Butler has had an achillies niggle for weeks now, but I'm with you. Play guys who can get 20+ possessions per week. such as Billings, Clark, Byrnes and Bytel and stop f****** around with guys who can't get a kick.

4 Dees got over one hundred and twenty possessions between them this week.

[The_Dud]

I agree, has been very disappointing. Straight swap him for Billings.

[mr six o'clock]

Butler was subbed off due to ankle injury
Probably won't play seniors for a while

[Ghost Like]

Yep, let's have a complete forward line that won't tackle.

[skeptic]

That’s weird...

Why is his output suddenly an issue now that we’re not winning?

[shanegrambeau]

Ratts said in his presser that Butler has had an achillies niggle for weeks now, but I'm with you. Play guys who can get 20+ possessions per week. such as Billings, Clark, Byrnes and Bytel and stop f****** around with guys who can't get a kick.

4 Dees got over one hundred possessions between them this week.

So let’s have it out in the open then.

How many of the team are already, or have already been playing hindered and compromised by injuries?.?

Max? (..explain his lack of go ?)
Marshall? (….explain why he was only on the field for two and bit quarters today? [61% on field)

Sounds fishy to me, but it’s only a presser, (we know it could just be a bit of fluff)

[WellardSaint]

Butler to play in the 2's until he gets >25 possies and 4 goals/game, consistently

[Banger9798]

Well, I am a Butler fan, and I think he does alot of pressure acts in the forward line and is a smart player
But it may be time that he has a rest to recapture form.
Billings and Sharman would give us some new dimensions in the F50.

[mad saint guy]

Butler has had a few too many down games now and his credits have ran out, even if not for the injury I'd be dropping him this week. Doesn't mean he's done though. For all we know his injury niggle has restricted him over the last month. He started the season well

First 4 games: 5 goals, avg 11.75 disposals and 5.25 tackles
Last 4 games: 0 goals, 7.5 disposals, 3.25 tackles

This week we probably move Long into the 'pressure forward' role.

[spert]

Butler has had a few too many down games now and his credits have ran out, even if not for the injury I'd be dropping him this week. Doesn't mean he's done though. For all we know his injury niggle has restricted him over the last month. He started the season well

First 4 games: 5 goals, avg 11.75 disposals and 5.25 tackles
Last 4 games: 0 goals, 7.5 disposals, 3.25 tackles

This week we probably move Long into the 'pressure forward' role.

Richmond dropped him to the VFL as he wasn't getting on the scoreboard after playing some good games in the seniors but fell away. He is a goal-sneak crumber, not a defensive smaller player that we're making him play as.

[Life Long Saint]

Butler to play in the 2's until he gets >25 possies and 4 goals/game, consistently

Be realistic.
No player in the league would do that - even in the VFL.
Four goals/game would almost put on 80 goals a season pace.

[Yorkeys]

Perhaps time to reassess the doctrine of smaller "pressure" forward that a number of teams have followed for years.

The leading goal kickers are not small.
Being able to take a contested mark and lead well, plus be reliable from < 40m. are the needed qualities.
Players like Butler are a luxury we can't afford. Means opposition can concentrate on Max and Higgins. Butler is not a matchwinner, he seems to have become a habit at selection. Can look clever but has been largely ineffective over the journey.
The whole concept of a defensive forward has always seemed contradictory to me. Every one is expected to pressure the opposition as a given. Forwards are supposed to get the ball and score.

[DJ Higgins]

Butler in injured and will need to rest and rehabilitate. Then he will slot back in. Good news is that we have players coming back in to the team ie hunter Clark so it makes dropping a player an easy choice.

[shanegrambeau]

Butler to play in the 2's until he gets >25 possies and 4 goals/game, consistently

Be realistic.
No player in the league would do that - even in the VFL.
Four goals/game would almost put on 80 goals a season pace.

Agree
But it is cruel
Small forwards, we are always warned, have invisible weeks. Scavengers with nothing to scavenge.

But then, MIlne, Betts, Johnson etc., so you wonder...
He is having a real go, but is in the wrong spots I guess..?? Go figure??

[Ghost Like]

I am a Butler fan but the small forwards aren't working. Opposition defences are not getting sucked up the ground allowing Butler & Higgins & Gresham free reign to run behind them.
Agree this puts too much heat on Max to pack mark. Time to mix things up, play Sharman as a leading, marking tall forward. Both Membrey & Sharman are agile enough.
Max also needs to live up to this Winx nickname & stop moving like a Clydesdale.
Butler out (dropped / injured) does leave a hole in tackling pressure so Max, Membrey & Sharman will have to chase & harrass.

[Life Long Saint]

Butler to play in the 2's until he gets >25 possies and 4 goals/game, consistently

Be realistic.
No player in the league would do that - even in the VFL.
Four goals/game would almost put on 80 goals a season pace.

Agree
But it is cruel
Small forwards, we are always warned, have invisible weeks. Scavengers with nothing to scavenge.

But then, MIlne, Betts, Johnson etc., so you wonder...
He is having a real go, but is in the wrong spots I guess..?? Go figure??

No small forward in the history of the game has got anywhere near those numbers.
If you can get 50 goals a season from your small forward, then he is special.
What you really want is for the small amount of possessions they get to be really damaging.
Cyril Rioli made almost every one of his possessions count.
Small forwards need to either score or be involved in a scoring chain with every possession.
They also need to work to keep the ball inside their forward half.

[mad saint guy]

Article excerpt:

The Saints are yet to rule Butler out of Saturday’s clash with Geelong, but coach Brett Ratten hinted they were leaning towards giving him a break after he admitted to doctors at the weekend he “couldn’t push off”.

“Dan’s had an achilles (problem) that we’ve been managing and he was pretty sore during the week and he has been for a couple of weeks,” Ratten said.

“But he got sore during the game. We know the story of achilles, with (Jade) Gresham snapping it and what it does, so you have to be mindful there, but this is one that’s been lingering for a while."

Tough gig being a small forward if you can't accelerate.

[George27]

Article excerpt:

The Saints are yet to rule Butler out of Saturday’s clash with Geelong, but coach Brett Ratten hinted they were leaning towards giving him a break after he admitted to doctors at the weekend he “couldn’t push off”.

“Dan’s had an achilles (problem) that we’ve been managing and he was pretty sore during the week and he has been for a couple of weeks,” Ratten said.

“But he got sore during the game. We know the story of achilles, with (Jade) Gresham snapping it and what it does, so you have to be mindful there, but this is one that’s been lingering for a while."

Tough gig being a small forward if you can't accelerate.

Thanks for that , MSG.

A couple of observations on that.

1. Ratten clearly thinks Butler is still performing a role in the team, to persevere with him whilst he has been experiencing Achilles issues and whilst there seem to be a number of possible replacements.

2. Now however that it seems the injury has got the better of him, I reckon it would be staggering if he played this weekend. We have an otherwise pretty healthy list, so slot in someone else ( Jack Billings an obvious candidate ), and let Dan get back to full fitness. As good as he can be on his day , an injured Dan Butler does not demand selection the way an injured Nick Riewoldt would !

[WellardSaint]

I'm thinking back to a certain 'Maverick' (Top Gun Maverick comes out soon) who injured an ankle, or similar.
Oh well, lower leg.
He missed maybe 2 weeks, then returned.
Was never the same after that.

I remember him trying to tackle guys but it was always a futile dive or lunge.

I want Butler to be off for as long as it takes to fix

[shanegrambeau]

Butler may have been victim of a different game plan. Max is standing back and contesting. He is not leading forward and so the ‘over the back’ ramble-gamble thing isn’t happening. Butler was such a great ‘swooper’ of those loose balls behind. Higgins is more lead and mark too.

[Otiman]

My belief since about the mid point of last year is that you cannot have a goal-kicking Higgins and Butler in the same team.

Before that, I thought it would be helpful if one or the other had a hard matchup for the other to get loose, but that's not the case.

As a result, Butler has had to adjust his game and has suffered for it.

The game that Higgins sat out with concussion was his best of the year.

[Scollop]

My belief since about the mid point of last year is that you cannot have a goal-kicking Higgins and Butler in the same team.

Before that, I thought it would be helpful if one or the other had a hard matchup for the other to get loose, but that's not the case.

As a result, Butler has had to adjust his game and has suffered for it.

The game that Higgins sat out with concussion was his best of the year.

+1

When one extra small comes in there will always be a drop off in form for the other smalls. It's a natural occurrence when you cannibalise opportunities for one forward versus another