It’s make-or-break under RtB

[Sainternist]

In the last month or so, I have slowly been coming to the conclusion that Ross Lyon — in his initial year of his second St.Kilda tenure — has introduced a system whereby only the strong will survive.

From what I gather Lyon’s gruelling pre-season was something none of our players had ever experienced before. Many on the list have come out quite a bit stronger than before, however, there was some collateral damage in sustaining injuries to the likes of King. But this is a small price to pay in the long-term, as others with question marks in relation to their longevity have found themselves struggling to recover from the overall rigours of the Lyon regime. I guess this is all part of his “tough love” they said he would bring in his current tenure.

I believe this is a part of a sort of process of weeding out, as come end of season, we likely see some of the more injury prone players, e.g. Jones, Hayes and D-Mac pack up their lockers and move on. Yes, it seems quite cruel in some respects, but as we know, as opposed to the three coaches the club’s previously,
Ross is all about winning premierships (he has come agonisingly close three times and desperately wants atonement).

Maybe I’m way off the mark here, but I thought I would share my thoughts on the matter all the same. Anyway, feel free to discuss this one further.

Cheers!

[Impatient Sainter]

I think RTB will have more holistic or measured view than just putting a line through players with talent. Its the ones who have shown zero at AFL levels that will be in most trouble.

We also have to consider the reasons behind Simon Walsh getting the push you would think that was the result of the state of lists fitness and reinjuries during the players rehabs.

[Vortex]

The assertion RL jacked up the training load to breaking level doesn't seem congruent with elite training standards.

Incredible amounts of training and medical data exists on every AFL player so you'd expect a professional coach would have requested a report on the baseline fitness of his players and applied individual training programs to ensure his players weren't pushed to breaking point.

Can't imagine Ross broke players deliberately but something was or is amiss.

[The_Dud]

I don't think you can put the King injury down to anything but bad luck, could have happened under any coach with any system.

But I'm also happy for RTB to weed out the weak, so to speak.

[skeptic]

I posted this elsewhere but feel it’s appropriate for this discussion too

Unfortunately Lyon has form in this regard. Version 1.0 preferred to play guys that were hampered or well below their best ahead of those pushing for opportunity.

Steele was in great form pre-injury and has been well down and obviously hampered since he’s been back. I’d have preferred to take an L or two if it meant letting Bytel, Windhager etc get a few full games in to reward their hard work and form rather than take those same losses with Steele down and Bytel playing 2 last quarters.

We’ve gained nothing from that beyond pbly lowering the confidence of all three players.

Then you note that Wood is playing with a bung shoulder and has been down, Marshall looks hampered with a foot etc and concerns about running players into the ground whilst starving others from opportunity reemerge

My hope is that RTB will be a little bolder and daring in team selection this time round

I do by and large agree with the OP but I am concerned that RL hasn’t quite got the balance right in terms of working players hard and running them down.

IMO the reality of modern AFL is that players have to work harder than ever before to maintain the high explosive style of effort expected from them…
That is… especially for the mids… high intensity sprint as long and hard as possible, go off for recovery. With the interchange caps that’s changed to a degree but that’s the style. Periodically that takes a toll and recovery becomes an issue.

I’ve always maintained that in such scenarios that it’s better to rotate players in and out for a week here or there if they’re that run down and give the Bytels of the world the opportunity.
You look at Crouch, Ross, Steele and Sincs to a lesser degree and note that all have been down since the short turn around from Carlton to Port.

Sometimes rest is better than management.

It’s easy to jump to on the mids as not being good enough but the reality is… Steele, Ross, Crouch and Sinclair has largely all maintained elite or close to standard for the majority of the last year or so… that they’re all way down seems like it can’t be a coincidence to me

[Life Long Saint]

This bit is garbage!

there was some collateral damage in sustaining injuries to the likes of King.

https://www.upg-studio.com.au/physio-jo ... o-analysis
Done in a marking contest.

[Sainternist]

This bit is garbage!

there was some collateral damage in sustaining injuries to the likes of King.

https://www.upg-studio.com.au/physio-jo ... o-analysis
Done in a marking contest.

Yep, that still constitutes collateral damage, for mine.

[WellardSaint]

He prefers to play it safe with King's injury, holding him back;
Yet with Steele, he played against Blues, saying 'consider it part of your rehab'.

This is what he says publicly, but behind closed doors, in a meeting with physios+Conditioning guru+assistant coaches...big discussions.

Anyway...i agree with OP, as AFL is brutal, survival of the fittest, and only the best can achieve the ultimate, so yes, he's the right man for us, better than Cuddles who was more of the 'choose your own adventure'

[shanegrambeau]

I misread the title of this thread. Cognitive bias? I assumed it to mean, ’It's make-or~break FOR Ross Lyon'. Moreover, I jumped to the conclusion that it was this very week, against GWS, that will be the 'make-or-break point'

Now, that shows how fragile my hope is! lol..

But I do agree with the general idea and the contents.

It is also good to point out that Jack Steele isn't 'too skinny because of RTBs hard-arse training regime'.

Just check the first few rounds folks. Jack among the best list for these games.. 28 possies in Round 1 and 2, listed as best on AFL site (didn't check round 3 on)

[Otiman]

The word from RTB is it's a "Year of exploration", for me I read this as talent, effort, fitness, potential.

Interesting the comments in today's presser, that we are not going to win it on talent so needs to be about effort and system. Fitness certainly comes into this.

Ross is looking for fit players, who can give effort and play to the system. If this means talented players without the effort and fitness to back it up don't play, so be it.

[Vortex]

The word from RTB is it's a "Year of exploration", for me I read this as talent, effort, fitness, potential.

Interesting the comments in today's presser, that we are not going to win it on talent so needs to be about effort and system. Fitness certainly comes into this.

Ross is looking for fit players, who can give effort and play to the system. If this means talented players without the effort and fitness to back it up don't play, so be it.

By the time GF day comes around fitness equals zero advantage, it comes down to depth of talent above all else with the occasional outlier, 2016 as exhibit A.

A critical mass of talented players is what wins premierships, it's been that way since the late 1800s.

Ross 3.0 knows he's got a long road ahead of him to get the players capable of challenging.

[The Fireman]

The word from RTB is it's a "Year of exploration", for me I read this as talent, effort, fitness, potential.

Interesting the comments in today's presser, that we are not going to win it on talent so needs to be about effort and system. Fitness certainly comes into this.

Ross is looking for fit players, who can give effort and play to the system. If this means talented players without the effort and fitness to back it up don't play, so be it.

By the time GF day comes around fitness equals zero advantage, it comes down to depth of talent above all else with the occasional outlier, 2016 as exhibit A.

A critical mass of talented players is what wins premierships, it's been that way since the late 1800s.

Ross 3.0 knows he's got a long road ahead of him to get the players capable of challenging.

So what you are say is that the players aren’t up to it…….once again

[WellardSaint]

I misread the title of this thread. Cognitive bias? I assumed it to mean, ’It's make-or~break FOR Ross Lyon'. Moreover, I jumped to the conclusion that it was this very week, against GWS, that will be the 'make-or-break point'

Now, that shows how fragile my hope is! lol..

But I do agree with the general idea and the contents.

It is also good to point out that Jack Steele isn't 'too skinny because of RTBs hard-arse training regime'.

Just check the first few rounds folks. Jack among the best list for these games.. 28 possies in Round 1 and 2, listed as best on AFL site (didn't check round 3 on)

You're incorrect.
Steele says himself (well, as per Fox Footy) that when RTB walked in, he looked at Steele and Seb and said
'We wanna be a running team, and we need you to be a bit lighter'.
Steele said he n Seb were both playing at ~90 kgs so, at RTB's insistence, they lost some 'weight'.
Also 'pre-season was tough, one of the hardest in my time in footy'

I know tony74 will correct me if I'm inaccurate

[Bruce G McAbee]

Hayes may get some latitude seeing he's coming off a knee reconstruction.

[shanegrambeau]

I misread the title of this thread. Cognitive bias? I assumed it to mean, ’It's make-or~break FOR Ross Lyon'. Moreover, I jumped to the conclusion that it was this very week, against GWS, that will be the 'make-or-break point'

Now, that shows how fragile my hope is! lol..

But I do agree with the general idea and the contents.

It is also good to point out that Jack Steele isn't 'too skinny because of RTBs hard-arse training regime'.

Just check the first few rounds folks. Jack among the best list for these games.. 28 possies in Round 1 and 2, listed as best on AFL site (didn't check round 3 on)

You're incorrect.
Steele says himself (well, as per Fox Footy) that when RTB walked in, he looked at Steele and Seb and said
'We wanna be a running team, and we need you to be a bit lighter'.
Steele said he n Seb were both playing at ~90 kgs so, at RTB's insistence, they lost some 'weight'.
Also 'pre-season was tough, one of the hardest in my time in footy'

I know tony74 will correct me if I'm inaccurate

I give you points for rheotic - dropping the Tony74 name

But it is completely irrelevant - unless you mistyped...

Jack Steele was named among the best six for both first few games, and I didn't eveb check beyond that ..but again, not relevant
It was a choice made by the reviewer on AFL.(and i don't work for them) so rather than waiting for someone else to help, do yourself a favour, read the reviews, check the stats

[Vortex]

The word from RTB is it's a "Year of exploration", for me I read this as talent, effort, fitness, potential.

Interesting the comments in today's presser, that we are not going to win it on talent so needs to be about effort and system. Fitness certainly comes into this.

Ross is looking for fit players, who can give effort and play to the system. If this means talented players without the effort and fitness to back it up don't play, so be it.

By the time GF day comes around fitness equals zero advantage, it comes down to depth of talent above all else with the occasional outlier, 2016 as exhibit A.

A critical mass of talented players is what wins premierships, it's been that way since the late 1800s.

Ross 3.0 knows he's got a long road ahead of him to get the players capable of challenging.

So what you are say is that the players aren’t up to it…….once again

You are as sharp as tack aye Mr Hose Handler. Nuttin' get's past your sharp intellect.

Dat exactly what I'm saying...just curious, you still think we can win the flag this year?

[The Fireman]

The word from RTB is it's a "Year of exploration", for me I read this as talent, effort, fitness, potential.

Interesting the comments in today's presser, that we are not going to win it on talent so needs to be about effort and system. Fitness certainly comes into this.

Ross is looking for fit players, who can give effort and play to the system. If this means talented players without the effort and fitness to back it up don't play, so be it.

By the time GF day comes around fitness equals zero advantage, it comes down to depth of talent above all else with the occasional outlier, 2016 as exhibit A.

A critical mass of talented players is what wins premierships, it's been that way since the late 1800s.

Ross 3.0 knows he's got a long road ahead of him to get the players capable of challenging.

So what you are say is that the players aren’t up to it…….once again

You are as sharp as tack aye Mr Hose Handler. Nuttin' get's past your sharp intellect.

Dat exactly what I'm saying...just curious, you still think we can win the flag this year?

I just can’t wait for you next instalment on how unskilled our players are
You can tell us again now if you like.

And yes I think we can still win the flag

[Bowey Boy]

I forgot D-Mac existed.

[Vortex]

The word from RTB is it's a "Year of exploration", for me I read this as talent, effort, fitness, potential.

Interesting the comments in today's presser, that we are not going to win it on talent so needs to be about effort and system. Fitness certainly comes into this.

Ross is looking for fit players, who can give effort and play to the system. If this means talented players without the effort and fitness to back it up don't play, so be it.

By the time GF day comes around fitness equals zero advantage, it comes down to depth of talent above all else with the occasional outlier, 2016 as exhibit A.

A critical mass of talented players is what wins premierships, it's been that way since the late 1800s.

Ross 3.0 knows he's got a long road ahead of him to get the players capable of challenging.

So what you are say is that the players aren’t up to it…….once again

You are as sharp as tack aye Mr Hose Handler. Nuttin' get's past your sharp intellect.

Dat exactly what I'm saying...just curious, you still think we can win the flag this year?

I just can’t wait for you next instalment on how unskilled our players are
You can tell us again now if you like.

And yes I think we can still win the flag

When you say "us", who exactly are you referring too, is it the other 9 posters on SS or do you have another gang?

And good on you for your beliefs, I respect them.

[The Fireman]

The word from RTB is it's a "Year of exploration", for me I read this as talent, effort, fitness, potential.

Interesting the comments in today's presser, that we are not going to win it on talent so needs to be about effort and system. Fitness certainly comes into this.

Ross is looking for fit players, who can give effort and play to the system. If this means talented players without the effort and fitness to back it up don't play, so be it.

By the time GF day comes around fitness equals zero advantage, it comes down to depth of talent above all else with the occasional outlier, 2016 as exhibit A.

A critical mass of talented players is what wins premierships, it's been that way since the late 1800s.

Ross 3.0 knows he's got a long road ahead of him to get the players capable of challenging.

So what you are say is that the players aren’t up to it…….once again

You are as sharp as tack aye Mr Hose Handler. Nuttin' get's past your sharp intellect.

Dat exactly what I'm saying...just curious, you still think we can win the flag this year?

I just can’t wait for you next instalment on how unskilled our players are
You can tell us again now if you like.

And yes I think we can still win the flag

When you say "us", who exactly are you referring too, is it the other 9 posters on SS or do you have another gang?

And good on you for your beliefs, I respect them.

“Us” is referring to everyone on the forum

[Vortex]

The word from RTB is it's a "Year of exploration", for me I read this as talent, effort, fitness, potential.

Interesting the comments in today's presser, that we are not going to win it on talent so needs to be about effort and system. Fitness certainly comes into this.

Ross is looking for fit players, who can give effort and play to the system. If this means talented players without the effort and fitness to back it up don't play, so be it.

By the time GF day comes around fitness equals zero advantage, it comes down to depth of talent above all else with the occasional outlier, 2016 as exhibit A.

A critical mass of talented players is what wins premierships, it's been that way since the late 1800s.

Ross 3.0 knows he's got a long road ahead of him to get the players capable of challenging.

So what you are say is that the players aren’t up to it…….once again

You are as sharp as tack aye Mr Hose Handler. Nuttin' get's past your sharp intellect.

Dat exactly what I'm saying...just curious, you still think we can win the flag this year?

I just can’t wait for you next instalment on how unskilled our players are
You can tell us again now if you like.

And yes I think we can still win the flag

When you say "us", who exactly are you referring too, is it the other 9 posters on SS or do you have another gang?

And good on you for your beliefs, I respect them.

“Us” is referring to everyone on the forum

You do realise this site has crashed to less than 10 regular posters, to the point a thread about racism grows more pages than the match day threads. So "US" is 10 minus you and I which leaves 8. Check out the recent poll numbers ....zilch!

But I doubt even if you did know this that it would help you adjust your anchored neurology.

But I find you interesting and clearly my anonymous online presence lives in your head. ...possibly something for you to assess.

[asiu]

let me lay this out

IF ... we end up bitching like girls
this site will be shut down

coz no one desires to mod the angst
has the time to mod the angst
or the passion to mod the angst

'n shutting her down will fix all the issues


got it ?

underfuckingstand ??


FFS

soon , you'll have no site

so

yet again

please ... grow the f*** up or shut the f*** up

[shanegrambeau]

Lost in Space?

Are we really down to 9 posters?

Like sailors on a lifeboat after the ship has gone down.

Do they really turn into cannibals?

Like the movies?

Nup..

solid friends..one and all..side by side..

.woops...that's another club song!

fair dinkum, no matter what we say..human nature has good and bad sides..

What will be, will be

[Teflon]

Lost in Space?

Are we really down to 9 posters?

Like sailors on a lifeboat after the ship has gone down.

Do they really turn into cannibals?

Like the movies?

Nup..

solid friends..one and all..side by side..

.woops...that's another club song!

fair dinkum, no matter what we say..human nature has good and bad sides..

What will be, will be

Let’s eat the fat Vort first…

[SAINT-LEE]

Lost in Space?

Are we really down to 9 posters?

Like sailors on a lifeboat after the ship has gone down.

Do they really turn into cannibals?

Like the movies?

Nup..

solid friends..one and all..side by side..

.woops...that's another club song!

fair dinkum, no matter what we say..human nature has good and bad sides..

What will be, will be

Let’s eat the fat Vort first…

Ok....Ive had enough of this!!!

ITS RIDICULOUS!!

Yes, fat carries more caloric value but in eating humans we are going to follow my tried & true plan. Ok?

We eat muscley ones first. Sure, they're not as flavourful as the blubbery but we need the protein far more than the calories.

If we cleverly start eating on day 1 we can chose those with both muscles and a bit of fat and thusly have the best of both worlds.

If we start with fat first down to skinny last...we will only have skinny people with sinew muscles. I'll have to marinate for days & God only knows what type of seasonings will be available? I can not work in these type of conditions.

Further...I'm only in if I have 100% control over the bbq tongs.

Please please please....lets agree to work together on this, we ARE Sainters afterall!!!