What style of play do we want/expect to see on Sat night?

[meher baba]

It strikes me that there are comparatively fewer footy analysis threads on this forum in the past couple of weeks than at similar stages of the past few seasons.

Those few posters who are expressing their views regularly seem to be very up beat about how the team is going to go this year. Many more seem to be comparatively silent.

Even though some posters seem to have decided - on the basis of our perofrmances in the Who Cares Cup - that RL should immediately be elevated to the status of supercoach, the truth is that we really don't know much about what to expect in the first few rounds of the season.

Some posters - who don't appear to me to have any particular inside knowledge - are expressing the view that the playing style will involve rapid and direct movement of the ball up the centre to 3 talls - Kosi, Gehrig and Riewoldt - with C Gardiner as an alternative target and a crumber in the form of Milne or Schneider. What strikes me most forcibly about this prediction is that it sounds almost identical in form to the GT coaching style of 2004-05!! To me, this prediction is wishful thinking: nothing RL has done up to now would suggest that he is going to adopt this approach. However, I certainly hope that he does!!

Another possible scenario - and the one to which I look forward with a sinking feeling in my stomach - is that we will see the same garbage that we saw for much of last season: all 18 players endlessly running up and down the field, lots of holding up of the ball when we have it to enable our tiring forwards to run back up the field and into position, Dal Santo playing more or less permanently down back, corralling of opponents waiting for them to make a bad disposal and turn it over, few efforts to go for contested balls in open play, etc

The second game against the Swans was a low point for me last year. We tried to play them at their nauseating style of play and were outperformed.

So Saturday night is going to be a good opportunity for us to assess the extent to which the 2008 style is going to be something like what we all desperately want to see (or, if you believe the Teflons of this forum, is going to be the style that RL was trying to coach us to play all along, except that the players were too stupid or too disloyal to carry it out on field).

Without going into too much detail, I am hoping to see
- more attack on the ball rather than waiting for opponents to pick it up and then tackle them
- more players staying permanently upfield
- Dal spending more of the game as a playmaker in the forward half of the field
- a game based more on taking attacking risks and less on percentage play

What do others think?

[yipper]

There has been a quite visible emphasis on kicking long to position in the NAB series - and an increase in strong tackling. It would appear from what has transpired thuis far - that they are playing more to our strengths, i.e. winning the clearance and going long and direct through the corridor. I think that there has been a change to our style from last year (again going on what we saw through the NAB) on the back of having an imposing ruck set-up and fit midfield. But the pressure on the opposition has been emphatic in the praccy series - in particular, the game against the Cats showed us actually shutting down Geelong's run and play-on at all cost game style. This was a very interesting game to watch as the control of the game shifted from one to the other throughout the match. Due to increased fitness levels, a fit and refreshed midfield and much stronger ruck combo - we will see a more direct, attacking style with the accountability that was learned from last season's somewhat dull gameplan. Well, that's what I am gleaning from watching 4 x NAB praccy games.

[joffaboy]

Some posters - who don't appear to me to have any particular inside knowledge - are expressing the view that the playing style will involve rapid and direct movement of the ball up the centre to 3 talls - Kosi, Gehrig and Riewoldt - with C Gardiner as an alternative target and a crumber in the form of Milne or Schneider. What strikes me most forcibly about this prediction is that it sounds almost identical in form to the GT coaching style of 2004-05!! To me, this prediction is wishful thinking: nothing RL has done up to now would suggest that he is going to adopt this approach. However, I certainly hope that he does!!

C.Gardiner, Schneider, King, and M.Gardiner were not in any GT coached teams. This makes a big difference for a start. Also we lost the long kicking into the forward line after A.Jones retired. In GT's time Gram was only learning to play AFL. Last season he had a less impressive season than in the previous, and our other long, penetrating kicker, Goddard went down with an ACL.

I believe that we the flexibility tha Roo, Kosi, G, Chucky, plus King and M.Gardiner going forward we have a lot of versitality up forward, and with Schneider and Milne crumming, it would be foolish not to get it in quickly to the forwards.

The difference I see it is that the players are drilled to zone off and shut down the attacking players, this includes the forwards. The defensive structure seems to be a zone type of defence, more than GT's defensive structure. When the players dont have the ball, the forwards are expected to defend the like not seen since Hamill in his heyday. this forward line defence holds up the ball enough for the mids and backs to organise and zone off.
Watch the Adelaide praccy match. The Saints stifled the Crows run and carry with these tactics.

Another possible scenario - and the one to which I look forward with a sinking feeling in my stomach - is that we will see the same garbage that we saw for much of last season: all 18 players endlessly running up and down the field, lots of holding up of the ball when we have it to enable our tiring forwards to run back up the field and into position, Dal Santo playing more or less permanently down back, corralling of opponents waiting for them to make a bad disposal and turn it over, few efforts to go for contested balls in open play, etc

Yes, there was some boring crap flooding, but that was circumstance. We were really under the pump with injuries, and had to minimise the damage. We had no rucks, our mids were under the pump (Ball injured, Dal tagged, X injured, bj injured, Harvs, well Harvs is Harvs).

I dont know if you have seen any games live this year mb, however there is a gameplan to slow up the opposition attack, like last year, however it seems that with the influx of the new players, and Gram back to his penetrating best, our attack will be much more potent. I cant argue with our defence stopping the opposition and then using Gram, or bj to hit targets like Kosi, Roo, Chucky, or G, or Schneids or Milne, can you?

The second game against the Swans was a low point for me last year. We tried to play them at their nauseating style of play and were outperformed.

Remember the game against the Swans in 2001? Who flooded and went withing a goalpost of winning the impossible? As i say, circumstance. Why bother about low points from last year? Really that means nothing this year. But FWIW my low point was the fade out against Collingwood when we had them done and dusted.

So Saturday night is going to be a good opportunity for us to assess the extent to which the 2008 style is going to be something like what we all desperately want to see (or, if you believe the Teflons of this forum, is going to be the style that RL was trying to coach us to play all along, except that the players were too stupid or too disloyal to carry it out on field).

Too stupid or too disloyal? What rubbish is this mb? It takes time to learn a new structure, it doesn't help when you cant get a team on the field without half a dozen getting injured each game. We won 7-11 in the second part of the season, although our fitness was terrible and we faded in many of those and Carlton and Richmond tanked as well which made it look better.

Again, I have watched the team live three times this season, and compared to seeing them live last season, I think there is room for optimsm.

Without going into too much detail, I am hoping to see
- more attack on the ball rather than waiting for opponents to pick it up and then tackle them
- more players staying permanently upfield
- Dal spending more of the game as a playmaker in the forward half of the field
- a game based more on taking attacking risks and less on percentage play

What do others think?

point 1 - hve you actually seen any of the praccy games? If not this i a fair question, if so, you weren't paying attention

point 2 - you wont see this either, it is not part of the gameplan. Really mate you have to get to a game before you critisise, you cant get the feel of the structure on TV. Listen to Nathan Buckley as a special comments man, he can see the Saints defensive structure and how good it is stifling the opposition.

point 3 - again, watch the praccy matches, Dal Santo was used for the whole game against Essendon (with Joey) on a HFF.

point 4 - GT is gone - move on.

[barks4eva]

Even though some posters seem to have decided - on the basis of our perofrmances in the Who Cares Cup - that RL should immediately be elevated to the status of supercoach, the truth is that we really don't know much about what to expect in the first few rounds of the season.

This is NOT based on the pre-season nonsense, this opinion is formed through analysis of what is actually going on, maybe you should try that sometime and is more related to off field matters such as a brand new professionally run football department with Misson, Drain etc...on board, a mini rebuild, decent ruckmen, improved fitness levels, a now developed relationship with the coach, they're not all sea monkeys you know, you don't just add water and abracadabra, these things take time and Lyon himself identified many areas of neglect which was reported at the time ie: recruiting, fitness, conditioning etc...etc... that needed addressing and indicated that it would take at least 12 months to do so, 18 months ago.

I had already got excited about our prospecvts for these reasons BEFORE the pre-season cup and FWIW, we could just as easily have been knocked out in round two and I'd be feeling no different.

Have you got this bit, it's got NOTHING to do with pur pre -season performances as to why I am feeling confident, optimistic and excited, CAPICHE?

Even Grant Thomas could no longer deliver the excitement of 2004 in 2006, ever thought as to WHY this was so, the football we played in 2006 was not that dissimilar in standard to 2007 and for the most part of that season we struggled and depending on which way you want to paint things, the reality is if Daniel Motlop and Jason Johnson had not of missed sitters 15 and 20 metres out directly in front we may not have even made the finals.

The exciting football of 2004 had already become a thing of the past, the game had changed, our list was slow and in a mini decline through continual poor recruiting, our players were poorly conditioned with a poor fitness base and we went from 8th in 2006 to 9th in 2007.

Years of neglect have been addressed and this football club is now in great shape with a professionally run football department, the player's have a much improved fitness base, professionally monitored conditioning and some good recruiting with a few young players coming through, things are already turning for the better.

[Saintschampions08]

I don't understand where all the emphasis that we will be playing attacking footy this year is coming from.

Last year, we were the lowest scoring team.

This year, so far in the nab cup, we kicked - 16 goals against richmond, 12 goals against geelong, 13 goals against essendon, and 9 goals against Adelaide.

None of that indicates attacking footy to me

[meher baba]

JB. I have seen one game live this year, the one against Geelong. In that game, at least, I still saw plenty of NDS playing in the back half of the field (albeit that he did come forward on occasions: once spectacularly to kick a "supergoal"). I acknowledge that our attack on the ball was much better, but the standout player in that respect was Armo, whom I'm not sure will even be playing on Saturday (but I sure hope he is).

In terms of your constantly pointing out to me that I should look at what we were doing in the praccy games, I think you have missed the main point of my post: that is, that the praccy games don't mean much and that the true evidence of what our style of play is going to be this year will emerge in the regular season.

I repeat, the Swans game will be a real test. Last time we played them, RL tried to match them at their own game and lost. As I recall, JB, you were the most vehement critic on this forum of that game.

If we see something radically different on Saturday night I will applaud.

And, finally, GT or no GT, I want to see us take some risks with the ball in 2008: eg, kicking to contests involving the likes of Kosi or Riewoldt, seeing X or NDS swooping into traffic and coming away with the ball, handpasses into space where we hope our players will be (a la Brisbane, Adelaide and WCE in the 2000s), etc., etc. If you think that the time for such play has passed at our club, I'm not sure I want to watch the game any more.

[Dis Believer]

There seems to be a lot of idealogical crap for a thread that is supposed to be about gameplans.

Personally, I couldn't give a fat rat's hairy one about the game style, as long as it win's games !!!! If we only score 5 goals, who gives a shite, as long as the opposition only score 3 goals.

Personally, I think we could play a style based around what we did last year and still win more games purely on the back of better fitness and less injuries, which in theory will result in better execution and and improved outcome.
What I think will actually eventuate is that we will play something similar to last year when we don't have the ball, with the difference being more risk-taking attack on the ball carrier as a result of our better quality players being available and fitter (you'd trust L. Ball to go at the ball carrier and complete the tackle moreso than say J Gwilt).

I think the big difference will be when we go forward, I think having Kosi permananetly forward (our best pack mark), with 2 leading key forwards creating options means the emphasis will be to get the ball in forward as rapidly as possible, via the corridor. With mids and HB following up the corridor to stop rebound and push the opposition wide in the event of a turn-over. Roo and C Gardiner to lead up and empty the space. If their markers drop off and stay back to fill up the leading forward space, then they become the link men, eventually drawing their defender out of the way. The fitness of the mids then comes in to push forward to create a wall across HF and the centre to retain possession in our forward zone and prevent rebound for our opponents.

[rodgerfox]

I think our current style of play relies more heavily than ever before on key players being fit and available.

Concerningly, this has been our biggest problem over the past 5 years - yet we seem to be creating a style which depends on our health.

We had 14 wins for two years straight with horrendous injuries. Last year we won a measly 11 with the same injuries.

Another thing that bothers me, is our 'kick it to Roo' plan. During the NAB Cup, when he was on the ground, the ball went to him every time. And we struggled. We were predictable.

When he went off, we scored from many avenues.

Is he simply too good an option for our guys to ignore? Does he simply present too well and often? Or is it part of the plan to kick it to him every single time?

[rodgerfox]

Personally, I couldn't give a fat rat's hairy one about the game style, as long as it win's games !!!! If we only score 5 goals, who gives a shite, as long as the opposition only score 3 goals.

The problem is that we don't win games.

Sydney only won 15 in their flag year, and 14 in their other GF year (the same amount as us). And if we hadn't have had 8 injured in the prelim, they wouldn't have even made a GF. And if Geelong didn't lose 4 players at 3/4 time, they wouldn't have even made the prelim.

That 'style' that we saw last year, doesn't win games.

[Oh When the Saints]

I don't watching football nearly as much as I used to.

The NAB Cup Grand Final was boring. I spent the second quarter talking to someone about cars.


I don't blame RL as he's doing what he thinks is right, and I believe it is the most effective style in terms of winning a flag.

He is there to win a premiership, not please the fans.

[St DAC]

Does anyone think Geelong played 'boring' footy last year? Frankly, IMO they were an absolute breath of fresh air in gamestyle (except when crushing us!) with their play on, run through the corridor and spot up a forward style.

Sure, defensive pressure is needed (and they didn't lack for that) but they proved that moving the ball quickly, supporting in waves and giving players a chance one out works. I suspect RL has noticed ...

[meher baba]

I don't watching football nearly as much as I used to.

The NAB Cup Grand Final was boring. I spent the second quarter talking to someone about cars.


I don't blame RL as he's doing what he thinks is right, and I believe it is the most effective style in terms of winning a flag.

He is there to win a premiership, not please the fans.

Come on OWTS, this seems like a rather pessimistic and fatalistic view for a young feller with a left-wing outlook on the world!!

I think that the boring style of play adopted by the Swans was pretty suitable for their list which - apart from Goodes, Hall, O'Loughlin and to some extent Kennelly and Schneider - is a fairly robotic bunch of athletes and hard workers.

Our list features a large number of higly expressive players: Gehrig, Riewoldt, Kosi, Mline, Dal, Harves, Lenny, Joey, X, Grammy, Goddard and even Goose and Chips to some extent. Some of our second stringers such as Fiora, Raph and Gwilt play an attacking style of game. And now we have Schneider as well, and the likes of Armo and Geary coming on.

I just can't see that basing our approach around stifling the play of our opponents could possibly be the best way to use the talent that RL has available to him. I strongly hope that those on here who believe that we are going to see a direct, attacking style of play in 2008 are right.

We will find out more on Saturday night.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Interesting thread.

Based on preseason, what I expect to see gameplan wise is:
-Plenty of flood/3qtr press. (was going on at the 2 games i saw live certainly)
-Attempts to run it out of the back 50, or a willingness to kick it to the HBF as an outlet if that doesn't work. Plenty of switching through the defensive 50 if the other team zones off.
-A willingness to run the corridor if that's where the ball ends up (Gram will certainly be there Saturday, and that's what he's been doing).
-If the ball rest in the HBF, look for long kicks to the wing. Reiwoldt has taken those marks in '07 and previously, if C. Gardiner is playing, he took plenty in preseason.
-Set plays out of the middle involving the wingers.
-Set plays from the kick in.
-Attempts to outsize our opponents in our forward 50.
-Hitouts to advantage.

We're still going to see a lot of teams try and succeed in bogging down the Saints game, and if our disposal by foot is poor, then yes - we will see a repeat of the game style of '07.

As opposed to preseason, Dal will be tagged, Gram will probably have a defensive forward nearby, or an opponent trying to drag him deep. While we won the preseason cup, we won 3 of those games by less than a goal.

There's more to learn than there is to expect at this point.

[Dan Warna]

I don't care as long as we win

we played ugly football and lost last year.

in the second half of the season we had a few bright spots but still I'd take a win over a loss, even if we did play pretty football.

winners are grinners.

phark the critics, win football.

the hawks game we lost was one of the ugliest games i've seen us play in, but if we'd taken the points i wouldn't have complained.

even to novices like me, you could see that hawthorn was adapting and we were not.

[joffaboy]

We will find out more on Saturday night.

I find it interesting that you are basing everything on one round, the opening round of 2008.

Did you base your opinion of R.Lyon on the opening round of 2007? Of course not.

Considering we are playing Sydney, you are attempting to get a gauge on how we will go throughout the year? This is indeed a very strange way to assess the whole gameplan and structure one would think. After all Sydney are the flood kings of AFL. Even the sainted Grant Thomas and his ever increasingly god like qualities in attaining the greatest attacking gameplan ever known to humankind struggled to get the attack going against Sydneys lock down style of play.

It would seem an agenda is in place here. mb has seen one praccy match but dismisses the views of others who have seen the intra club and three or four of the other praccy matches as being inconsequential....BUT everything hangs on one game.... the first game of the season mind you.

Really some people have to let go of their preconcieved ideas and boorish retrograde comparisions.

Why GT has to be brought up in the OP of an otherwise excellent thread is really dissapointing.

[bigcarl]

unless RL has rocks in his head (and i don't think he has) he will be emphasising quick and direct movement of the ball down to our quality big forwards in an attempt to put more goals on the board than we managed in 2007.

i made no secret that i didn't like the defensive gameplan and mindset we put on show in 2007.

but i decided to cut RL some slack after the men who removed gt from the club walked before they most certainly would have been booted from office in a vote. to me that levelled the score.

RL was thrown into the middle of a civil war between GT and RB factions when he arrived and that, along with the crippling injuries with which he had to contend, made his a very difficult initiation.

imo he starts with a clean slate and i'd be very surprised if we don't see a more attacking and direct style of play.

the emphasis should be on putting a winning score on the board and, importantly, we have the resources to do it.

tall forwards who are the envy of the competition, good crumbers, a solid ruck division, good onballers, a versatile defence ... and depth.

i can't see any real weaknesses.

[Oh When the Saints]

Haha thanks MB

I think the way we played against Geelong (when we pretty much had our full forwardline in) was hopefully/probably the best indication of how we will play this year.

I think RL likes to adapt when we play different teams - e.g. against Adelaide and Sydney, I think we will go for more of the "boring" style.
It makes for crap footy to watch, but it also means you are always in with a chance against the better sides.

Whereas against sides like Richmond, Carlton and West Coast I think we will go for a more attacking style.

[rodgerfox]

unless RL has rocks in his head (and i don't think he has) he will be emphasising quick and direct movement of the ball down to our quality big forwards in an attempt to put more goals on the board than we managed in 2007.

i made no secret that i didn't like the defensive gameplan and mindset we put on show in 2007.

but i decided to cut RL some slack after the men who removed gt from the club walked before they most certainly would have been booted from office in a vote. to me that levelled the score.

RL was thrown into the middle of a civil war between GT and RB factions when he arrived and that, along with the crippling injuries with which he had to contend, made his a very difficult initiation.

imo he starts with a clean slate and i'd be very surprised if we don't see a more attacking and direct style of play.

the emphasis should be on putting a winning score on the board and, importantly, we have the resources to do it.

tall forwards who are the envy of the competition, good crumbers, a solid ruck division, good onballers, a versatile defence ... and depth.

i can't see any real weaknesses.

What are your thoughts in the aftermath of Saturday's debacle BigCarl?

I know it's only R1, but Lyon is surely running out of excuses for the style of play we keep dishing up under him.

[bigcarl]

unless RL has rocks in his head (and i don't think he has) he will be emphasising quick and direct movement of the ball down to our quality big forwards in an attempt to put more goals on the board than we managed in 2007.

i made no secret that i didn't like the defensive gameplan and mindset we put on show in 2007.

but i decided to cut RL some slack after the men who removed gt from the club walked before they most certainly would have been booted from office in a vote. to me that levelled the score.

RL was thrown into the middle of a civil war between GT and RB factions when he arrived and that, along with the crippling injuries with which he had to contend, made his a very difficult initiation.

imo he starts with a clean slate and i'd be very surprised if we don't see a more attacking and direct style of play.

the emphasis should be on putting a winning score on the board and, importantly, we have the resources to do it.

tall forwards who are the envy of the competition, good crumbers, a solid ruck division, good onballers, a versatile defence ... and depth.

i can't see any real weaknesses.

What are your thoughts in the aftermath of Saturday's debacle BigCarl?

I know it's only R1, but Lyon is surely running out of excuses for the style of play we keep dishing up under him.

well i was glad we won but disappointed that sydney succeeded in making us play them at their own miserable and negative game.

we need to start dictating the terms ... especially at home and against less talented teams (imo) such as theirs.

i'm hoping we will see something different this saturday against the blues.

to me it is pretty simple.

long, quick and direct delivery to our tall and talented forward line. kick to a contest if necessary, especially if it is kosi one-out. plenty of crumbing opportunities for milne, schneider etc.

don't give them a chance to flood back.

i'd be getting bj back ASAP and put gram on an opposing wing where we can best employ their long kicking.

and don't become obsessed with the match-ups. sure, shut down their main play-makers, but otherwise encourage guys to take risks and play the type of bold and attacking football we know we're capable of.

i think fraser back in will be the first chance we've had to see our forward line in full flight and given quick and direct delivery to him, kosi and riewoldt the blues won't stand much of a chance.

personally i would have had young allen in for fraser on saturday (rather than fiora) ... simply to maintain the intimidating tall forward structure that worries our opponents and has had the papers talking us up all pre-season as premiership material.

perhaps allen's not ready yet but (imo) that tall forward structure will be our trump card this season and he might have snagged a couple against their third best tall defender.

[Oh When the Saints]

When there are a lot of behinds scored, the ball doesn't return to the centre often.

This means that there are a lot of kick-outs from respective backlines.

This leads to zoning and teams able to push numbers back very easily.

Hence the crap game we saw.


Had we kicked 12-13 goals from our 21 shots, the ball would have returned to the centre more often ... hence less opportunity for flooding ... hence a better game to watch.


Inaccurate kicking actually affects the style of play.

[bigcarl]

When there are a lot of behinds scored, the ball doesn't return to the centre often.

This means that there are a lot of kick-outs from respective backlines.

This leads to zoning and teams able to push numbers back very easily.

Hence the crap game we saw.


Had we kicked 12-13 goals from our 21 shots, the ball would have returned to the centre more often ... hence less opportunity for flooding ... hence a better game to watch.


Inaccurate kicking actually affects the style of play.

yes, you make a good point owts. we need some goal-kicking practice. hopefully we get some this saturday against the blues.

[sainters man]

Just wait til next week, you will start to see free flowing football.
Saturday night was sydney shutting the game down after quarter time so it wasnt a blow out.
Ross Lyon said after the match he wants to play more direct and free flowing ,and he always says its a "entertainment business".

Today on triple M, Danny Frawley said it was the swans fault on saturday night with the saints wanting to play quick footy but sydney denied it, so i think you will see a quicker sainters team next saturday night

[Trunch]

Style I would like to see on Saturday night.........

With Roo, Kosi and possibly G. I would like to see 16 goals or more kicked by the Saints.

We have shown the footy world we can play the shut down "ugly" footy but do our opponents fear our scoring ability. That fear, if their is any is all on paper. We have an amazing forward line but opposition still feel that they are in the game as we now have a history of low scoring.

Waste of time and money each contract year keeping the best tall forwards if we don't use them.

How would we play if we had no superstar tall forwards?
The same as we do now.
How would other sides like Dogs,Pies,Crows play if they had Kosi and Roo up front?

A solid defense is a must I understand but we need to kick more goals we our forward set up.

[bigcarl]

How would other sides like Dogs, Pies, Crows play if they had Kosi and Roo up front?

and don't forget gehrig. i'd hazard a guess that they would go long and direct and not get sucked into "shut down" mode,

[Iceman234]

How would other sides like Dogs, Pies, Crows play if they had Kosi and Roo up front?

and don't forget gehrig. i'd hazard a guess that they would go long and direct and not get sucked into "shut down" mode,

Against Carlton, with our streaming mids and our huge forward line (with G), under cover of the dome, perfect condition, I would think we fail if we kick less than 20 goals and they kick more than 12.

If we see what we saw last game and come out with less than a 30 point win against that rubbish, we will not be tracking well.

Yeah, it will be four points, but still....